Chris, on another note, after re-reading your post I noticed your references to commercial work. I guess on my first read I didn't get past the adhesive/solvent bit before I started typing.
Up until about 3 years ago I was a minority owner/managing partner of a commercial casework-millwork company here in Missouri. We were an AWI shop and as of 2001 were only one of two shops in the state of Missouri with AWI label certification.
We primarily did school, hospital and office building projects.
Also being located in the State Capitol we had over time developed a good relationship with those in design and development for state properties. We did a lot of work for the state especially in the Capitol building and the other neat state buildings in Jefferson City.
Ya know, it suddenly occurs to me that I'm rambling on about things that don't pertain to fullrange speakers.
Sorry.
Rick
Up until about 3 years ago I was a minority owner/managing partner of a commercial casework-millwork company here in Missouri. We were an AWI shop and as of 2001 were only one of two shops in the state of Missouri with AWI label certification.
We primarily did school, hospital and office building projects.
Also being located in the State Capitol we had over time developed a good relationship with those in design and development for state properties. We did a lot of work for the state especially in the Capitol building and the other neat state buildings in Jefferson City.
Ya know, it suddenly occurs to me that I'm rambling on about things that don't pertain to fullrange speakers.
Sorry.
Rick
i use the fe166e's in my bibs,,, the pics are in the main bib post......
on the veneering issue, couldn't you veneeer the wood first ? themakeyour cuts?? .i wasalso gonna chimein with using a vacum press ,but saw that someone allready did
btw, have built my bibs for a while now and still satisfied with the results .......even if they are 3/4 mdf,,,,,
later ,,
chris
on the veneering issue, couldn't you veneeer the wood first ? themakeyour cuts?? .i wasalso gonna chimein with using a vacum press ,but saw that someone allready did
btw, have built my bibs for a while now and still satisfied with the results .......even if they are 3/4 mdf,,,,,
later ,,
chris
oface said:
That could be done Chris, but why?
How would you then assemble the pieces? Remember, you've got more than the outside pieces to worry about, you also have the internal piece and the bottom end cap to worry about.
The assembly method I used on mine and will use again consist of cutting the pieces, using biscuit splines for alignment, dry fitting to make sure everything jives, and then using the biscuits with glue and crown staples to put it together. I'd also mark a center line on the two sides to make hitting the interior piece easier. Oh another thing, I don't think it necessary to use biscuits on the angled interior part. The glue will seal it's edges. especially since you'd use a drywall screw, staple, or nail about every 4" or so.
You could also dado and rabbit everything but the setup time doesn't seem worth the trouble.
Chris, when you say press, do you mean bag? It'd be a rare diy'er who had a cold press. I also don't see a need to use a vacuum system on a flat surface. Also many of the cheaper systems are notorious for leaking air thus loosing vacuum. You'd better hope the glue has set before that happens. Besides, using carpenters glue will lengthen the process by a factor of 10 assuming your going to veneer all 4 sides.
Another thing I wouldn't like about mitering everything first would be the lack of control you'd have in centering the veneer figure on a given side. This is especially important on the face of the cabinets. If you're going to spend the extra money on veneer you should get the most from it appearance wise.
Look, I'm not trying to denigrate any one system. I'm also not trying to say that there's only one right way to build a cabinet. I am saying that some methods are unnecessarily difficult, time consuming, and offer no real benefit for the trouble.
Have fun.
Rick
True enough. Terry Cain for his first pair mitred all the edges, then, after adding the internal baffle, simply folded them up with the masking tape method. Whatever works best for you. I just use simple butt-joints and a large amount of evenly distributed weight stacked on top. Works for me.
PVA vs Contact Cement:
I don't doubt that good results can be obtained with CC. However, it is next to impossible to one-man my speakers with CC. Let me explain.
As long as the circumference of the cabinet is less than 48" (the width of a standard sheet of veneer), I put a 3/4" roundover on all of the vertical edges and wrap a single piece of veneer completely around the cabinet. You can imagine the nightmare of trying to keep the cabinet and the veneer apart as I work my way around the cabinet. even using wax paper to keep things apart is iffy. One slip and the project is ruined.
With PVA, I can align the veneer and lightly clamp it to the cabinet before I start ironing it down. then I can simply roll the cabinet from side to side, laying the cabinet on the pre-glued veneer without any worry about sticking in the wrong place.
When I am doing a single flat surface, such as the back of a cabinet that is too large for a complete wrap-around, I will cheat on the procedure and simply apply a thin coat of PVA to the cabinet and the veneer and slap them together. I use a suitable sized board to apply pressure to make the veneer lie down flat. You don't need much pressure. This is not a structural joint.
