UH OH...
Hi,
Sorry, ole chum...there's more to life than that..
There's Z, for starters and if you have a second I'll direct you to a little puzzle:
INTERCONNECTS
Just read the last two pages to avoid an overdose of aspirine...
Sorry to be a spoil sport, maths are maths if that is what matters to you.
Ciao,
Hi,
Sorry, ole chum...there's more to life than that..
There's Z, for starters and if you have a second I'll direct you to a little puzzle:
INTERCONNECTS
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15600
Just read the last two pages to avoid an overdose of aspirine...
Sorry to be a spoil sport, maths are maths if that is what matters to you.
Ciao,
EINSTEIN IN THE MAKE...
Hi,
Reread carefully what you've written and you already notice that you start to doubt the trust you put in what you've been told over and over and over again...
Going to uni is great, what is greater is to start and think for yourself.
Not only is this true for audio, but an investigative, questioning mind is the true sign of the great.
Don't preclude anything "a priori" and it'll teach you all about yourself.
Sorry to play the philosopher,
Hi,
Reread carefully what you've written and you already notice that you start to doubt the trust you put in what you've been told over and over and over again...
Going to uni is great, what is greater is to start and think for yourself.
Not only is this true for audio, but an investigative, questioning mind is the true sign of the great.
Don't preclude anything "a priori" and it'll teach you all about yourself.
Sorry to play the philosopher,
Mysterious I Know, But Never The Less....
Hi Steve.
I don't think any of us are completely sure, but a few of us have observed this parameter.
Presumably the solder alloy used to terminate interconnect cables should make no differences, however it has been observed that it does affect, and effect sonics.
To my ear the effects are one of affecting noise spectrums, a little bit along the lines of differing oversampling algorithms sounding subtley different, and as is known, these algorithms effect noise (distortion) spectrums.
In some of my experimenting I am able to affect the noise distribution in a cable directly, and render the noise spectrum to one that is quite innocuous.
Noise spectrums can have quite profound effects downstream (intermodulation effects mostly I think), according to the noise behaviour of following stages and transducers.
Whilst none of us have concrete explanations, the effect is real and ought to be measurable with sufficiently resolving test equipment.
From what I do understand, phonon behaviour is the element at work here.
Eric.
Hi Steve.
I don't think any of us are completely sure, but a few of us have observed this parameter.
Presumably the solder alloy used to terminate interconnect cables should make no differences, however it has been observed that it does affect, and effect sonics.
To my ear the effects are one of affecting noise spectrums, a little bit along the lines of differing oversampling algorithms sounding subtley different, and as is known, these algorithms effect noise (distortion) spectrums.
In some of my experimenting I am able to affect the noise distribution in a cable directly, and render the noise spectrum to one that is quite innocuous.
Noise spectrums can have quite profound effects downstream (intermodulation effects mostly I think), according to the noise behaviour of following stages and transducers.
Whilst none of us have concrete explanations, the effect is real and ought to be measurable with sufficiently resolving test equipment.
From what I do understand, phonon behaviour is the element at work here.
Eric.
Re: Mysterious I Know, But Never The Less....
Now we're talking about solder alloys and soldered connections. I'm talking about the conductor material of the wire itself. You know, like copper, silver, etc.
Noise and distortion are not one and the same. Noise simply adds to the signal, it does not multiply and does not produce intermoduation distortion.
Phonons are just the quanta of lattice vibrations. Which produce the thermal noise in conductors. But again, noise isn't distortion.
se
mrfeedback said:
Now we're talking about solder alloys and soldered connections. I'm talking about the conductor material of the wire itself. You know, like copper, silver, etc.
Noise and distortion are not one and the same. Noise simply adds to the signal, it does not multiply and does not produce intermoduation distortion.
Phonons are just the quanta of lattice vibrations. Which produce the thermal noise in conductors. But again, noise isn't distortion.
se
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Hi,
I realise fully that formulae are boring...
The main reason I posted them is for you NOT to read them, so you could once again argue till we all get :
So, if we set aside pure mathemathical theories and look at what's going on in real life it would be easier to understand that parameters aren't just static but vary.
Make a step but make sure you don't fall into the deep end...
Hi,
I realise fully that formulae are boring...
The main reason I posted them is for you NOT to read them, so you could once again argue till we all get :
So, if we set aside pure mathemathical theories and look at what's going on in real life it would be easier to understand that parameters aren't just static but vary.
Make a step but make sure you don't fall into the deep end...
Frank, Do We Really Have To Explain Everything Repeatedly ?.
Solder alloy is a conductor, just like wires are conducting alloys.
Noise will intermodulate and be modulated if it passes through a non perfectly linear stage.
Phonon noise is thermal noise that gets modulated/intermodulated - this constitutes distortion.
