My uncle plays with a jazz band and at the moment they play gigs where people supply the gear. However the time has come when he wants his own set up so he can advertise that they have it to hepfully get more work.
He asked my advice on what he needed to buy as he didnt really have a clue. So I was going through the peavey catalogue he had looking at the stuff and thought that the amps were quite reasonable. £600 for a 2*600watts 4ohm RMS 9 channel mixer. But it was the speakers that looked too costly so I offered to build the whole shebang (speakers) for him.
He needs to play sound to about 100 ppl and remember this is jazz and not a disco or night club thing so the demands for overall SPL are probably not going to be as high.
I recommended two 18" subs that have the monitors on top of them. Using 12" bass/miss in them with a compression driver for the topend. So in other words two bass bins with those "top hat" things with metal poles supporting the top bit.
Something like Eminence Omega Pro-18 18" for the bass bin, Delta Pro 12 for the bass/mid in the top bit, with a suitable high freq driver. I dont know anything about compression drivers so dont know where to start with regards to whats good and whats not, recommendations needed otherwise im shooting in the dark with what to choose.
Also whats the deal with power at these things. I would have thought active would be the best, but this adds on more amplifiers, if I were to go active how much power would be recommended for each driver?. I am no stranger to active xovers so building one is not going to be hard, but is it necessary. Do I want to design this as a three way using the sub bit just for bass duty? or a two way and a sub where both the 12" and the 18" do bass. Is baffle step necessary?
I am a very confident person when it comes to xover design and my ability to build the speakers etc, thats not the hard part. I just want to know what basic requirements are needed to make a good sounding PA set of speakers that will fill a 100 ppl space with jazz music.
So I want driver recommendations, if the mid and bass units I have selected are fine then thats no problem. Just the tweeter is needed again I dont have a clue with regards to that.
Active or passive - how much power would be needed with each 6*200 watts? active thats gonna get very loud with 95dB speakers. I would also be buying the amplifiers, I am confident in making them its just Im not confident they would be able to survive a PA environment. My speakers on the other hand you could jump on them and they woudnt break.
Thanks in advance Matt
He asked my advice on what he needed to buy as he didnt really have a clue. So I was going through the peavey catalogue he had looking at the stuff and thought that the amps were quite reasonable. £600 for a 2*600watts 4ohm RMS 9 channel mixer. But it was the speakers that looked too costly so I offered to build the whole shebang (speakers) for him.
He needs to play sound to about 100 ppl and remember this is jazz and not a disco or night club thing so the demands for overall SPL are probably not going to be as high.
I recommended two 18" subs that have the monitors on top of them. Using 12" bass/miss in them with a compression driver for the topend. So in other words two bass bins with those "top hat" things with metal poles supporting the top bit.
Something like Eminence Omega Pro-18 18" for the bass bin, Delta Pro 12 for the bass/mid in the top bit, with a suitable high freq driver. I dont know anything about compression drivers so dont know where to start with regards to whats good and whats not, recommendations needed otherwise im shooting in the dark with what to choose.
Also whats the deal with power at these things. I would have thought active would be the best, but this adds on more amplifiers, if I were to go active how much power would be recommended for each driver?. I am no stranger to active xovers so building one is not going to be hard, but is it necessary. Do I want to design this as a three way using the sub bit just for bass duty? or a two way and a sub where both the 12" and the 18" do bass. Is baffle step necessary?
I am a very confident person when it comes to xover design and my ability to build the speakers etc, thats not the hard part. I just want to know what basic requirements are needed to make a good sounding PA set of speakers that will fill a 100 ppl space with jazz music.
So I want driver recommendations, if the mid and bass units I have selected are fine then thats no problem. Just the tweeter is needed again I dont have a clue with regards to that.
Active or passive - how much power would be needed with each 6*200 watts? active thats gonna get very loud with 95dB speakers. I would also be buying the amplifiers, I am confident in making them its just Im not confident they would be able to survive a PA environment. My speakers on the other hand you could jump on them and they woudnt break.
