Of course it depends how big ones ego is.
In the 60's I built class A things that I'd love to own now. At the time, I was put off them because they sounded different from the commercial gear of the time.
Now I know different
They were better than the commercial gear - different budget constraints.Now I'm pleased to say that my ego's expanded to encompass......myself
Terry,
You/we have the answer now sound wise. Not sure about the measurement side. Is that what you call double blind test, two old farts who have trouble seeing past their noses ;-)
jean-paul,
My findings are the same as yours. Have only tried the NH in the Super E config on an electrostatic head amp but it was clearly audible. Better than Elna Cerafines and better than Jensen HV electros (which BTW were superior to the Elnas) and better than a single or double (parallel) NH caps.
What was interesting was I arranged them in identical pin parallel arrangement and they lost the advantage the Super E config gave. Sounded the same as a single 150uF cap on each rail.
Another vote for BG non-polarised.
Now, if I can only work out where to get 350V batteries!
LOL, Craig.
You/we have the answer now sound wise. Not sure about the measurement side. Is that what you call double blind test, two old farts who have trouble seeing past their noses ;-)
jean-paul,
My findings are the same as yours. Have only tried the NH in the Super E config on an electrostatic head amp but it was clearly audible. Better than Elna Cerafines and better than Jensen HV electros (which BTW were superior to the Elnas) and better than a single or double (parallel) NH caps.
What was interesting was I arranged them in identical pin parallel arrangement and they lost the advantage the Super E config gave. Sounded the same as a single 150uF cap on each rail.
Another vote for BG non-polarised.
Now, if I can only work out where to get 350V batteries!
LOL, Craig.
CraigBuckingham said:
Craig,
I am pleased to be able to agree with you (and jean-paul) on this one.
In my experience, BG 'Standards' are not that much ahead of Cerafines/Oscons etc. to make it worthwhile replacing the latter ones, if they are already in use.
Ns, NXs, & NX HiQs are in another league though. So is their obscene price which is a disgrace, even though most suppliers have recently halved the costs!
The HiQs, after a looooong burn in period are generally as good as say MIT RTX series polystyrenes (which in my experience take a lot of beating for 'ruthless' accuracy) and in " Super E" configuration are even better when used as coupling caps.
Interestingly, like you, I tried going back to a single cap compared with two ('E' type config) in series (where the halving/doubling of capacitance should not have affected this issue), and there was a noticeable difference in sound, particularly in the resolution at the very top end.
With the tiny size of the 0.1s I tried this with, presumably the fact that they cannot occupy the same physical space (which would in theory be needed) is less important with their axes only being about 3mm apart.
However, I dislike *all* electrolytics since they either sound pretty lousy, or cost an 'arm and a leg' (two arms and two legs for Super E!) and therefore I try to use circuits which don't require any (or many).
Being new to the Forum, I don't wish to ruffle any more feathers unnecessarily, but seeing the title of the other topic on BGs by Tortello (who I am sure meant no real harm) I nearly had a heart attack!
Especially as the rather dramatic wording now seems to have been completely misleading from what the other posters have said, I do wish that great care could be shown in the titles of new threads when a member begins a new topic.
Such wild comments can become spread around like wildfire, and not everyone will necessarily see all of the follow-ups.
Many will probably just remember (at some time in the future) that they had seen on the Forum that BGs are prone to failure, which is not fair comment.
It wouldn't be the first time that a company was nearly put out of business as a result of such rumours on the Internet, and whilst I hate the costs of BGs, I would hate even more seeing their unneccessary demise!
What do other members think?
Regards,
Hi Philo,
I had 4 x 150uF/350V NH Black Gates (BG) to play with along with the Jensens and the Cerafines. I have pi or CLC filters in the power supplys +ve 300V -ve 300V. The chokes are 1H.
The Cerafines (220uF/350V) were connected to the bridge rectifier. So all the comparisons were done on the choke output or amplifier end of the power supply.
The BG NHs were connected first as single caps (150uF on each rail) then as Super E config (300uF on each rail) and then as parallel same polarity (not Super E config) 300uF each rail again. The difference between the 300uF on each rail non-Super E and Super E configuration was clearly audible. So something is going on there but measurement wise I haven't looked at it.
