I suppose a lot of you have read Dylan's gripe about "Modern Music" in the news today.
Of course he seems to be talking mostly about bad mastering and over use of compression. Nice to have someone of his fame complaning about the problem. Think it will do any good?
Still, I find it a bit funny that the man who has spent an entire career singing thru his noise is complaning about SQ. Blowing in the wind, Bob, blowing in the wind
Of course he seems to be talking mostly about bad mastering and over use of compression. Nice to have someone of his fame complaning about the problem. Think it will do any good?
Still, I find it a bit funny that the man who has spent an entire career singing thru his noise is complaning about SQ. Blowing in the wind, Bob, blowing in the wind
Dylan
No- I haven't read anything about bob dylan in quite some time... but I enjoy listening to his wares....always working with different musicians/session players. I think it's to his benefit that he works the way he does. And F.W.I.W. He's put out some great stuff... as well as items that wouldn't sell (real well) at the salvation army/ good will store. He's smart... and a good musician ..with a gift...and the ability to create a contract. I am a 'fan', and await what happens next. It's the 'music business'?
No- I haven't read anything about bob dylan in quite some time... but I enjoy listening to his wares....always working with different musicians/session players. I think it's to his benefit that he works the way he does. And F.W.I.W. He's put out some great stuff... as well as items that wouldn't sell (real well) at the salvation army/ good will store. He's smart... and a good musician ..with a gift...and the ability to create a contract. I am a 'fan', and await what happens next. It's the 'music business'?
Actually I read his comments about the master versus the CD, and one of the things he was talking about in his very vernacular way was the very audible degradation of the CD sound quality relative to the master. He also mentioned a number of production related issues as well. Anyone who has ever heard a studio master vs either an LP or CD release will know EXACTLY what he is talking about. And I think he makes a valid point, even if I thought the way he expressed it was extraordinarily hoaky. 
More comments later from ex audio industry veteran.
More comments later from ex audio industry veteran.
I don't think it will do any good. Most young kids have MP3 players and Ipods. New CDs sound horrible and no one cares.
The only people who really care are the people on this forum. Not enough to change the music industry. Why make media sound good when they make money tossing crap out the door with extreamly low overhead? The youth of today buy it up, download it, whatever, and they just don't know what music is really suppost to sound like.
I see the same problem with DVDs. Off topic a little, but Star Wars III on DVD acually looks about the same as the HBO HD version. The HD version had better colors, but the compression showed it's ugly head. Compression is what it's all about.
As far as music on newer CDs goes, it's not so much compression as it is unrealistic play back levels. Newer CDs are louder and when you turn them up, they start to sound just like a old tape with the record levels set too high. They can be in your face, borderline distortion, crapo sounding.
The only people who really care are the people on this forum. Not enough to change the music industry. Why make media sound good when they make money tossing crap out the door with extreamly low overhead? The youth of today buy it up, download it, whatever, and they just don't know what music is really suppost to sound like.
I see the same problem with DVDs. Off topic a little, but Star Wars III on DVD acually looks about the same as the HBO HD version. The HD version had better colors, but the compression showed it's ugly head. Compression is what it's all about.
As far as music on newer CDs goes, it's not so much compression as it is unrealistic play back levels. Newer CDs are louder and when you turn them up, they start to sound just like a old tape with the record levels set too high. They can be in your face, borderline distortion, crapo sounding.
The Bob speaks ...
" ... No- I haven't read anything about bob dylan in quite some time ..."
Rolling Stone Magazine issue of last week or so w/ The Bob's picture on the cover ...
I liked the interview, Dylan has not lost his touch with interviews and the Q&A session is quite interesting from a music producer's and musician's point of view.
" ... No- I haven't read anything about bob dylan in quite some time ..."
Rolling Stone Magazine issue of last week or so w/ The Bob's picture on the cover ...
I liked the interview, Dylan has not lost his touch with interviews and the Q&A session is quite interesting from a music producer's and musician's point of view.
Spot on ...
" ... If the buyers would not require [or put up with] those compressed stuff, recording companies would never sell it. The whole problem is in commercial behavior, not small disc. ..."
Absolutely ... the main fault for poor quality CDs (or vinyl or video) is the publishers. The rush to get media and content into the market place is always a priority for the publisher over the quality of the product.
In the case of Dylan's comments, he has no one to blame but himself ... "Modern Times" was produced by Jack Frost, ae: Dylan himself. The quality or lack there of is Dylan's own responsibility, and thus the article's reference to CDs being "too small". He had control over the content, the masters and the results. It is Sony / Columbia, the publishers, that are unable or unwilling to put the resulting album into the market place in a format that is satisfactory (CDs = 16 or 18 bit / 44K or 48K bandwidth).