Thanks in advance Matt
The sub / mid drivers will be fine. If you wanted to go all Eminence, then the PSD2002 1" compression driver is fine on a constant dirctivity flare (not sure what models Eminence have to offer here. Alternatively some of the P.Audio drivers would be ok, or the Peavey 22XT.
I would be inclined to run the top box passive, with a crossover around the 2 or 2.5kHz mark (with bulb type horn protection), and use active crossover to the sub boxes. Don't be tempted to let the 12s carry the same signal as the subs - crossover here could be around 150Hz or so.
Somehere around 400 - 450W per channel amp for top boxes, and 700 - 750W / channel for subs would work well
The metal pole between top hats is a good arrangement, and lets you couple the subs to the floor while still getting the top boxes up. The spacing will not be a problem in practise with a low crossover point.
Cheers
I would be inclined to run the top box passive, with a crossover around the 2 or 2.5kHz mark (with bulb type horn protection), and use active crossover to the sub boxes. Don't be tempted to let the 12s carry the same signal as the subs - crossover here could be around 150Hz or so.
Somehere around 400 - 450W per channel amp for top boxes, and 700 - 750W / channel for subs would work well
The metal pole between top hats is a good arrangement, and lets you couple the subs to the floor while still getting the top boxes up. The spacing will not be a problem in practise with a low crossover point.
Cheers
I take it we are talking 400/700 watts into 8ohms and not 4ohms. Having a look at PA amps they all seem to mainly specify the 4ohm rating as the main spec, I know this is probably just marketing hype but still. Its just to me 400/700 seems like an awful lot. Our school had a peavey set up like I described, and this ran off a 200 watt sereo amp and filled the room which was about 15*30 meters. I would have thought something like 250 on the top and say 400 on the bottom would be enough. Obviously Im not in any position to really talk about this. 4*80 and 2*200 gets my room cooking 3*4 meters, and this is with 83dB sens speakers.
If I really will need all that power then just tell me and I'll tell him, but I dont think the kit they have been using is anywhere near as "powerful" as that.
If I really will need all that power then just tell me and I'll tell him, but I dont think the kit they have been using is anywhere near as "powerful" as that.
Hi Matt.
To be honest, I find the 18" way overkill.
A good 15" will suffice, and Your uncle will prefere the size and price of the 15" to the 18" !!
It's only about 100 ppl, not a stadium ;o) (yet)
A cheap but good and capable supplement, capable of making it on it's own, could be a 60 litre box, tuned to 40hZ, with a Beyma 12G125 and a Bayma CP-385 Nd/TD245, with an asymetric (6dB/oct. LP - 18dB/oct. HP) x-over at around 2,5kHz.
I have good experience with the 12G125 in this configuration, although with another "tweeter", but the CP-385 Nd has revieved very good reviews lately.
To be honest, I find the 18" way overkill.
A good 15" will suffice, and Your uncle will prefere the size and price of the 15" to the 18" !!
It's only about 100 ppl, not a stadium ;o) (yet)
A cheap but good and capable supplement, capable of making it on it's own, could be a 60 litre box, tuned to 40hZ, with a Beyma 12G125 and a Bayma CP-385 Nd/TD245, with an asymetric (6dB/oct. LP - 18dB/oct. HP) x-over at around 2,5kHz.
I have good experience with the 12G125 in this configuration, although with another "tweeter", but the CP-385 Nd has revieved very good reviews lately.
The general PA rule of thumb is around 6W to 10W per person in the audience when spec-ing a system, so you should have loads of headroom with your planned system and Centauri's suggestions. However, as this is for a Jazz band, I think you could probably get away with just the one sub per side. Stick with the two top boxes per side as this will be useful for spreading the sound around in difficult venues.
reply
The Eminence Omega pro 18 will be fine for sub bass/bass or even better the Magnum 18LF.
If you want a smaller more portable sub use the Kappa pro 15LF or the Omega pro 15.
The Delta Pro 12 is fine for midrange.
