Re: It goes to 11. 
Very cool, looking forward to that controller!
So....any pictures of the inside of that amp?
Russ White said:So just for fun I made my controller for BUF32S measure volume from 0 to 11 in 128 steps.
And yes it does show the actual sample rate of the source that is selected.
Very cool, looking forward to that controller!
So....any pictures of the inside of that amp?
bear said:
Hi Bear,
We discussed this a few pages ago.
Square waves don't exist in real world sound. The response of a DAC and filter to a square wave is an academic exercise.
So it really doesn't matter. One can't draw any real conclusions about fidelity when looking at the overshoot on square waves. All sampled systems will have overshoot.
If the slew rate is really lousy, that may be a good indicator that something is wrong.
Digital audio shouldn't have square waves.
Unless you listen to the same stuff as Brian
rossl said:
Yeah - you said the same before but I cannot help thinking that if a square wave i/p came out looking more like a 100khz sine and less like a 10khz sine the real music played through same system would a bit more life like.
I love the sound of this DAC I can really relax & enjoy the music - even classical - and I've been waiting for that for a ling time, but I am aware that the sound is a little more smoothed off & comfortable sounding the real live music - and I do suspect that the loss of HF response is responsible for this.
rossl - for those of us who do not understand digital as clearly as you can you explain what we would need to do to achieve what I describe above i.e. - not square waves but lease faster rise times that we see with the waves forms we measured earlier.
Is that remotely possible with music recorded with 44.1khz sampling. I was under the perhaps misguided assumption that if oversampling was employed one benefit would be a higher upper frequency limit but from what you say it seems like I might be wrong.
thx mike
Russ White said:What does an analog drum hit look like? I doubt it's a square wave.
yeah but a cymbal being struck or any metallic resonant object could well have a much faster leading edge than the sabre can manage at present and I believe that we should be aiming to reproduce those transients as closely as we can.
cheers
mike
Russ White said:
You have only seen the output from one Sabre.
But I agree, I wonder if a 1Khz square wave at 192khz sample rate might look a lot more, er square.
Cheers!
Russ
Well Russ three of us posted waves and they all looked identical so are we all to expect a surprise from someone else's sabre24 ?
mmm 96khz or 192khz . . . ok . . . perhaps that is the only answer
I said in a earlier post that it really doesn't matter.
I could be wrong,
but...
If I were to build a DAC and test it,
the square wave performance would be behind a lot of other fidelity tests.
I believe the source recording will limit the bandwidth and the Sabre will not. Provided the MCLK is high enough.
I could be wrong,
but...
If I were to build a DAC and test it,
the square wave performance would be behind a lot of other fidelity tests.
I believe the source recording will limit the bandwidth and the Sabre will not. Provided the MCLK is high enough.
mikelm said:
That is my point.
The filters are not the same between the ES9008, and the ES9018.
When I said one Sabre I meant one type.Also, your exactly right about sample rate. Your not going to get faithful(analog like) reproduction of the higher octaves (or slew rates) at 44.1khz.
Cheers!
Russ
Re: It goes to 11.
Yes, I knew there was something I was going to mention on the TP thread about this controller and you just reminded me. I was going to suggest it would be best for many families of those addicted to building bits of HiFi, for the volume to go from '0' (no volume) and up in numbers, rather than the standard -17.5db (no volume) to zero (max volume) scale.
Spooky, I think I only dreamt this a few nights ago... same name... must be some sort of delayed telepathic link ;-)
Russ
Russ White said:So just for fun I made my controller for BUF32S measure volume from 0 to 11 in 128 steps.
And yes it does show the actual sample rate of the source that is selected.
Yes, I knew there was something I was going to mention on the TP thread about this controller and you just reminded me. I was going to suggest it would be best for many families of those addicted to building bits of HiFi, for the volume to go from '0' (no volume) and up in numbers, rather than the standard -17.5db (no volume) to zero (max volume) scale.
Spooky, I think I only dreamt this a few nights ago... same name... must be some sort of delayed telepathic link ;-)
Russ
Russ White said:
You have only seen the output from one Sabre.
