After a long time of using only cast hole cutters I had some success making a hole size over 5" with my simple tools and a better router bit. The process went pretty smoothly even on some rugged chipboard stuff.
So with my new found skill I feel better about moving up to one of the 6.5 in Fostex. Can someone give some measures for this?
I have been doing my research and scouted around for some of the
completed projects by Martin and Bob Brines.
This test box would emulate the succesful design by GM for the FE127e and shown at zilla speak.
The difference between what's available and what I would build
is that the port goes on the bottom. I find the arrangement of
MLTL on a small stand with port exposed and extended at the
bottom to be most satisfying.
Also I think that getting the width greater than the depth will give a larger and better front baffle without going to a suprabaffle doubling the hole depth.
One possibility would be driver off set of center to achieve the 'wing effect' that Jeff (Godzilla) was experimenting with.
Unfortunately I have not worked the Mathcad program by MJK.
So with my new found skill I feel better about moving up to one of the 6.5 in Fostex. Can someone give some measures for this?
I have been doing my research and scouted around for some of the
completed projects by Martin and Bob Brines.
This test box would emulate the succesful design by GM for the FE127e and shown at zilla speak.
The difference between what's available and what I would build
is that the port goes on the bottom. I find the arrangement of
MLTL on a small stand with port exposed and extended at the
bottom to be most satisfying.
Also I think that getting the width greater than the depth will give a larger and better front baffle without going to a suprabaffle doubling the hole depth.
One possibility would be driver off set of center to achieve the 'wing effect' that Jeff (Godzilla) was experimenting with.
Unfortunately I have not worked the Mathcad program by MJK.
Re: Re: Box variations on the MLTL for the Fostex FE167e
Well whatever you come up with for the FE167e in MLTL. I did a search but the searches turned up other drivers and the Brines MLTL.
Other thing I noticed is that Bob's and Martins MLTL's have the driver
positioned higher than the design you made for the FE127e.
Right now I'm putting together a test box from scraps with my practice cut-out. Haven't ordered the speaker yet. And yes I'm still using one MLTL and one BIB asymmetrically.
The goal for me is to get driver and port tube terminus near ear height using the small stand system I've done with the FE127e:
bottom exiting port with tube extended through the top of the
stand/platform. There is no theory for this, just personal preference and making do with what comes to hand.
Speculating on this asymmetrical build style, if I had one FE167e MLTL, I could add a FF165 BIB build per Jeff's suggestion that the
165 is best in a BIB. But one thing at a time.
GM said:
Well whatever you come up with for the FE167e in MLTL. I did a search but the searches turned up other drivers and the Brines MLTL.
Other thing I noticed is that Bob's and Martins MLTL's have the driver
positioned higher than the design you made for the FE127e.
Right now I'm putting together a test box from scraps with my practice cut-out. Haven't ordered the speaker yet. And yes I'm still using one MLTL and one BIB asymmetrically.
The goal for me is to get driver and port tube terminus near ear height using the small stand system I've done with the FE127e:
bottom exiting port with tube extended through the top of the
stand/platform. There is no theory for this, just personal preference and making do with what comes to hand.
Speculating on this asymmetrical build style, if I had one FE167e MLTL, I could add a FF165 BIB build per Jeff's suggestion that the
165 is best in a BIB. But one thing at a time.
>>> I could add a FF165 BIB build per Jeff's suggestion that the
165 is best in a BIB.
I am not sure the 165k is best in a BIB. It's a great choice but there are others equally excellent.
If you were going to continue with your asymmetrical build style it would likely be best to use the same drivers. Interesting idea actually. I can imagine a BIB in one corner, a MLTL against the wall sitting near a sub...
165 is best in a BIB.
I am not sure the 165k is best in a BIB. It's a great choice but there are others equally excellent.
If you were going to continue with your asymmetrical build style it would likely be best to use the same drivers. Interesting idea actually. I can imagine a BIB in one corner, a MLTL against the wall sitting near a sub...
did you want mayo on that?
Hi Jeff,
The only subs I have are made with bread.
The BIB gives excellent low frequencies for my usage. We mentioned before how good those low piano notes ring from the BIB.
With this in mind, I always position the MLTL to the left and the BIB to the right as a piano would be positioned in the soundstage. So highs and mids left of center and bass notes right of center. I do all this listening and building alone so it may all be hooey.
The only subs I have ever heard is that junk sold with computers. It was not much of a musical experience. And that experience was extremely brief.
On the high end, I've wondered what the orchestra range is. I have wanted to complete another MLTL with a 5 inch Tangband which is not a full ranger. I'm dodging talking about that so the post doesn't get moved-- again. But in general TB's use more power than a high efficiency Fostex. That was my experience with the W3 871 anyway.