There are rumors of a DVD-A (24 Bit / 96K / 4 channel) version of "Modern Times" , but in my opinion, Dylan should do the same for "Love and Theft", his previous album = much better musically and lyricly ...
" ... If the buyers would not require [or put up with] those compressed stuff, recording companies would never sell it. The whole problem is in commercial behavior, not small disc. ..."
Absolutely ... the main fault for poor quality CDs (or vinyl or video) is the publishers. The rush to get media and content into the market place is always a priority for the publisher over the quality of the product.
In the case of Dylan's comments, he has no one to blame but himself ... "Modern Times" was produced by Jack Frost, ae: Dylan himself. The quality or lack there of is Dylan's own responsibility, and thus the article's reference to CDs being "too small". He had control over the content, the masters and the results. It is Sony / Columbia, the publishers, that are unable or unwilling to put the resulting album into the market place in a format that is satisfactory (CDs = 16 or 18 bit / 44K or 48K bandwidth).
There are rumors of a DVD-A (24 Bit / 96K / 4 channel) version of "Modern Times" , but in my opinion, Dylan should do the same for "Love and Theft", his previous album = much better musically and lyricly ...
Rubbish? ... it may be
PinkMouse: " ... The main reason for over compressed records is that they sell better. Your average bloke on the street prefers the "louder" sound. ..."
True for many, but not all. Many professional musicians and music producrs who make it their business to do as well as they can would probably disagree ... quality of output being intimately tied to their success ... and that was Dylan's gripe = the quality and bandwidth just is not there in CDs, at least from the publisher's of his music, Sony / Columbia.
There are those of us who expect a better quality from the stuff we buy ... and those musicians and media producers who will continue to try to produce better results, better quality.
PinkMouse: " ... The main reason for over compressed records is that they sell better. Your average bloke on the street prefers the "louder" sound. ..."
True for many, but not all. Many professional musicians and music producrs who make it their business to do as well as they can would probably disagree ... quality of output being intimately tied to their success ... and that was Dylan's gripe = the quality and bandwidth just is not there in CDs, at least from the publisher's of his music, Sony / Columbia.
There are those of us who expect a better quality from the stuff we buy ... and those musicians and media producers who will continue to try to produce better results, better quality.
possible ...
" ... So it wasn't just a cheap, attention seeking, effort to boost his flagging record sales ..."
Possible, and likely. No one has ever accused Dylan of not being a music mercinary.
(I liked his book ... lots of insights, lots of potential song lyrics, full of descriptive process of becoming a musician / song writer ... I believe he is as good a prose writer as a song writer, although as you note, quite self serving and a huge ego ... but that seems to be what it takes to be a succesful public performer.)
" ... So it wasn't just a cheap, attention seeking, effort to boost his flagging record sales ..."
Possible, and likely. No one has ever accused Dylan of not being a music mercinary.
(I liked his book ... lots of insights, lots of potential song lyrics, full of descriptive process of becoming a musician / song writer ... I believe he is as good a prose writer as a song writer, although as you note, quite self serving and a huge ego ... but that seems to be what it takes to be a succesful public performer.)
an interesting reading...
Is sad to read about all this process of ¨mediacratization¨ -sorry for the neologism-, but in the corporative world, the rule is to adjust the offering to the demand issues. But in a ¨minimalistic¨ way: sort of ¨the least they demand, the better, cause is cheaper for us to provide¨
Please read this,
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_quality_age_good/
Regards
Is sad to read about all this process of ¨mediacratization¨ -sorry for the neologism-, but in the corporative world, the rule is to adjust the offering to the demand issues. But in a ¨minimalistic¨ way: sort of ¨the least they demand, the better, cause is cheaper for us to provide¨
Please read this,
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_quality_age_good/
Regards
Yes, Eddie, of course. In the last times I have seen all this talk about recordings quality in a lot of different places... I believe that some of the issue will, eventually, get it´s way across the obtuse corporative minds, so all those yuppies realize that, given the actual malaise in the records industry -complaints about piracy, etc-, at least offering a product of decent quality will, in the end, do more good than harm to the companies image and profits...
Who knows.
I have noticed too that some EMI productions of the last months have more ¨added value¨ than the offerings of a couple of years ago: more careful inlets, better sound quality... and the unavoidable label on the backside ¨Copy Protected¨¨Piracy is a Sin!¨
Maybe someone is taking note of all this buzz, and doin´something about the issue. Let´s hope
Cheers
Who knows.
I have noticed too that some EMI productions of the last months have more ¨added value¨ than the offerings of a couple of years ago: more careful inlets, better sound quality... and the unavoidable label on the backside ¨Copy Protected¨¨Piracy is a Sin!¨
Maybe someone is taking note of all this buzz, and doin´something about the issue. Let´s hope
Cheers
The silly thing is ...