I personally don't like the PSD2002 comp driver so a Fane/Beyma/B&C compression driver would be better.
Build the cabinets out of 18mm birch plywood and use something like hammerite matt black paint.And also brace the cabinets well,and put metal ball corners on them,and the cabinets will last decades!
The mixer amp would be underpowering them as the Omega is 800w rms,Delta 12 is 400w rms,and 1 inch horns are around 40w-100w rms depending on how high you cross them over.
So you could use the mixer/amp to power the mid/highs and buy a seperate amp to drive the lows like the Crown Macrotech MA3600VZ OR MA5000VZ [get them 2nd hand as they are expensive new].
Also if you use an active crossover,still use a high pass passive filter on the tweeter horns.As they are easy to blow,and even switch on thumps can fry them.Thats why you use a passive high pass filter to protect the HF in an active system.
Good luck!!!!!!
And a picture of the amps
The Eminence Omega pro 18 will be fine for sub bass/bass or even better the Magnum 18LF.
If you want a smaller more portable sub use the Kappa pro 15LF or the Omega pro 15.
The Delta Pro 12 is fine for midrange.
I personally don't like the PSD2002 comp driver so a Fane/Beyma/B&C compression driver would be better.
Build the cabinets out of 18mm birch plywood and use something like hammerite matt black paint.And also brace the cabinets well,and put metal ball corners on them,and the cabinets will last decades!
The mixer amp would be underpowering them as the Omega is 800w rms,Delta 12 is 400w rms,and 1 inch horns are around 40w-100w rms depending on how high you cross them over.
So you could use the mixer/amp to power the mid/highs and buy a seperate amp to drive the lows like the Crown Macrotech MA3600VZ OR MA5000VZ [get them 2nd hand as they are expensive new].
Also if you use an active crossover,still use a high pass passive filter on the tweeter horns.As they are easy to blow,and even switch on thumps can fry them.Thats why you use a passive high pass filter to protect the HF in an active system.
Good luck!!!!!!
And a picture of the amps
Attachments
JMO here for some things to consider :
First you need to ascertain what will be going through the PA,
if the whole band is miked up including drums and bass or
sometimes for smaller venues are they unPA'd.
If so ideally the sub should be optional, IMO a good 15" would
be fine. The main speakers a good 12" and good medium sized
horn c/o at 1.5Khz should be fine.
Also note a 9 channel mixer is not much at all when
you are miking up a drum kit, so check on this also.
Your microphone set up, cables and stands is not going to be cheap.
You also need to consider monitoring requirements, ask them if
they need them, how many, and whats put through them.
IMO baffle step is neccessary and is usually ignored, as is the
tendency for PA drivers to have excessive midrange. You should
be able to build a far nicer sounding "rig" than the run of the mill
stuff if you stick to basic loudspeaker principles.
You could consider a 4 ohm MTM 10" 2 way with BSC, c/o ~ 1.5Khz,
sreten.
First you need to ascertain what will be going through the PA,
if the whole band is miked up including drums and bass or
sometimes for smaller venues are they unPA'd.
If so ideally the sub should be optional, IMO a good 15" would
be fine. The main speakers a good 12" and good medium sized
horn c/o at 1.5Khz should be fine.
Also note a 9 channel mixer is not much at all when
you are miking up a drum kit, so check on this also.
Your microphone set up, cables and stands is not going to be cheap.
You also need to consider monitoring requirements, ask them if
they need them, how many, and whats put through them.
IMO baffle step is neccessary and is usually ignored, as is the
tendency for PA drivers to have excessive midrange. You should
be able to build a far nicer sounding "rig" than the run of the mill
stuff if you stick to basic loudspeaker principles.
You could consider a 4 ohm MTM 10" 2 way with BSC, c/o ~ 1.5Khz,
sreten.
OK there will be no drums its a gypsy jazz style thing as per matin taylor or django.
This will incluse a sax, two guitars, keyboards and a bass. Nothing over the top. I also had a chat to him about this and I didnt fully understand his requirements. This is not to play as a concert, its music for events to provide live music whilst people can talk.