But I agree, I wonder if a 1Khz square wave at 192khz sample rate might look a lot more, er square.
Cheers!
Russ
Russ, please do post what it ought to look like.
Also, perhaps you or someone else involved in the ESS development would know or can provide a look at a lower frequency square wave - as I am interested if the frequency of the overshoot is a function of the input frequency or not??
If you compare the Sabre's overshoot shape to the posted BB you see that the BB is sinusoidal, whereas the Sabre is sharp. The harmonic consequences are different. This is why I am interested.
I'm impressed by the flatness of the waveform other than the overshoot, and merely thinking about the harmonic consequences (if any) of the observed overshoot. Read nothing into what I am saying to mean good or bad.
Afaik, there is no way to make everything "perfect" in the world of 44.1kHz recordings - it's just a matter of which compromise(s) are acceptable.
_-_-bear
bear said:
Bear,
I have a couple suggestions for you. I mean these kindly.
1) You should be directing most of your questions to Dustin and ESS. They are very nice people. I honestly don't have all the knowledge you are seeking.
2) Borrow, build, or buy one for yourself and try it out. Then you can measure and listen to anything you like.
I and I assume others have no compunction or time to satisfy your curiosity, or I would have by now. Still, I for one hope you do find satisfaction for whatever it is which is driving your search.
Since your questions pertain to the behavior of the ESS chip itself, you should really be talking to the ESS people. I would start by asking Dustin to post his thoughts and design choices on the over sampling filter and it's effects on square waves. Then perhaps he will be generous enough to post scope shots of the chip producing square waves at different sample rates. It would also be good to put the scope both directly at the DAC's output with no I/V stage, and at the output of an I/V stage just to be sure there is no contribution from the output stage.
On a side note. One of the reasons I posted that people had only seen the ES9008 so far is that the OSF on the ES9018 is different, and more importantly it is customizable.
So you can probably change that response to suit you if it does not already. Cheers!
Russ
Russ,
Sure... I'd be happy to get in touch with Dustin himself, would you please email me with his email address - one that he will read?
Please email me via my www link below... just click on the email link on the main page. Tnx.
As far as asking questions here, quite frankly I am surprised by the responses on this thread. You can contrast this with the discussions (for example) of some very subtle design issues in many of the threads in the Solid State section.
But as I mentioned earlier I am somewhat surprised that the moderators have permitted the amount of technical discussion so far, since this is supposedly the area for discussion of product sales and availablilty not implementation and customization. But what do I know?
As far as getting one and testing it myself, well, my knee jerk response to that would not be so pleasant if I had posted it.
As I mentioned someone I know has bought the Twisted Pair implementation of the ESS chip. So, I would have figured that given that there are likely a lot of folks in this thread who also have bought or built up the DAC that there just might possibly be some interest, and/or a person with a 'scope around. Would save the step of "reinventing the wheel" and having to buy it myself and go through all the work involved to find out something about it that is fairly simple. Guess not...
Some say ignorance is bliss...
Whatever.
_-_-bear
Sure... I'd be happy to get in touch with Dustin himself, would you please email me with his email address - one that he will read?
Please email me via my www link below... just click on the email link on the main page. Tnx.
As far as asking questions here, quite frankly I am surprised by the responses on this thread. You can contrast this with the discussions (for example) of some very subtle design issues in many of the threads in the Solid State section.
But as I mentioned earlier I am somewhat surprised that the moderators have permitted the amount of technical discussion so far, since this is supposedly the area for discussion of product sales and availablilty not implementation and customization. But what do I know?
As far as getting one and testing it myself, well, my knee jerk response to that would not be so pleasant if I had posted it.
As I mentioned someone I know has bought the Twisted Pair implementation of the ESS chip. So, I would have figured that given that there are likely a lot of folks in this thread who also have bought or built up the DAC that there just might possibly be some interest, and/or a person with a 'scope around. Would save the step of "reinventing the wheel" and having to buy it myself and go through all the work involved to find out something about it that is fairly simple. Guess not...
Some say ignorance is bliss...
Whatever.
_-_-bear
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