Hi Jeff,
The only subs I have are made with bread.
The BIB gives excellent low frequencies for my usage. We mentioned before how good those low piano notes ring from the BIB.
With this in mind, I always position the MLTL to the left and the BIB to the right as a piano would be positioned in the soundstage. So highs and mids left of center and bass notes right of center. I do all this listening and building alone so it may all be hooey.
The only subs I have ever heard is that junk sold with computers. It was not much of a musical experience. And that experience was extremely brief.
On the high end, I've wondered what the orchestra range is. I have wanted to complete another MLTL with a 5 inch Tangband which is not a full ranger. I'm dodging talking about that so the post doesn't get moved-- again. But in general TB's use more power than a high efficiency Fostex. That was my experience with the W3 871 anyway.
Bob Brines said:
I have not made much progress over time in design admittedly. But I still like the company here.
The Brines MLTL looks more like the Alpha TL only with a port.
I got the idea that positioning the driver -- I think it's 1/3 down --gave the fullness of sound I've come to appreciate with it. And that on a wider baffle with shallow depth.
Today I've begun whacking together a test box. I am getting the yen to buy something from Madisound-- too bad I can't just go down there and pick up an order.
>>> I am getting the yen to buy something from Madisound-- too bad I can't just go down there and pick up an order.
Yes, it makes it more difficult to hide what you've spent on drivers from the wife!
Yes, TB will be less efficient but that does not mean they sound any less good overall. Some even prefer their sound to Fostex.
As for subs... i knew a shockingly beautiful girl that used to work at a nearby Subway. If someone picked up my order she would call me on the phone to tell me she made my sandwich. She was Indian, trying to make money so she could continue going to school in the USA. Her friends coaxed her into entering a modeling competition and without any experience she went down the catwalk and took second place. Later that year her uncle in India found her a husband to marry. She went back to India and never was heard from again.
We complain about not being able to hear drivers before we buy... imagine not being able to meet your husband before you marry him? As far as i'm concerned, the guy got to marry a Feastrex! Imagine that showing up on your doorstep.
Enough about subs...
Yes, it makes it more difficult to hide what you've spent on drivers from the wife!
Yes, TB will be less efficient but that does not mean they sound any less good overall. Some even prefer their sound to Fostex.
As for subs... i knew a shockingly beautiful girl that used to work at a nearby Subway. If someone picked up my order she would call me on the phone to tell me she made my sandwich. She was Indian, trying to make money so she could continue going to school in the USA. Her friends coaxed her into entering a modeling competition and without any experience she went down the catwalk and took second place. Later that year her uncle in India found her a husband to marry. She went back to India and never was heard from again.
We complain about not being able to hear drivers before we buy... imagine not being able to meet your husband before you marry him? As far as i'm concerned, the guy got to marry a Feastrex! Imagine that showing up on your doorstep.
Enough about subs...
Re: Re: Re: Box variations on the MLTL for the Fostex FE167e
Yes, I place the driver based on a length to CSA ratio to minimize anomalies in the driver's acoustic phase. Whether the differences between the two design paradigms is audible or at least subjectively different I can't say since I'm an 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' type.
Anyway, the sim I initially published is somewhat larger for the same tuning than BB's AFAIK, so you may want to use his if it's available:
L = 56"
CSA = 85.168"^2
zdriver = 19.75"
dport = 4"
Lport = 1.5"
Recommend spacing the cab up between 1.25 - 3.375" if bottom vented, otherwise locate it near/at the bottom.
GM
loninappleton said:
Yes, I place the driver based on a length to CSA ratio to minimize anomalies in the driver's acoustic phase. Whether the differences between the two design paradigms is audible or at least subjectively different I can't say since I'm an 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' type.
Anyway, the sim I initially published is somewhat larger for the same tuning than BB's AFAIK, so you may want to use his if it's available:
L = 56"
CSA = 85.168"^2
zdriver = 19.75"
dport = 4"
Lport = 1.5"
Recommend spacing the cab up between 1.25 - 3.375" if bottom vented, otherwise locate it near/at the bottom.
GM
GM said:
I seem to recall this one just a bit or something similar. Thanks for putting it in here.
I have renewed my acquaintanceship with Madisound and know that it will be about $75 ea. to order.
The test box I'm making is nearly finished. It is larger than that for the 127e but way smaller than a floor stander in the 56 in range.
When I go ahead with a more finished piece from what you've given, what is the suggestion for driver offset, if any?
This time I'll put your sim in a safe place and not lose it.