Bob
I don't doubt that good results can be obtained with CC. However, it is next to impossible to one-man my speakers with CC. Let me explain.
As long as the circumference of the cabinet is less than 48" (the width of a standard sheet of veneer), I put a 3/4" roundover on all of the vertical edges and wrap a single piece of veneer completely around the cabinet. You can imagine the nightmare of trying to keep the cabinet and the veneer apart as I work my way around the cabinet. even using wax paper to keep things apart is iffy. One slip and the project is ruined.
With PVA, I can align the veneer and lightly clamp it to the cabinet before I start ironing it down. then I can simply roll the cabinet from side to side, laying the cabinet on the pre-glued veneer without any worry about sticking in the wrong place.
When I am doing a single flat surface, such as the back of a cabinet that is too large for a complete wrap-around, I will cheat on the procedure and simply apply a thin coat of PVA to the cabinet and the veneer and slap them together. I use a suitable sized board to apply pressure to make the veneer lie down flat. You don't need much pressure. This is not a structural joint.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Bob
Right. For me at least, I've found adding screws into MDF doesn't really help much. That probably says more about me than anything else though. Whatever works best for the builder is my motto.
Bob -that's very interesting, I didn't know you wrapped a single piece of veneer around your boxes. Explains why the finish is so good of course... I'll have to try that. Although nowhere in the UK sells 4x8 sheets of veneer of course, which might make it a bit tricky.
Bob -that's very interesting, I didn't know you wrapped a single piece of veneer around your boxes. Explains why the finish is so good of course... I'll have to try that. Although nowhere in the UK sells 4x8 sheets of veneer of course, which might make it a bit tricky.
The secret to butt joints: Bar clamps -- lots of them!
Bob
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Bob
Hi Bob,
I'm not going to say that your methods are bad. To the contrary it appears you do a good job of building your enclosures.
That said, I have to disagree that a curved or multi sided item can't be veneered using contact adhesive by one person. Since carpenters glue takes so long to tack out when covered the likelihood of getting creep or bubbles is great, especially for someone making their first attempt.
In this instance lets say all four vertical corners are rounded. Lay a slightly oversized piece of veneer on your work bench or in a pinch the floor. If you end up using the floor make sure it's clean and free of grit.
Mark on the back of the veneer and the ends of the cabinet your centerline. Again proper positioning is critical when using book matched veneer.
Next spray a narrow strip of adhesive down the center of the back of your cabinet. Spray this light as at this point it won't take much to hold the veneer. Bring one half of the veneer up to the back making sure that it's tight and not trying to wander any.
Next spray another light stripe of adhesive about 2 or 3 inches out from center and toward the second half of veneer. As the first one did for the other half this will hold it inplace while you move to the next step.
Don't worry about the adhesive stripes causing trouble down the road cause since the adhesive is sprayed lightly on only one face of the cabinet and not on the corresponding piece of veneer it'll be far from a permanent bond. Your only using it as an aid in alignment so you can score the second leaf of veneer.
Once you're happy with both the alignment and snugness of fit you're ready to cut the veneer to size. Since you cut your piece of veneer an inch or so oversize they will overlap each other a bit. Now using a straight edge and sharp box knife score the veneer about an 1/8" oversize. Don't cut through it at this point.
Now you take the veneer off the cabinet but first put a pencil mark at four points on the veneer showing roughly the amount that is to be covered by the face of the cabinet. Now lay it flat on the bench or clean floor. Again using the straight edge and the box knife finish the cut you started earlier.
Place the cabinet upon it's back so you have access to it's face. Apply adhesive to cabinet face going just past the two radius corners. Now apply adhesive to the corresponding section of veneer. Place four of your dowel rods length wise on the glued face, leave about 4" of space between the inner two rods. Now pick up your piece of veneer and place on the rods. Position the veneer until you're happy with it's placement, in this case you're simply lining up the pencil marks you made earlier. Take a piece of wood or another dowel and press the center down until it makes contact with the cabinet surface. If you're happy so far proceed, if not release the adhesive with thinner and start anew.
Now assuming you've successfully got the center stuck you can work one side down by removing dowels from the center out and smoothing as you go with one of the removed dowels. Once you reach the edge you simply let that side droop and finish the other in the same manner.