Terry Demol heard it as well and we were both in agreement. Not subtle, quite obvious.
regards, Craig.
I had 4 x 150uF/350V NH Black Gates (BG) to play with along with the Jensens and the Cerafines. I have pi or CLC filters in the power supplys +ve 300V -ve 300V. The chokes are 1H.
The Cerafines (220uF/350V) were connected to the bridge rectifier. So all the comparisons were done on the choke output or amplifier end of the power supply.
The BG NHs were connected first as single caps (150uF on each rail) then as Super E config (300uF on each rail) and then as parallel same polarity (not Super E config) 300uF each rail again. The difference between the 300uF on each rail non-Super E and Super E configuration was clearly audible. So something is going on there but measurement wise I haven't looked at it.
Terry Demol heard it as well and we were both in agreement. Not subtle, quite obvious.
regards, Craig.
Philo said:
Hi Bob,
Yes there is something going on with the Super E configuration.
I agree with you on not using electrolytics and with low voltage stuff I have tried to find ways to avoid them where possible. However, some DAC chips and other circuits just can't do without them.
With hi-voltage gear I hunted around for ages trying to find suitable batteries to no avail. If anyone can help me out there I would be eternally greatful.
I also dont like spending lots of money capacitors but keep in mind that the BGs NP are supposed to have almost limitless life due to there different mechanisms.
If you want the best price I think you will find that Black Gate Japan is much cheaper than anyone else. There is a catch though, they only take TT so this and their bank charges only make larger orders more viable.
This is not an advertisement and I do not have an interest in BG, I am only saying this to help us all get them at a more competitive price.
Regards, CRaig.
Yes there is something going on with the Super E configuration.
I agree with you on not using electrolytics and with low voltage stuff I have tried to find ways to avoid them where possible. However, some DAC chips and other circuits just can't do without them.
With hi-voltage gear I hunted around for ages trying to find suitable batteries to no avail. If anyone can help me out there I would be eternally greatful.
I also dont like spending lots of money capacitors but keep in mind that the BGs NP are supposed to have almost limitless life due to there different mechanisms.
If you want the best price I think you will find that Black Gate Japan is much cheaper than anyone else. There is a catch though, they only take TT so this and their bank charges only make larger orders more viable.
This is not an advertisement and I do not have an interest in BG, I am only saying this to help us all get them at a more competitive price.
Regards, CRaig.
I'm using the Black Gate super E caps around my DAC chip in a Marantz CD63KI CD player. At first fire up the player sounded awfull. It was if the high frequency's where cut off at 10kHz. It took for about a day or two before anything changed and for about another month before the sound was really changing. I get a huge improvement in sound stage and more refinement in the high frequency region. I had build an external power supply for the player before I used the Black Gates. This was a big improvement at the time. Now with the whole player filled with Black Gates I don't hear any difference anymore between the external or the internal power supply.
I'm using Black Gates everywhere possible and anytime I get very good results with. They only take a very long time running in.
I'm using Black Gates everywhere possible and anytime I get very good results with. They only take a very long time running in.
What do you mean BG expensive?
I installed Black Gate NH 100uF/160v as a bypass on my cathode resistor this morning. Listened for 1 minute before I had to rush of to take the kids to school and go to work.
In the first minute of listening I would have to say I concur with Jcarr's remarks.. Seriously..I mean it. If you can't hear a difference in the first minute you'll never hear it..
And what is this talk about expensive? What do you think a 100uF polyprop would cost.. (Not to mention the size..I don't have room for a 100uF polyprop)
The BG was 18,2 Euro apiece, I reckon a polyprop that size would cost around 45 euro.
By the way...If I have to put it in my own words, it made my system sound richer/textured/fatter in a colored sort of way but colored in a good way, if you know what I mean.
They are staying in for as long as they last!
I installed Black Gate NH 100uF/160v as a bypass on my cathode resistor this morning. Listened for 1 minute before I had to rush of to take the kids to school and go to work.
In the first minute of listening I would have to say I concur with Jcarr's remarks.. Seriously..I mean it. If you can't hear a difference in the first minute you'll never hear it..