Also quite a lot of the time it will just be my uncle and a mate playing two guitars, as in no bass. So I thought that it would make sense to use the two way top thing as a full range so for the smaller venues they could just use that on a stand. But when the whole lot let together use the bass bins and an active xover to take the bass off the two way and the mids off the bass.
Yes you are right an 18" will probably be ovekill and he will be much happier using a 15" with regards to size. All this has to fit in an esate ford mondeo.
So now im thinking the same 12" I originally stated, a good compression device as per recommendations and a 15" driver to do bass.
Sreten you have a good point when mentioning monitoring, he did mention something about this. He is going to ask the guy he usually gets equipment off when he needs to about the spec of that to give me some idea of the requirements with regards to SPL. Again I dont think 400 + 700 watts is needed for background music at events.
This will incluse a sax, two guitars, keyboards and a bass. Nothing over the top. I also had a chat to him about this and I didnt fully understand his requirements. This is not to play as a concert, its music for events to provide live music whilst people can talk.
Also quite a lot of the time it will just be my uncle and a mate playing two guitars, as in no bass. So I thought that it would make sense to use the two way top thing as a full range so for the smaller venues they could just use that on a stand. But when the whole lot let together use the bass bins and an active xover to take the bass off the two way and the mids off the bass.
Yes you are right an 18" will probably be ovekill and he will be much happier using a 15" with regards to size. All this has to fit in an esate ford mondeo.
So now im thinking the same 12" I originally stated, a good compression device as per recommendations and a 15" driver to do bass.
Sreten you have a good point when mentioning monitoring, he did mention something about this. He is going to ask the guy he usually gets equipment off when he needs to about the spec of that to give me some idea of the requirements with regards to SPL. Again I dont think 400 + 700 watts is needed for background music at events.
In that case, I would go for a pair of 15" plus horn boxes passively crossed over, driven by a 2x300w amp. Keep it simple and small. If they need some more bottom end, you could build a couple of extra 15"s at a later date.
If you build the top boxes wedge shape, you could build a couple identical extra as monitors.
If you build the top boxes wedge shape, you could build a couple identical extra as monitors.
The amp size suggestions I made before would be good match for the capabilities of the drivers mentioned, but would probably be more than you need - your suggestion of 250/400W would probably be fine.
In this case, some of the lower powered Eminence drivers could save a bit more cash. For the sub(s), if you wanted to go 15", and where there is not a big demand on this area, the stamped frame Kappa15 can give lower bottom end than the cast versions and they sound quite nice. Again, for the mids, the pro version is probably not warranted, and even the Gamma12 might be a possiblity.
If you like pinkmouse's suggestion of two top boxes per side, which would be quite usefull, then even the Beta10 in each could do quite well (as well as adding to 4 ohms for better use of the power amp).
Cheers
In this case, some of the lower powered Eminence drivers could save a bit more cash. For the sub(s), if you wanted to go 15", and where there is not a big demand on this area, the stamped frame Kappa15 can give lower bottom end than the cast versions and they sound quite nice. Again, for the mids, the pro version is probably not warranted, and even the Gamma12 might be a possiblity.
If you like pinkmouse's suggestion of two top boxes per side, which would be quite usefull, then even the Beta10 in each could do quite well (as well as adding to 4 ohms for better use of the power amp).
Cheers
As a further note, I usually tend to steer away from 15" + horn combinations, as most 15" speakers have performance issues trying to get to high frequencies (there are exceptions like the EV 15L for instance), which requires using 2" compression drivers and crossover points well within the vocal range - two aspects I have grown to dislike. For jazz especially, I would be aiming for clarity.
Cheers
Cheers
This all sounds more positive as time goes on
I was also under the impression that the pro units would sound better then the cheaper versions. Do they all sound similar but can just handle more power? Im after a good sound too not just SPL.
Im not sure that a lack of bass would be the problem, maybe four 12" speakers would be better, two used for smaller venues and four used at larger gatherings.
By the sounds of things they use two monitors with 15" for all of them.
