Bratislav said:
Bratislav,
I understand your frustration, but you are wasting your time in trying to convince people. Your are essentially arguing science against religion.
If you look on the various forums, you'll see a not surprising trend. Most of the people on these forums have *some* EE and audio background, although the experience varies widely. There's a lot of "take a reference design and throw tweaks at it" going on (in many cases, with misguided ideas about what's being accomplished IMO).
You can never win against, "Well I don't care what you or science says, *I* can hear the difference."
Facts are pointless in the face of fanaticism.
"Facts are pointless in the face of fanaticism."
Problem is some of the guys are blinded by some old theory and numbers which does not hold up to modern standards. That is fanatiscm. My experiences are fact, my way better hearing than average Joe is fact, failing to accept and understand that is fanaticism. I reall have a problem with this kind of "cult" religion" or "dogma" thinking from some people.
I prefer people that have an intelligent open mind and criticall thinking, and also that is not "blind sheep" following some big name dude, theory based on old out of date tests and so on.
/Peter
Problem is some of the guys are blinded by some old theory and numbers which does not hold up to modern standards. That is fanatiscm. My experiences are fact, my way better hearing than average Joe is fact, failing to accept and understand that is fanaticism. I reall have a problem with this kind of "cult" religion" or "dogma" thinking from some people.
I prefer people that have an intelligent open mind and criticall thinking, and also that is not "blind sheep" following some big name dude, theory based on old out of date tests and so on.
/Peter
purplepeople wrote:
"So when you say slew rates are not similar to jitter, is this because the slew rates in opamp, transistors and tubes are so high as to be assumed to be vertical. I don't see that as true..."
The slewrate does mostly (only?) affect high fr. resolution. It can not alter the reproduction "back and forth" in time.
Jitter affects most of the audioband and also raises the distortion and noise floor since the signal is disorted by the modulation by the error in the timing of the conversion.
I prefer low jitter and high slewrate though
Some of the best power amps I´ve heard have been those with slewrate of 100-800V/uS or so with a BW at 1-4MHz.
/Peter
"So when you say slew rates are not similar to jitter, is this because the slew rates in opamp, transistors and tubes are so high as to be assumed to be vertical. I don't see that as true..."
The slewrate does mostly (only?) affect high fr. resolution. It can not alter the reproduction "back and forth" in time.
Jitter affects most of the audioband and also raises the distortion and noise floor since the signal is disorted by the modulation by the error in the timing of the conversion.
I prefer low jitter and high slewrate though
Some of the best power amps I´ve heard have been those with slewrate of 100-800V/uS or so with a BW at 1-4MHz.
/Peter
mikek said:
ALL people EVERYONE of them on the planet cannot tell the difference in a blind test, between two or more low distortion amps. driven to same volt. swing across the same load in turn. Elementary
As usual I think you are wrong, but on the other hand, what do you mean with "low distortion amp", what is the criteria for an amp being audible identicall to another???
/Peter
Re: Re: Re: Re: I Know What I Hear.
One thing is for sure, my speakers/room/ears has enough resolution to hear diffrence between cables, LOW distortion amps, jitter-levels and low level low distortion analog stages.
I don´t know wat the distortion levels are on my drivers at 20W, and that is not really important to me as I never play 100dB+, maybe you do that often enough to have ruined your hearing. I treat my golden ears with respect because I want to be able to enjoy high perfromance audio for many years to come.
My room is welll treated and I can really not understand how you believe that a standing wave in the bass will mask high frequency distortion???
Most audible differences in cables and amps are in the highest octaves, these are NOT masked by the room if it is a decent room.
At ca 88dB the Accuton drivers have about 0.1%-0.2% 2nd and 3rd harmonics. At lower levels, say 80 dB for a reproduced voice and guitar the numbers are even lower. A low distortion amp may have 0.01%THD+N, this is not exactly a thousand times more as you put it. Or if you use the D20/D30 tweeters the distortion is down on the level as many good amps. 0.01% 3rd and 0.1% or less 2nd.
I don´t TRY to detect those differences I DO detect them, mostly very easily.
As far as directionality of resistors, don´t believe in that and various feets on my gear has not produced any audible difference to my ears, none whatsoever. Have tried several feets on both power amps and CDP and detect no difference.
/Peter
Bratislav said:
One thing is for sure, my speakers/room/ears has enough resolution to hear diffrence between cables, LOW distortion amps, jitter-levels and low level low distortion analog stages.
I don´t know wat the distortion levels are on my drivers at 20W, and that is not really important to me as I never play 100dB+, maybe you do that often enough to have ruined your hearing. I treat my golden ears with respect because I want to be able to enjoy high perfromance audio for many years to come.
My room is welll treated and I can really not understand how you believe that a standing wave in the bass will mask high frequency distortion???
Most audible differences in cables and amps are in the highest octaves, these are NOT masked by the room if it is a decent room.
At ca 88dB the Accuton drivers have about 0.1%-0.2% 2nd and 3rd harmonics. At lower levels, say 80 dB for a reproduced voice and guitar the numbers are even lower. A low distortion amp may have 0.01%THD+N, this is not exactly a thousand times more as you put it. Or if you use the D20/D30 tweeters the distortion is down on the level as many good amps. 0.01% 3rd and 0.1% or less 2nd.
I don´t TRY to detect those differences I DO detect them, mostly very easily.