And what is this talk about expensive? What do you think a 100uF polyprop would cost.. (Not to mention the size..I don't have room for a 100uF polyprop)
The BG was 18,2 Euro apiece, I reckon a polyprop that size would cost around 45 euro.
By the way...If I have to put it in my own words, it made my system sound richer/textured/fatter in a colored sort of way but colored in a good way, if you know what I mean.
They are staying in for as long as they last!
Hi Bas,
Don't be disappointed if after a few hours the sound goes 'sour', as I am sure it will, as I have mentioned several times in these BG posts.
It always happens, and if you rush to make any judgements, you will not be experiencing just how good these caps can sound.
They will undergo a lot of changes for the next few days, and, at times, will probably sound very much more coloured and not nice at all.
The first time I heard this, I was ready take the BGs out again, as the sound was so disappointing at times.
However, after a week of continuous use to complete what Jelmax describe as 'the idling process' (this is different from the usual 'ageing' or burning-in process, and the time taken is dependant on the signal level involved), matters will settle down and the sound will improve no end.
I have still heard improvements during the first three or more months, after which time they sound absolutely gorgeous, in my opinion.
They are (relatively, when compared with other much more mundane caps) expensive, but I know of no other cap which can effect such an overall improvement, so, although I hate their price, I will not now use any other electrolytic.
In Jonathan's comments, he said he preferred some 'specials' which he has made up for himself, and assuming they are better than BGs, I would dearly like to hear some of them as they must be really out of this world!
Regrettably, when I asked him if he might make these 'Specials' available to we DIYers, Jonathan did not respond to my query.
Regards,
Don't be disappointed if after a few hours the sound goes 'sour', as I am sure it will, as I have mentioned several times in these BG posts.
It always happens, and if you rush to make any judgements, you will not be experiencing just how good these caps can sound.
They will undergo a lot of changes for the next few days, and, at times, will probably sound very much more coloured and not nice at all.
The first time I heard this, I was ready take the BGs out again, as the sound was so disappointing at times.
However, after a week of continuous use to complete what Jelmax describe as 'the idling process' (this is different from the usual 'ageing' or burning-in process, and the time taken is dependant on the signal level involved), matters will settle down and the sound will improve no end.
I have still heard improvements during the first three or more months, after which time they sound absolutely gorgeous, in my opinion.
They are (relatively, when compared with other much more mundane caps) expensive, but I know of no other cap which can effect such an overall improvement, so, although I hate their price, I will not now use any other electrolytic.
In Jonathan's comments, he said he preferred some 'specials' which he has made up for himself, and assuming they are better than BGs, I would dearly like to hear some of them as they must be really out of this world!
Regrettably, when I asked him if he might make these 'Specials' available to we DIYers, Jonathan did not respond to my query.
Regards,
SPECIAL OEMS.
Hi,
Bob,if you were in Jonathans' shoes,would you?
re:idling:I hate the idea of this long run in period unless it can be done somewhere outside the amp it is going to be used in of course.
Can you imagine how frustrating it can get having to listen to a sytem that changes its' colours more than a healthy cameleon?
Cheers,
Hi,
Bob,if you were in Jonathans' shoes,would you?
re:idling:I hate the idea of this long run in period unless it can be done somewhere outside the amp it is going to be used in of course.
Can you imagine how frustrating it can get having to listen to a sytem that changes its' colours more than a healthy cameleon?
Cheers,
Re: SPECIAL OEMS.
Hi Frank,
"Quote"
Bob,if you were in Jonathans' shoes,would you?
*** Most likely not, Frank. As I have already said somewhere on the Forum. I don't blame him at all, but I would still be interested to see (hear!!) what they sound like!
***
re:idling:I hate the idea of this long run in period unless it can be done somewhere outside the amp it is going to be used in of course.
*** Yes, this is a real pain in the a*s*, but I don't know (yet!) of any better caps, so I have to put up with this.***
Can you imagine how frustrating it can get having to listen to a sytem that changes its' colours more than a healthy cameleon?
*** In fact I also alluded to this in my comments to Jonathan, since in production, this must be a nightmare, whereas for we DIYers, it is just a nuisance.***
The fact that I will put up with this and the ridiculous costs, should indicate to any 'doubting Thomases' just how much I regard these caps!