Ill have to wait and see what they use now and what they will require. But untill then you lot have given me lots of good advice and food for thought on what drivers to use.
Cheers Matt
I was also under the impression that the pro units would sound better then the cheaper versions. Do they all sound similar but can just handle more power? Im after a good sound too not just SPL.
Im not sure that a lack of bass would be the problem, maybe four 12" speakers would be better, two used for smaller venues and four used at larger gatherings.
By the sounds of things they use two monitors with 15" for all of them.
Ill have to wait and see what they use now and what they will require. But untill then you lot have given me lots of good advice and food for thought on what drivers to use.
Cheers Matt
PA requirements
Please see my post in Paulinators thread on hifi PA.
IMHO and 20 years of PA'ing for all types of bands, mainly jazz now, a parametric with variable Q and +/- at least 18db pref 24db is needed to get adequate control over horns particularly with a sax, trumpet.
This followed from an early eighties article in Internal Musician and Recording World where Maryland as state of the art PA suppliers had calculated that with FFT analysis a five channel parametric could virtually guarantee to sort out all PA/venue issues.
The systems mentioned are definite overkill for most venues if the audience still want to hear themselves talk.
Simon
Please see my post in Paulinators thread on hifi PA.
IMHO and 20 years of PA'ing for all types of bands, mainly jazz now, a parametric with variable Q and +/- at least 18db pref 24db is needed to get adequate control over horns particularly with a sax, trumpet.
This followed from an early eighties article in Internal Musician and Recording World where Maryland as state of the art PA suppliers had calculated that with FFT analysis a five channel parametric could virtually guarantee to sort out all PA/venue issues.
The systems mentioned are definite overkill for most venues if the audience still want to hear themselves talk.
Simon
pinkmouse said:
I agree 100%. The tried and true is still is a very good starting point and offers easy expandability.
I always thought, the fewer the drivers AND the fewer different drivers you use, the better. My system is dual 15's in one cabinet and single 15 with comp tweeter through big horns in the other cabinets. Is very nice to listen to whether you are 15 feet or 150 feet away
As my friends keep telling me...
K.I.S.S.
Cal
The pro versions are about handling lots of power, and they
also have parameters which restrict excursion at low frequencies
to achieve power handling, a high power 10" doesn't do bass.
Sound quality is a moot point and a contentious issue,
as is power handling and sound coverage.
IMO 50W stereo valve for the tops would be more than
enough with high efficiency and sound very nice to boot
- but unfortunately most second hand valve kit is mono.
So I'd say a 100W per channel powered desk would be fine.
Vertical 4 x 8's + vertical tweeter array can sound nice with
a good horizontal spread. Presumably due to BSC the ones
I've come across are quit wide and not deep, but this is
a route to superior midrange.
As is the Peavey 6x6, used in a 2 x 3 array, with the left and
right pairs angled underneath a largish quality treble horn,
though this unit is really a top unit only designed to be used
with an additional bass cab, or on its own for vocals and guitar
etc only, not keyboards.
I'd suggest midrange quality is an issue here over the
more normal "rock" requirements of earsplitting SPL's.
4 Audax AP210G6's would be 6ohm, around 98dB/W
and with 5mm excursion (+/- 2.5mm) compare more
than favourably with a 100w 15" PA bass unit,
without the midrange being all over the place.
£13 each when 5 or more from Maplins.
I'll let you work out the alignments possible.
Rated as a 100 Watts they'd be fine IMO.
Once you decide your not going to use the typical rise in
midrange output of a PA driver, or put 300W through it
their major advantages begin to dissappear.
The typical rise is 10dB or more and for small cabinets
if you add baffle step it typically reaches around 15dB
or more, any wonder a typical unit with simply a piezo
added in parallel sounds awful ?
Food for thought ?
Just seems to me your still building a "rock" PA.
sreten.
also have parameters which restrict excursion at low frequencies
to achieve power handling, a high power 10" doesn't do bass.
Sound quality is a moot point and a contentious issue,
as is power handling and sound coverage.