As far as directionality of resistors, don´t believe in that and various feets on my gear has not produced any audible difference to my ears, none whatsoever. Have tried several feets on both power amps and CDP and detect no difference.
/Peter
Pan said:
Yeah, math and physics do tend to fall behind the times.
No, your experiences are not fact. They are just that, your experiences. How do you know how much better your hearing is than average?
Heh...you're killing me here. What big name dude and theory based on old out of data tests are you referring to, pray tell? I am keeping an open mind, I'd just ask you to do the same.
Peter Daniel said:
Doesn't bother me in the least. People are free to believe what they wish.
Is it against your _religion_ ?
That's just it -- I'm not religious about the subject of audio. If it can't be backed up with science and math, it's not there as far as I'm concerned.
Would you have schools using textbooks claiming that the Earth is flat because some people believe it to be?
jcarr said:
..Hi Jonathan.....point taken.....i think however 'feel' is more apt than 'hear' in this respect...
...it is straight foward to design an amp. that is flat to DC....1MHz. is another matter...i do'nt think anyone can even 'feel' 30KHz...nevermind 1MHz...
P.S: I think this forum is immeasurably enriched by your input....dialed-in folks should need no reminding in respect of your seminal work at the cutting edge of the audio electronics field. More contributions. Please!!!!
Cheers.Peter Daniel said:So if somebody can hear the difference, or at least believes he does, why would it bother you?
Is it against your _religion_ ?
Peter...with respect, (and i love your work!!
) ...it bothers me because an awful bunch of untutored folks are often fraudulently persuaded to part with Biblical sums of lucre on the equaly fraudulent premise that more expensive='Better' sound quality...Alas...too many otherwise intelligent people are too easily hoodwinked into believing the voodoo electronics approach....that sadly is the truth...
Re: purplepeople wrote:
Helllllllllll......Nooooo......!!!! Please, i would love to examine this 4MHz bandwidth power amp.......i assume here that you refer to the half-power bandwidth as opposed to the unity-gain cross-over freq.???
...slew rate of 800V/uS...am i correct in assuming the amp. swings in excess of 6KV peak for this to be true, (i.e: 'audible')?
Pan said:
Helllllllllll......Nooooo......!!!!
Please, i would love to examine this 4MHz bandwidth power amp.......i assume here that you refer to the half-power bandwidth as opposed to the unity-gain cross-over freq.???...slew rate of 800V/uS...am i correct in assuming the amp. swings in excess of 6KV peak for this to be true, (i.e: 'audible')?
hearing is believing
Let's see...
Some young children can hear to almost 20 khz.
With age, your hearing degrades and the large majority of adult people can't hear above 15-16 khz.
On the lower part of the spectrum, you can't hear below 25 or 20hz, but you can feel it.
You shake, your house shakes, everything shakes.
But your hi-fi needs to have a good bandwidth, to play easily the audible part of the spectrum.
With digital (CD), due to brick walls after 20khz, the audible band is always affected in some way.
It would be sufficient to have that brick wall at, say, 30khz (you had to have a higher sampling rate).
Vinyl is a different story, some heads (specially good MCs) have a bandwidth of about 40 khz, and some good vinyl pressings do justice to this.
And in analogue there's no "sampling", no "bits", bandwidth is limited, as in everything, but resolution is infinite.
I once did a test with my tuner connected to my PC, and did an FFT analysis with Cool Edit 2000.
There it was, the stereo pilot tone, loud and clear on the graph, at 19 khz.
But can anyone hear this?
It was loud on the graph, but I didn't hear anything.
Normally amps/preamps are limited in frequency just to prevent oscillations and other problems, but the chips/transistors in it go way above that.
You wouldn't want to use an op-amp with a 20 khz bandwidth.
It would sound like crap.
Let's see...
Some young children can hear to almost 20 khz.
With age, your hearing degrades and the large majority of adult people can't hear above 15-16 khz.
On the lower part of the spectrum, you can't hear below 25 or 20hz, but you can feel it.
You shake, your house shakes, everything shakes.
But your hi-fi needs to have a good bandwidth, to play easily the audible part of the spectrum.
With digital (CD), due to brick walls after 20khz, the audible band is always affected in some way.
It would be sufficient to have that brick wall at, say, 30khz (you had to have a higher sampling rate).
Vinyl is a different story, some heads (specially good MCs) have a bandwidth of about 40 khz, and some good vinyl pressings do justice to this.
And in analogue there's no "sampling", no "bits", bandwidth is limited, as in everything, but resolution is infinite.
I once did a test with my tuner connected to my PC, and did an FFT analysis with Cool Edit 2000.
There it was, the stereo pilot tone, loud and clear on the graph, at 19 khz.
But can anyone hear this?
It was loud on the graph, but I didn't hear anything.
Normally amps/preamps are limited in frequency just to prevent oscillations and other problems, but the chips/transistors in it go way above that.
You wouldn't want to use an op-amp with a 20 khz bandwidth.
It would sound like crap.
Re: Bandwidth.
...so....if you 'agree with jc's approach', we can safely conclude that you 'agree' with his findings, and that therefore the majority of this thread has been a profound and an heroic waste of time?
fdegrove said:
I absolutely agree with JCs' testing approach.
Moreover, I think Eric would agree also, as would Peter Daniel IMO as would other members.
Cheers,
...so....if you 'agree with jc's approach', we can safely conclude that you 'agree' with his findings, and that therefore the majority of this thread has been a profound and an heroic waste of time?
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