So good so far. Next while at one end of the cabinet roll it so you can tuck one side of the veneer under the cabinet to keep it out of harms way. That done roll the cabinet 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Now the cabinet is again on it's face and you will have allowed both sides of the veneer to lay flat on the bench or floor. Spray the cabinet side. Roll 90 degrees away from the face you just sprayed and put dowels on it running length ways. Now spray the veneer piece. Lay it over the dowels. Starting from the previously glued edge and working toward the opposite side remove the dowels and smooth down the veneer as you go.
Do the otherside in the same manner. Your almost done at this point. So far it's probably only taken you 30 minutes, 45 if you're being really, really cautious. Not a bad thing.
Now using the same technique you can do the back. When this is completed the two edges that join at the back will overlap some. Good. Now simply take the straight edge and box knife and trim the excess and you'll have a near perfect seam. Even though the veneer face had been glued it won't stick well to and unglued surface so this step is easier than it may look at first.
At this point I'd say you're an hour to an hour and a half into it. You're now ready for the second one which will go quicker than the first.
Really the trick to doing this successfully is placing the dowels in the spots they need to be for each step, and common sense will tell where that needs to be.
Cut or route the waste away at the ends are you're ready for surface prep so you can start finishing.
You've just got to the finish step in less than half a day. And there's no worry of the veneer moving on you either. You also won't have glue over time creeping out of the seams.
Rick
I'm not going to say that your methods are bad. To the contrary it appears you do a good job of building your enclosures.
That said, I have to disagree that a curved or multi sided item can't be veneered using contact adhesive by one person. Since carpenters glue takes so long to tack out when covered the likelihood of getting creep or bubbles is great, especially for someone making their first attempt.
In this instance lets say all four vertical corners are rounded. Lay a slightly oversized piece of veneer on your work bench or in a pinch the floor. If you end up using the floor make sure it's clean and free of grit.
Mark on the back of the veneer and the ends of the cabinet your centerline. Again proper positioning is critical when using book matched veneer.
Next spray a narrow strip of adhesive down the center of the back of your cabinet. Spray this light as at this point it won't take much to hold the veneer. Bring one half of the veneer up to the back making sure that it's tight and not trying to wander any.
Next spray another light stripe of adhesive about 2 or 3 inches out from center and toward the second half of veneer. As the first one did for the other half this will hold it inplace while you move to the next step.
Don't worry about the adhesive stripes causing trouble down the road cause since the adhesive is sprayed lightly on only one face of the cabinet and not on the corresponding piece of veneer it'll be far from a permanent bond. Your only using it as an aid in alignment so you can score the second leaf of veneer.
Once you're happy with both the alignment and snugness of fit you're ready to cut the veneer to size. Since you cut your piece of veneer an inch or so oversize they will overlap each other a bit. Now using a straight edge and sharp box knife score the veneer about an 1/8" oversize. Don't cut through it at this point.
Now you take the veneer off the cabinet but first put a pencil mark at four points on the veneer showing roughly the amount that is to be covered by the face of the cabinet. Now lay it flat on the bench or clean floor. Again using the straight edge and the box knife finish the cut you started earlier.
Place the cabinet upon it's back so you have access to it's face. Apply adhesive to cabinet face going just past the two radius corners. Now apply adhesive to the corresponding section of veneer. Place four of your dowel rods length wise on the glued face, leave about 4" of space between the inner two rods. Now pick up your piece of veneer and place on the rods. Position the veneer until you're happy with it's placement, in this case you're simply lining up the pencil marks you made earlier. Take a piece of wood or another dowel and press the center down until it makes contact with the cabinet surface. If you're happy so far proceed, if not release the adhesive with thinner and start anew.
Now assuming you've successfully got the center stuck you can work one side down by removing dowels from the center out and smoothing as you go with one of the removed dowels. Once you reach the edge you simply let that side droop and finish the other in the same manner.
So good so far. Next while at one end of the cabinet roll it so you can tuck one side of the veneer under the cabinet to keep it out of harms way. That done roll the cabinet 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Now the cabinet is again on it's face and you will have allowed both sides of the veneer to lay flat on the bench or floor. Spray the cabinet side. Roll 90 degrees away from the face you just sprayed and put dowels on it running length ways. Now spray the veneer piece. Lay it over the dowels. Starting from the previously glued edge and working toward the opposite side remove the dowels and smooth down the veneer as you go.
Do the otherside in the same manner. Your almost done at this point. So far it's probably only taken you 30 minutes, 45 if you're being really, really cautious. Not a bad thing.
Now using the same technique you can do the back. When this is completed the two edges that join at the back will overlap some. Good. Now simply take the straight edge and box knife and trim the excess and you'll have a near perfect seam. Even though the veneer face had been glued it won't stick well to and unglued surface so this step is easier than it may look at first.