... that the bandwidth / quality can be done in production very easily, right now ... just by using one of the several almost universally playable DVD formats available and "cut the master tapes" directly to the disc. Multichannel tracks at 24 bit / 96K (or better) audio, even with some still shots or graphics or "album art", don't come close to filling up the DVD discs. (Apparently even waiting for Blue Ray or some other format to win the video race, should not stop producers from using the "straight" audio format(s).)
... that the bandwidth / quality can be done in production very easily, right now ... just by using one of the several almost universally playable DVD formats available and "cut the master tapes" directly to the disc. Multichannel tracks at 24 bit / 96K (or better) audio, even with some still shots or graphics or "album art", don't come close to filling up the DVD discs. (Apparently even waiting for Blue Ray or some other format to win the video race, should not stop producers from using the "straight" audio format(s).)
The only thing I can see ...
... holding up full production to the masses of music on DVD is ... is ... fear, greed and power trips on the part of the publishers.
Fear ... that a lot of the crappola produced on CD will sound ... worse. (After all, 90% of art is trash.) Since many musicians now make more from their public performances than from album sales, the fear factor applies to them as well, public performances (possibly) sounding better than the CD. (In Dylan's case, the reverse is true. His public performnances are terrible compared to his studio work of late.)
Greed ... in that publishers might incure a penny or two more in production costs per disc, cutting into their bottom line. Personally, I would gladly pay a dollar more for better sound.
Power ... This is probably the main reason: power over the musicians, the engineers, the distributors, the media outlets like radio and in the stores. This power extends to dumping what is in stock as opposed to offering an alternative, even if the alternative, better quality of DVD as opposed to CDs, would be more profitable, not less, and represent more sales in total.
(I read that vinyl album sales have topped more than one million / year in Europe and turntable sales here in the states are up dramatically, so this quality question is ongoing. I know I am dusting off my junky old turntable. I just played a copy of Dr. John's latest CD of New Orleans Voodoo music = = and I understand that it is available in Europe on vinyl = if so, I will get it.)
... holding up full production to the masses of music on DVD is ... is ... fear, greed and power trips on the part of the publishers.
Fear ... that a lot of the crappola produced on CD will sound ... worse. (After all, 90% of art is trash.) Since many musicians now make more from their public performances than from album sales, the fear factor applies to them as well, public performances (possibly) sounding better than the CD. (In Dylan's case, the reverse is true. His public performnances are terrible compared to his studio work of late.)
Greed ... in that publishers might incure a penny or two more in production costs per disc, cutting into their bottom line. Personally, I would gladly pay a dollar more for better sound.
Power ... This is probably the main reason: power over the musicians, the engineers, the distributors, the media outlets like radio and in the stores. This power extends to dumping what is in stock as opposed to offering an alternative, even if the alternative, better quality of DVD as opposed to CDs, would be more profitable, not less, and represent more sales in total.
(I read that vinyl album sales have topped more than one million / year in Europe and turntable sales here in the states are up dramatically, so this quality question is ongoing. I know I am dusting off my junky old turntable. I just played a copy of Dr. John's latest CD of New Orleans Voodoo music =
= and I understand that it is available in Europe on vinyl = if so, I will get it.)vinyl rennaissance
I´ve resorted to vinyl a couple of years ago, thanks to an old and rusty Thorens TD125/sme3009 that a good friend gave me. Nice story that TD125 has. I restored it to perfection, just for fun, and as a way to check the reality of all those vinyl lover´s claims.
Just for fun and curiosity too, I made some phono preamp -¨El Cheapo¨, by Thorsten Loesch- with a pair of BB opa637s that I obtained as samples a lot of years ago.
Aaaaah, what a sound!
At least I have another choice now.
Well, the fact is that my vinyl collection is growing at an alarming rate. Here en Argentina vinyl is still viewed as ¨uncool¨ -some sort of remain of the dinosaurs era-, ´cause everybody is into celullar phones, mp3, dvd´s and shiny things, which I regard as useful and funny, but as the epitome of the uncoolness-, so there is no new vinyl available, and the price of imports is very high due to the exchange rate. But there´s a lot of used stuff in good condition.
Dr. John in vinyl... that makes me hungry
My latest findings were Roger Daltrey´s ¨Riding a Rock Horse¨, some Cheap Trick, a lot of Van Morrison, even strange and propulsive german electrofunk -Supermax, Rheingold-...
I´m rediscovering the past with that turntable!
Hope you can afford to put new life in your old one!
And for sure, corporate greed is an awful ghost that, for sure, is ruining a whole industry... sort of that symbolic figure of a snake biting it´s own tail.
I believe that high record prices and low perceived value, are some of the reasons behind piracy, vinyl rebirth and all those ¨anticorporate¨ behaviours that some square guys tend to
demonize.