Regards,
Hi Frank,
"Quote"
Bob,if you were in Jonathans' shoes,would you?
*** Most likely not, Frank. As I have already said somewhere on the Forum. I don't blame him at all, but I would still be interested to see (hear!!) what they sound like!
***re:idling:I hate the idea of this long run in period unless it can be done somewhere outside the amp it is going to be used in of course.
*** Yes, this is a real pain in the a*s*, but I don't know (yet!) of any better caps, so I have to put up with this.***
Can you imagine how frustrating it can get having to listen to a sytem that changes its' colours more than a healthy cameleon?
*** In fact I also alluded to this in my comments to Jonathan, since in production, this must be a nightmare, whereas for we DIYers, it is just a nuisance.***
The fact that I will put up with this and the ridiculous costs, should indicate to any 'doubting Thomases' just how much I regard these caps!
Regards,
Thanks for warning me Bobken..
I have not had atrocious sound yet! But there was a little lack of transparancy ..well still is..
Initial results are positive. Bass has improved without a shadow of a doubt! But the suprising thing is the high freq's..now I'll just wait 500hours for the mids to open up!
I'll post my results in about 3 months time!
Like I said, they seem like a bargain to me! So far one of my best investments yet. But there is not a lot of love going around if you proclaim BG's to be good.
I'm afraid even my web buddies, will detest me now for joining the lunatic fringe of boutique parts users.
I have not had atrocious sound yet! But there was a little lack of transparancy ..well still is..
Initial results are positive. Bass has improved without a shadow of a doubt! But the suprising thing is the high freq's..now I'll just wait 500hours for the mids to open up!
I'll post my results in about 3 months time!
Like I said, they seem like a bargain to me! So far one of my best investments yet. But there is not a lot of love going around if you proclaim BG's to be good.
I'm afraid even my web buddies, will detest me now for joining the lunatic fringe of boutique parts users.
I'm not Sjef..but this is where I got them from..
http://www.triodedick.com/mededelingenbord.htm
Sorry..you mean the super e types ofcourse..did not realize that until after I posted...
The link is only for NH and standard BG's.
http://www.triodedick.com/mededelingenbord.htm
Sorry..you mean the super e types ofcourse..did not realize that until after I posted...
The link is only for NH and standard BG's.
me Bas.
Bas Horneman said:Thanks for warning me Bobken..
I have not had atrocious sound yet! But there was a little lack of transparancy ..well still is..
Initial results are positive. Bass has improved without a shadow of a doubt! But the suprising thing is the high freq's..now I'll just wait 500hours for the mids to open up!
I'll post my results in about 3 months time!
Like I said, they seem like a bargain to me! So far one of my best investments yet. But there is not a lot of love going around if you proclaim BG's to be good.
I'm afraid even my web buddies, will detest me now for joining the lunatic fringe of boutique parts users.
Hi,
If you have read many of my other posts on BGs (there have been 3 different threads recently), you will realise the truth about there being "little love for those who proclaim BGs are good" alright!
What a crazy world we live in when normally sensible people get so worked up about matters they don't fully understand.
If only they would stop for a momont and wonder to themselves why we should try to convince ourselves (or them!) that such awkward situations like these (i.e. impractical, high-cost items, less easily obtainable, and a real nuisance to burn in) are better than the other alternatives, if they are not, I cannot imagine.
As I have said on the Forum before, why do we pick on these particular caps as opposed to the many other 'boutique' caps which I have also tried, if they all sound as good, or even the same as each other?
It is interesting that no-one until Craig Buckingham (quite recently) has suggested that *after actually trying BGs* they felt that there was an 'obtainable' alternative, let alone something which they believe is better. Most of the daft comments come from those who postulate from their arm chairs and who are too lazy even to try these things out for themselves.
I have yet to obtain the caps which Craig recommended, but when I do, and assuming I agree with him that they are better 'sounding' when I have given them a fair trial for myself, I will willingly and openly say so as I have no allegiance to BGs per se.
I am quite certain you still have a lot of improvement in the sound of these caps yet to come, and I am equally certain that you will not regret having installed them.
Regards,
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