IMO 50W stereo valve for the tops would be more than
enough with high efficiency and sound very nice to boot
- but unfortunately most second hand valve kit is mono.
So I'd say a 100W per channel powered desk would be fine.
Vertical 4 x 8's + vertical tweeter array can sound nice with
a good horizontal spread. Presumably due to BSC the ones
I've come across are quit wide and not deep, but this is
a route to superior midrange.
As is the Peavey 6x6, used in a 2 x 3 array, with the left and
right pairs angled underneath a largish quality treble horn,
though this unit is really a top unit only designed to be used
with an additional bass cab, or on its own for vocals and guitar
etc only, not keyboards.
I'd suggest midrange quality is an issue here over the
more normal "rock" requirements of earsplitting SPL's.
4 Audax AP210G6's would be 6ohm, around 98dB/W
and with 5mm excursion (+/- 2.5mm) compare more
than favourably with a 100w 15" PA bass unit,
without the midrange being all over the place.
£13 each when 5 or more from Maplins.
I'll let you work out the alignments possible.
Rated as a 100 Watts they'd be fine IMO.
Once you decide your not going to use the typical rise in
midrange output of a PA driver, or put 300W through it
their major advantages begin to dissappear.
The typical rise is 10dB or more and for small cabinets
if you add baffle step it typically reaches around 15dB
or more, any wonder a typical unit with simply a piezo
added in parallel sounds awful ?
Food for thought ?
Just seems to me your still building a "rock" PA.
sreten.
Interesting idea sreten. A couple of things that would worry me about the AP210 drivers though, are the power handing and the general robustness.
I know that Audax are usually pretty conservative about power rating, so the rated 50W, ( from what I remember!), might well be OK, but the APs use plastic baskets, so I would worry about them being thrown in and out of cars and venues. From what I remember, the magnet is pretty heavy, so it might not take much of a knock to missalign something.
But I do still like the concept though, I will start thinking about other possible drivers!
I know that Audax are usually pretty conservative about power rating, so the rated 50W, ( from what I remember!), might well be OK, but the APs use plastic baskets, so I would worry about them being thrown in and out of cars and venues. From what I remember, the magnet is pretty heavy, so it might not take much of a knock to missalign something.
But I do still like the concept though, I will start thinking about other possible drivers!
I am also interested in sretens idea too, that sounds like it would sound much better with jazz. What was the idea to do a line array with horn to the side running vertically like a ribbon would?
I also dont think my uncle will "throw" anything around but I take your point about the poly basket. The nice thing about the audax units is they are cheap. Using vifa's or peerless drivers would cost a whole heap more.
I also dont think my uncle will "throw" anything around but I take your point about the poly basket. The nice thing about the audax units is they are cheap. Using vifa's or peerless drivers would cost a whole heap more.
A line array would give yuo nice horizontal dispersion, but you would need to bear in mind the directivity of the horn. It would need to have the long axis horizontal to give matching coverage. A 2x2 array might give the most compact box, with the horn on top, or maybe an MTM, again a design that could be used as a monitor wedge, because dispersion is not so imprtant in the near field, the fact that the horn was the wrong way up would not be a problem.
pinkmouse said:Interesting idea sreten. A couple of things that would worry me about the AP210 drivers though, are the power handing and the general robustness.
I know that Audax are usually pretty conservative about power rating, so the rated 50W, ( from what I remember!), might well be OK, but the APs use plastic baskets, so I would worry about them being thrown in and out of cars and venues. From what I remember, the magnet is pretty heavy, so it might not take much of a knock to missalign something.
But I do still like the concept though, I will start thinking about other possible drivers!
Power Handling :
I sold some sealed box speakers around 20L using an 8" 50W
Audax bass unit from Maplins to an utter party animal years
ago. As far as I know they are still going strong after years
of full graphic bass boost, extra bass button and house music.
Robustness :
You can always regard the plastic chassis as having some shock
absorbing properties, they can't get bent like cheap steel chassis.
sreten.- Status
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