Even worst: some record companies tend to pass the guilt to the consumer: ¨you´re a delinquent, you´re starving musicians with all those piracy¨ or ¨one more copy, one less musician¨...
Trying to hide the fact that them -the companies- have being doin´an awful lot of money changing formats, reissuing ¨remasters¨, ¨definitive remasters¨ and ¨ultimate remasters¨, selling dvd´s, overpricing stuff, etc.
I believe that musicians themselves must take part in all this issue as soon as possible.
Besides the obscurity of old Bob remarks, is a good thing that at least one of the greats express some disconfort with the actual state of things.
Regards
I´ve resorted to vinyl a couple of years ago, thanks to an old and rusty Thorens TD125/sme3009 that a good friend gave me. Nice story that TD125 has. I restored it to perfection, just for fun, and as a way to check the reality of all those vinyl lover´s claims.
Just for fun and curiosity too, I made some phono preamp -¨El Cheapo¨, by Thorsten Loesch- with a pair of BB opa637s that I obtained as samples a lot of years ago.
Aaaaah, what a sound!
At least I have another choice now.
Well, the fact is that my vinyl collection is growing at an alarming rate. Here en Argentina vinyl is still viewed as ¨uncool¨ -some sort of remain of the dinosaurs era-, ´cause everybody is into celullar phones, mp3, dvd´s and shiny things, which I regard as useful and funny, but as the epitome of the uncoolness-, so there is no new vinyl available, and the price of imports is very high due to the exchange rate. But there´s a lot of used stuff in good condition.
Dr. John in vinyl... that makes me hungry
My latest findings were Roger Daltrey´s ¨Riding a Rock Horse¨, some Cheap Trick, a lot of Van Morrison, even strange and propulsive german electrofunk -Supermax, Rheingold-...
I´m rediscovering the past with that turntable!
Hope you can afford to put new life in your old one!
And for sure, corporate greed is an awful ghost that, for sure, is ruining a whole industry... sort of that symbolic figure of a snake biting it´s own tail.
I believe that high record prices and low perceived value, are some of the reasons behind piracy, vinyl rebirth and all those ¨anticorporate¨ behaviours that some square guys tend to
demonize.
Even worst: some record companies tend to pass the guilt to the consumer: ¨you´re a delinquent, you´re starving musicians with all those piracy¨ or ¨one more copy, one less musician¨...
Trying to hide the fact that them -the companies- have being doin´an awful lot of money changing formats, reissuing ¨remasters¨, ¨definitive remasters¨ and ¨ultimate remasters¨, selling dvd´s, overpricing stuff, etc.
I believe that musicians themselves must take part in all this issue as soon as possible.
Besides the obscurity of old Bob remarks, is a good thing that at least one of the greats express some disconfort with the actual state of things.
Regards
Ahhhh Yes! ...
... the joy of rediscovering vinyl:
" ... Nice story that TD125 has. I restored it to perfection, just for fun, and as a way to check the reality of all those vinyl lover´s claims. Just for fun and curiosity too, I made some phono preamp -¨El Cheapo¨, by Thorsten Loesch- with a pair of BB opa637s that I obtained as samples a lot of years ago. Aaaaah, what a sound! ..."
I have several collectors' sets of vinyl albums that I have never played (still in factory seals) and am in the process of dusting off the ol' turntable ... Oh boy! (I just hope the phono pre-amp in my "all-in'one" Panasonic (Class-D = XL-70) is up to the task.)
... the joy of rediscovering vinyl:
" ... Nice story that TD125 has. I restored it to perfection, just for fun, and as a way to check the reality of all those vinyl lover´s claims. Just for fun and curiosity too, I made some phono preamp -¨El Cheapo¨, by Thorsten Loesch- with a pair of BB opa637s that I obtained as samples a lot of years ago. Aaaaah, what a sound! ..."
I have several collectors' sets of vinyl albums that I have never played (still in factory seals) and am in the process of dusting off the ol' turntable ... Oh boy! (I just hope the phono pre-amp in my "all-in'one" Panasonic (Class-D = XL-70) is up to the task.)
Say hey! ...
" ... Here en Argentina vinyl is still viewed as ¨uncool¨ -some sort of remain of the dinosaurs era-, ´cause everybody is into celullar phones, mp3, dvd´s and shiny things ..."
Looks like a buyers market in vinyl.
Go shopping in the local flea markets, right now. Anything with the Chess label ... grab it! ... one man's trash is another man's treasure ...
" ... Here en Argentina vinyl is still viewed as ¨uncool¨ -some sort of remain of the dinosaurs era-, ´cause everybody is into celullar phones, mp3, dvd´s and shiny things ..."
Looks like a buyers market in vinyl.
Go shopping in the local flea markets, right now. Anything with the Chess label ... grab it! ... one man's trash is another man's treasure ...
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