At this point I'd say you're an hour to an hour and a half into it. You're now ready for the second one which will go quicker than the first.
Really the trick to doing this successfully is placing the dowels in the spots they need to be for each step, and common sense will tell where that needs to be.
Cut or route the waste away at the ends are you're ready for surface prep so you can start finishing.
You've just got to the finish step in less than half a day. And there's no worry of the veneer moving on you either. You also won't have glue over time creeping out of the seams.
Rick
Another product that the diy'er could use using the same techniques as you would contact adhesive.
Something I wondered earlier. You guys do know that contact cement and contact adhesive are not one and same don't you?
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/...unting_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html
Something I wondered earlier. You guys do know that contact cement and contact adhesive are not one and same don't you?
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/...unting_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html
Rick J. B. said:
I agree 100%. Those clamps that you can buy at Harbor Freight (for example) are the right color, but there is nothing more frustrating than having to fight with cheap clamps during a glue-up.
I will also back-up Rick when it comes to contact cement. The 'trick', as he said, is to have plenty of rods to separate the veneer from the work piece. It's really very easy to pull the rods out one at a time as you stick down the veneer (though I usually start from the center, not one end; to each his own.) Having said that, I have not tried to use a single sheet to veneer around all four sides of an enclosure with rounded edges. That would be more of a challenge with CC.
-- Dave
hey rick ,, yeah i had a few drinks when i posted and after i posted, i realized that you would have to make the cuts,,and risk damaging the vaneer ..
i did mean a coldpress...
also your dowel technique ,I have seen used manyof a time aswell
scott, i used butt joints on this pair,, i did a proto pair with mitered edges and the results were not too pretty ,, but i was getting a wee bit impatient,, something you shouldn't do while working with power tools or wood,,,, but my final result was and has been pretty good overall,
everyone have a nice holiday
chris
i did mean a coldpress...
also your dowel technique ,I have seen used manyof a time aswell
scott, i used butt joints on this pair,, i did a proto pair with mitered edges and the results were not too pretty ,, but i was getting a wee bit impatient,, something you shouldn't do while working with power tools or wood,,,, but my final result was and has been pretty good overall,
everyone have a nice holiday
chris
I tried a pair of the Chinese, Pony clamp, clones. Jeesh, on the fixed jaw, the surface of the pad that comes in contact with your work was so rough that had I not filed it, it would have left a scar on anything it came in contact with. Also the steel used for the bars doesn't compare with the Jorgenson Pony's. It's not nearly as rigid.
I had to use this technique once for a project that had an interesting reception desk. The spec called for veneered pillars. Well after pricing premade units which were outrageous I decided to make my own using sono tubes. It proved to be far easier than I thought. And as I explained fixing a screw up isn't hard either.
You know if a guy wanted rounded corners on the front you could make the process even easier by leaving the back corners square. In that way you could simply paint or veneer the back first and then the front and sides.
Oh well, lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat.
Rick
dragonfly rings...
damnit!!!!
I wanted some for my 108esIIs. swans with those drivers need the rings to make the little boxes' volume right, owing to magnet doubling!
so I think that they still have some stock on the 168 rings. I might buy a pair for personal use.
other than that, a high specific gravity suprabaffle does the trick for mass loading, but not as directly as the rings did. those things were nuts.
needed more for the sigma stuff than the special edition stuff.
stupid brass prices!
I saw terry play with the rings on and off. they made a nice difference. probably recommended for after when you finally get the amps right. the fostex drivers are such a deal and undervalued anyways that yeah, I think that you are still getting a deal considering the extra price.
well, have a lookey here at a design I am dreaming up for the 168EZ. can't post a picture any bigger so use your imagination.
Clark
damnit!!!!
I wanted some for my 108esIIs. swans with those drivers need the rings to make the little boxes' volume right, owing to magnet doubling!
so I think that they still have some stock on the 168 rings. I might buy a pair for personal use.
other than that, a high specific gravity suprabaffle does the trick for mass loading, but not as directly as the rings did. those things were nuts.
needed more for the sigma stuff than the special edition stuff.
stupid brass prices!
I saw terry play with the rings on and off. they made a nice difference. probably recommended for after when you finally get the amps right. the fostex drivers are such a deal and undervalued anyways that yeah, I think that you are still getting a deal considering the extra price.
well, have a lookey here at a design I am dreaming up for the 168EZ. can't post a picture any bigger so use your imagination.
Clark
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