How is the housebuilding going?
How can I calc it without the inside length and CSA?
It's stillborn except for some minor repairs I can ~safely handle alone thanks to a number of folks who said they were going to help, then that was the last I heard from them and with my retirement account in the toilet like so many other retirees, there's no hope of me doing any major repairs any time soon without risking running out of money if I don't die relatively young.
Since I'm burned out on being just a 'talking head' on the forums, I'm considering converting a bedroom into a wood shop, so I can DIY again now that I have a little disposable income to buy new saw blades, etc..
Thanks for asking though.
GM
It's stillborn except for some minor repairs I can ~safely handle alone thanks to a number of folks who said they were going to help, then that was the last I heard from them and with my retirement account in the toilet like so many other retirees, there's no hope of me doing any major repairs any time soon without risking running out of money if I don't die relatively young.
Since I'm burned out on being just a 'talking head' on the forums, I'm considering converting a bedroom into a wood shop, so I can DIY again now that I have a little disposable income to buy new saw blades, etc..
Thanks for asking though.
GM
GM said:
The volunteer spirit in US is mostly dependent on peoples narcissism. And I'll not discuss finance even though I've been thinking about it again.
If the bedroom is on the ground floor and you have a long piece, you can always stick it out the window to make the cut.
CSA? Hmm. Am I interpreting that as area inside dimension?
Ok. On my thumb nail, if I used a standard board width of 16" for the baffle, the depth would be about 13"
85 - 56 = 29 -16 = 13. I'm going for the wider rather deeper
style but overall height is still problematic.
This could be my BWB, the Big Winter Build as I have done with things like the Harvey for 127e.
My experience with the BIB is that it works well for those nice low piano notes but the MLTL in a compact package gives excellent strings and horns. I want to bring out that definition even more.
That's a hobby.
But I'm pleased with the mids and so on with the 127e.
How can the base (not bass) be brought up and the driver position
adjusted? You have said that concert emulation is best achieved with the driver above and forward to reflect or emulate a seated audience member. I'm thinking of something like that but not tipped.
Using the MLTL at zillaspeak for reference, if the side panels were used as the legs (open beneath) how big would this rascal have to be?
I'll go do some more measures of what I have here and relative listening position.
It's a one story, but the room is long/narrow, so ideal for a radial arm saw. I haven't done any measurements yet, but I don't believe there's enough space to use the table saw instead unless its feed tables do double duty as work tables.
CSA = internal (i.d.) cross sectional area, i.e. W x D. I'm surprised you don't know this as often as it's been posted on these forums.
What standard board is truly 16" wide and 1.5" thick? It's certainly nothing my local Lowe's or Home Depot stock.
Not sure what you're asking here: "How can the base (not bass) be brought up and the driver position adjusted?" and "......if the side panels were used as the legs (open beneath) how big would this rascal have to be?"
I mean if you shorten the length for a given CSA the driver slides down the pipe percentage wise, but will actually move closer to the closed end. For example, using my MLTL, the driver is down 19.75"/~35.27%, but if the pipe gets shortened to 36", then it's ~14.187"/39.4%. If the same net Vb is used, then CSA increases to ~132.483"^2, but it changes only a relatively small amount to ~15"/~41.64%.
GM
CSA = internal (i.d.) cross sectional area, i.e. W x D. I'm surprised you don't know this as often as it's been posted on these forums.
What standard board is truly 16" wide and 1.5" thick? It's certainly nothing my local Lowe's or Home Depot stock.
Not sure what you're asking here: "How can the base (not bass) be brought up and the driver position adjusted?" and "......if the side panels were used as the legs (open beneath) how big would this rascal have to be?"
I mean if you shorten the length for a given CSA the driver slides down the pipe percentage wise, but will actually move closer to the closed end. For example, using my MLTL, the driver is down 19.75"/~35.27%, but if the pipe gets shortened to 36", then it's ~14.187"/39.4%. If the same net Vb is used, then CSA increases to ~132.483"^2, but it changes only a relatively small amount to ~15"/~41.64%.
GM
Regards the CSA: Erf, no I haven't all that readily in mind on any given day.
Last build I did was from the BIB calculator and the Harvey before that was from a measured drawing. No CSA is given in that. I also
checked my Speakerbuilding 201 and a book by David Weems.
Just for the hell of it I looked up the acronym on the wiki.
I got Confederate States of America.
Just like the movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/
I don't remember everything I read on here.
So I have one measurement: length of 56 in. If, as you say, the shorter it gets the higher the driver is messing with your calculation may just be a bad idea.