Next...
Eric.
Steve Eddy said:
Solder alloy is a conductor, just like wires are conducting alloys.
Noise will intermodulate and be modulated if it passes through a non perfectly linear stage.
Phonon noise is thermal noise that gets modulated/intermodulated - this constitutes distortion.
Next...
Eric.
Re: Frank, Do We Really Have To Explain Everything Repeatedly ?.
Ok, you want to talk about solder so I guess we'll talk about solder.
So going back to your original statement:
<i>Presumably the solder alloy used to terminate interconnect cables should make no differences, however it has been observed that it does affect, and effect sonics.</i>
Seeing as it's also been observed that freezing photographs of oneself also affects/effects sonics, how 'bout we stick to physics?
What is the physical mechanism which accounts for this?
So will anything else (such as the signal) that's passed through such a stage. But then that's not the fault of what's driving the stage. So what's the nonlinearity in solder alloys?
Er, modulated/intermodulated by what? Phonon noise is acoustic. Thermal noise is electronic. The latter is the consequence of the former. So where does your modulated/intermodulated come into the picture?
se
mrfeedback said:
Ok, you want to talk about solder so I guess we'll talk about solder.
So going back to your original statement:
<i>Presumably the solder alloy used to terminate interconnect cables should make no differences, however it has been observed that it does affect, and effect sonics.</i>
Seeing as it's also been observed that freezing photographs of oneself also affects/effects sonics, how 'bout we stick to physics?
What is the physical mechanism which accounts for this?
So will anything else (such as the signal) that's passed through such a stage. But then that's not the fault of what's driving the stage. So what's the nonlinearity in solder alloys?
Er, modulated/intermodulated by what? Phonon noise is acoustic. Thermal noise is electronic. The latter is the consequence of the former. So where does your modulated/intermodulated come into the picture?
se
What else besides L/C/R?
Cables have a variety of measurable properties beyond the simple L, C and R you measure when viewing them as a 4-terminal network.
For instance: Just about all cables are microphonic to some degree (meaning that mechanical noise can induce a voltage between the conductors). I plugged a couple of metres of unbalanced screened cable into a FET-input preamp connected to a scope; I saw pulses on the scope when flicking the cable with a fingernail. Audibly, it makes a rustling or crinkling sound when you handle the cable.
But because it's possible to demonstrate properties like this independently of anybody having to listen to anything, it should be possible to decide objectively whether they are audible, and separate the truth from the voodoo.
For instance, I plugged my 'microphonic' cable into a power amp, turned the gain up full and put my ear next to the speaker while I flicked the cable jacket. I heard nothing.
(Measuring it all, the cable produced 500uV pulses of about 1ms width when driving the 2.2M-input-impedance preamp. This disappeared below the noise when loaded with 10K, my amp's input impedance).
I conclude, therefore, that when I'm at my normal listening position, at normal gain, with just sound vibrations and not direct mechanical stimulation and with a low-impedance line level output driving the cable, I'm not going to hear the effects of cable microphony.
Your mileage may vary.
Cheers
IH
Cables have a variety of measurable properties beyond the simple L, C and R you measure when viewing them as a 4-terminal network.
For instance: Just about all cables are microphonic to some degree (meaning that mechanical noise can induce a voltage between the conductors). I plugged a couple of metres of unbalanced screened cable into a FET-input preamp connected to a scope; I saw pulses on the scope when flicking the cable with a fingernail. Audibly, it makes a rustling or crinkling sound when you handle the cable.
But because it's possible to demonstrate properties like this independently of anybody having to listen to anything, it should be possible to decide objectively whether they are audible, and separate the truth from the voodoo.
For instance, I plugged my 'microphonic' cable into a power amp, turned the gain up full and put my ear next to the speaker while I flicked the cable jacket. I heard nothing.
(Measuring it all, the cable produced 500uV pulses of about 1ms width when driving the 2.2M-input-impedance preamp. This disappeared below the noise when loaded with 10K, my amp's input impedance).
I conclude, therefore, that when I'm at my normal listening position, at normal gain, with just sound vibrations and not direct mechanical stimulation and with a low-impedance line level output driving the cable, I'm not going to hear the effects of cable microphony.
Your mileage may vary.
Cheers
IH
This Is What You Mean Isn't It ?.
The solder breaks when you stretch it too much.
It gets through the lid of the freezer.
Eric.
Yeah, it usually comes on a reel, is silvery coloured and melts easy.
Have you really tried freezing your own portrait ?.
The freezer is really cold inside.
Is it ever anybody's fault ?.
The solder breaks when you stretch it too much.
Ahhhh, so it is the phonons fault after all.
It gets through the lid of the freezer.
Eric.
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