Now if the driver center is 19 in down, then the height from the
floor is 37. Raising up as you say to 3 inches or so would be at
ear height. However if the higher driver position such as the one I am using at 44.5 would mean a longer leg or stand treatment.
Re: baffles I was guessing. I haven't been out measuring things at the HD. The vent would be made of PVC-- no 1.5 in stock would be used. One of the best materials I've used is pine glued up shelving.
So I would use that again on the sides.
Today I did a bit on my test box. I have some stick trim made of
shoe molding. Trying to cut miters on a hand miter box that clamps to the work surface and using a hack saw never turns out very well.
Last build I did was from the BIB calculator and the Harvey before that was from a measured drawing. No CSA is given in that. I also
checked my Speakerbuilding 201 and a book by David Weems.
Just for the hell of it I looked up the acronym on the wiki.
I got Confederate States of America.
Just like the movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/
I don't remember everything I read on here.
So I have one measurement: length of 56 in. If, as you say, the shorter it gets the higher the driver is messing with your calculation may just be a bad idea.
Now if the driver center is 19 in down, then the height from the
floor is 37. Raising up as you say to 3 inches or so would be at
ear height. However if the higher driver position such as the one I am using at 44.5 would mean a longer leg or stand treatment.
Re: baffles I was guessing. I haven't been out measuring things at the HD. The vent would be made of PVC-- no 1.5 in stock would be used. One of the best materials I've used is pine glued up shelving.
So I would use that again on the sides.
Today I did a bit on my test box. I have some stick trim made of
shoe molding. Trying to cut miters on a hand miter box that clamps to the work surface and using a hack saw never turns out very well.
AFAIK I'm the one who started using the abbreviation when MJK's software became popular......... WRT BIBs, I used 'Sm' the horn mouth designation for its CSA.
40" seated ear height? Are you really tall or just sit in a traditional chair Vs a sofa or similar? I mean my 6'6" neighbor has 'only' a ~39" ear height seated on my sofa.
OK, when you were figuring CSA you were reducing one side by 3", making for a 1.5" thick board.
Yeah, hacksaws and hand miter boxes are pretty much mutually exclusive, so why not at least get a proper miter hand saw?
Anyway, until you have a size worked out I can't calc a driver placement.
GM
40" seated ear height? Are you really tall or just sit in a traditional chair Vs a sofa or similar? I mean my 6'6" neighbor has 'only' a ~39" ear height seated on my sofa.
OK, when you were figuring CSA you were reducing one side by 3", making for a 1.5" thick board.
Yeah, hacksaws and hand miter boxes are pretty much mutually exclusive, so why not at least get a proper miter hand saw?
Anyway, until you have a size worked out I can't calc a driver placement.
GM
I was initially skeptical about GM's suggested MLTL params for the FE167e of:
L = 56"
CSA = 85.168"^2 (I used 12" x 7" for a CSA = 84 in2)
zdriver = 19.75"
dport = 4" (or rport = 2")
Lport = 1.5"
& zport = 56" and stuffing density of 0.5 lb/ft3 (stuffing top 2/3s of cab)?
because it seemed too tall to work well with the FE167e.
I popped these into MJK's MLTL worksheet and at first it looked no better than a MLTL with an L = 32", same CSA, zdriver = 8", dport = 3", Lport = 4", zport = 29" and same stuffing arrangement. The smaller MLTL certainly sim'd better in free space. But going further and adding a floor and wall 1m behind changes everything. Though the larger MLTL doesn't go any deeper, moving the driver up further from the floor smoothens the response.
L = 56"
CSA = 85.168"^2 (I used 12" x 7" for a CSA = 84 in2)
zdriver = 19.75"
dport = 4" (or rport = 2")
Lport = 1.5"
& zport = 56" and stuffing density of 0.5 lb/ft3 (stuffing top 2/3s of cab)?
because it seemed too tall to work well with the FE167e.
I popped these into MJK's MLTL worksheet and at first it looked no better than a MLTL with an L = 32", same CSA, zdriver = 8", dport = 3", Lport = 4", zport = 29" and same stuffing arrangement. The smaller MLTL certainly sim'd better in free space. But going further and adding a floor and wall 1m behind changes everything. Though the larger MLTL doesn't go any deeper, moving the driver up further from the floor smoothens the response.
Intuition for lack of a better word and some build experience just nudge me away from such a big box. I can't help it.
Remember my unconventional arrangement with these listening setups is one MLTL and one BIB.
I have two setups like this and now I'm tweaking the sound rather the build style if that makes sense.
My test box is nowhere near the dimension given from Martin's MathCad by Greg. BTW I have Mathcad free version and a sample file (not anything that is being used for designs) but I just don't have the aptitude. Like Dirty Harry says, "A man has to know his limitations."
The test box made from odds and ends I have is slightly bigger than the stock design at zillaspeak for the 127e.
The inside dimensions are 4.75 in d x 10 3/8 in w x 23 3/4. This is the
untrimmed size of some particle board shelving. There is 3/4 wide molding used to get the sides attached and the back is identical. Because I started the job just practicing cutting holes in stuff, the driver hole is centered at the same 8 1/2 inches from top measuring 144 cm.
I'll probably make more than one removable bottom to experiment with PVC ports.
I have been using 2" PVC for the 127e at 6" long which GM tells me is tuned low. The same box seems happy with a $10.00 4 " Pioneer in it as well.
I may experiment with a 3" PVC in this newer project and would take any advice about this from The Sims here.
This test box is the shape and size-- give or take -- that I think will
work on my stands or ones like them: stand has a top with a hole cut for
the downward firing and exposed port tube.
I'm not locked into the 167e for this. I do not know if the 165k
would be a better match.
Here again, the build is for a precise midrange with the BIB
providing the oomph on bass. I am not a real bass hog. String bass and solid piano, even tuba performs well with no subs in this blended setup.
Remember my unconventional arrangement with these listening setups is one MLTL and one BIB.
I have two setups like this and now I'm tweaking the sound rather the build style if that makes sense.
My test box is nowhere near the dimension given from Martin's MathCad by Greg. BTW I have Mathcad free version and a sample file (not anything that is being used for designs) but I just don't have the aptitude. Like Dirty Harry says, "A man has to know his limitations."
The test box made from odds and ends I have is slightly bigger than the stock design at zillaspeak for the 127e.
The inside dimensions are 4.75 in d x 10 3/8 in w x 23 3/4. This is the
untrimmed size of some particle board shelving. There is 3/4 wide molding used to get the sides attached and the back is identical. Because I started the job just practicing cutting holes in stuff, the driver hole is centered at the same 8 1/2 inches from top measuring 144 cm.
I'll probably make more than one removable bottom to experiment with PVC ports.
I have been using 2" PVC for the 127e at 6" long which GM tells me is tuned low. The same box seems happy with a $10.00 4 " Pioneer in it as well.
I may experiment with a 3" PVC in this newer project and would take any advice about this from The Sims here.
This test box is the shape and size-- give or take -- that I think will
work on my stands or ones like them: stand has a top with a hole cut for
the downward firing and exposed port tube.
I'm not locked into the 167e for this. I do not know if the 165k
would be a better match.
Here again, the build is for a precise midrange with the BIB
providing the oomph on bass. I am not a real bass hog. String bass and solid piano, even tuba performs well with no subs in this blended setup.
Ah, these people of little faith...
Just to point out, GM was, IIRC, designing mass-loaded straight lines back in the late 1960s (although they weren't called that back then ). FWIW, I'm currently running my 167s in a 45in MLTL of my own design, but if I were to do it again, chances are, I'd be running his cab., or something very similar. I like that extra volume & the theoretically superior phase response.
Just to point out, GM was, IIRC, designing mass-loaded straight lines back in the late 1960s (although they weren't called that back then
). FWIW, I'm currently running my 167s in a 45in MLTL of my own design, but if I were to do it again, chances are, I'd be running his cab., or something very similar. I like that extra volume & the theoretically superior phase response.Glad I go t some interest in this from others.
Let me spin this question another way:
Which driver in the Fostex under $70 group would work best in the design mentioned above?
I have considered the FF165 on price but do not know if the 166
could also be considered.
Decision day is approaching. I'd like to do break in on that long day when I do poll work next Tues.
Scott, do you have any measured drawings or renderings of the
45" MLTL. Maybe a picture?
Let me spin this question another way:
Which driver in the Fostex under $70 group would work best in the design mentioned above?
I have considered the FF165 on price but do not know if the 166
could also be considered.
Decision day is approaching. I'd like to do break in on that long day when I do poll work next Tues.
Scott, do you have any measured drawings or renderings of the
45" MLTL. Maybe a picture?
>>> I have considered the FF165 on price but do not know if the 166
could also be considered.
Just to be clear, what size do you want the finished boxes to be? I believe both of these will be light on bass but am also curious which will work best in the MLTL. I can run sims in WinISD in ported boxes of your size and post chart.
could also be considered.
Just to be clear, what size do you want the finished boxes to be? I believe both of these will be light on bass but am also curious which will work best in the MLTL. I can run sims in WinISD in ported boxes of your size and post chart.
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