Have you tried the large SEOS horns (like SEOS-18)? Directivity looks very good on those. Someone posted similar sort of system on AA using TAD4001 in one of the larger SEOS horns similar to how you described its use with a radial.
I have a pair of these thanks to a very generous forum member. The main problem (for me) has been finding the time to work with them. I'm hoping that with the right horn and crossover they can be the holy grail of horndom. Maybe.
The rounded fin termination offers an opportunity to begin opening the sides at that point, all else working out.
Not that it would be any easier than with an axis-symmetric horn, I'd assume.
One thing I've noticed with horns that are more narrow in the vertical but end at around 90 degrees is the Keele style pattern extension offered by baffle mounting, eg Klipsch Jubilee.
Mine too. You can do it with LM555 drivers on 160Hz jmlc horns (1.2m long x 720mm mouth), crossed over at 320 Hz 1st order to 50Hz 1/2 WL horns (L shaped 1.7m long, 1100 x 770 mouth). I use Jensen A12 drivers now, I love field coils. I made a single tapped pipe / horn 3.2m long for a sub. Don't give up on the quest. You can run it on low power SETs and the cross over is easy to get right. I do the HP as RL calculated for the attenuation needed, and bypass the R with a C for some extra top end lift. You can get to10K Hz. I use a Fostex T900A tweeter on top. The alternative to the 555 (and a good one imo) is a Lowther type. You get a similar feel, but lose the precision and depth.
best martin
The reason why I have the TD-4001 is that i got a pair at a very fair price, the main reason why i stick with it is the way it sounds. It is so good on voices on the TH-4001, but only after adding curved felt padding as mouth extensions.
Below this horn i have a GPA 416-16B and above it if needed a T900 from Fostex. For subs i have 4 JBL 2245H that i plan on using distributed around the room. The plan is to use the mid horn from around 600 and upwards. How to handle the handover to the T900 is still an open question, i want to make the GPA/TAD combo as good as i can first. I have tried the 416 in smallish closed box, Gary Dahl style, and it is very nice. I might add some horizontal flare in front of it to make the handover to the TAD a bit more seamless.
//Anders
Below this horn i have a GPA 416-16B and above it if needed a T900 from Fostex. For subs i have 4 JBL 2245H that i plan on using distributed around the room. The plan is to use the mid horn from around 600 and upwards. How to handle the handover to the T900 is still an open question, i want to make the GPA/TAD combo as good as i can first. I have tried the 416 in smallish closed box, Gary Dahl style, and it is very nice. I might add some horizontal flare in front of it to make the handover to the TAD a bit more seamless.
//Anders
Bappe,
A lot will depend on how wide a dispersion you want and need from the 4001 driver. If you are going to sit basically on axis I would think that you should be able to top out at about 12Khz with that driver. If you want a wide dispersion then things will be different. I would probably not add any low pass xo on that driver, just let it run up as high as it will go. It will be the high pass network on the Fostex that you will have to resolve.
A lot will depend on how wide a dispersion you want and need from the 4001 driver. If you are going to sit basically on axis I would think that you should be able to top out at about 12Khz with that driver. If you want a wide dispersion then things will be different. I would probably not add any low pass xo on that driver, just let it run up as high as it will go. It will be the high pass network on the Fostex that you will have to resolve.
At the time Lynn commissioned the AH420 horns I was using Yamaha JA6681 drivers on jmlc 160Hz horns with bass horn above,. I changed the drivers over onto the 425 horns, biamping with digital cross overs and delay. 600Hz 3rd order. Lowthers on 2.3m bass horns. I really liked this arrangement and used it for a long time. Substituting TD15M in Onken enclosures for the bass horns in a parallel system was nothing but trouble, or just always had a character I didn't like much. Those same TD15M on the bass horn were sweet. Bass horns are just so easy on the ears, dynamic and invisible. Great for jazz on their own, but you need a sub that integrates well for distant kettle drums. Just made a new AH425 horn mould, from the original female - polishing it up today.
I have tried a few different horns and drivers for the past six months. The first ones where more wave guides than horns and all of them, regardless of size, where no god under 1-1.5k, they play lower but without any real impact and authority. Next up was JMLC 270 and EJMLC 300, these where much better, the EJMLC 300 + B&C DCM50 was very good but it took a a lot of work with my a listening space to get it good, more so than i am willing to do. I do not have a dedicated listening room, the room used is the one me and my partner is spending most of our time in. It is large. 8x6x4 meters approximately, with very live acoustics and the speakers will have to be placed quite near the corners on the 6m wall. So my conclusion from the above is that i want the good load from a "proper" horn and as constant directivity as possible to avoid to much early reflections. That is why i tried the radial TH-4001 and it is the best fit so far, it seems to be a fair compromise between loading and directivity.
/Anders
/Anders
I have the little 12" and after trying to use it wide range I let them sit on the shelf for a couple years. They required too much eq in the low range for me. I recently did a test of six horns for treble with the Celestion CDX1730 for the 3K up range and they actually were the best of the bunch.
I didn't know they made a SEOS horn for 2" exit drivers? edited - do you mean TAD 4002 1.5"?
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Hello, glad to see you are making horns again.
I think if you design and produce a horn to go below the AH425 you should consider the B&C 8PE21 8" driver. Maybe loading down to 100-120 Hz. In my horns they can be crossed as high as 800-900 Hz and embarrass all the horn loaded 15's I have heard.
Just get the TAD large format drivers and some horns at least this size.
You might like it, I feel it is a a big step back from using multi horns - say one to cover each decade. 60-600, 600-6000, 6000 up
The large wooden horn shown below would do 300-350 cycles with the TAD large format up but was about 2 feet deeper for the 2" throat. I have some radial horns that are 34" wide and 12" tall and two feet deep that have a 220 Hz flare and they will only load the driver to 500-600 cycles.
What you imagine doing and getting good results ? Likely not - the big multicells sound no better, a big radial like the EV "Great White Whales" might be alright for you? I couldn't get good sound crossed below 600 Hz with them.
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My dream is to go as low as possible, at least 300Hz and up to 6000Hz with no crossover in that range.
If i can go higher than 6000 then so much the better.
I love old movies and they are usually limited 6000 on the high side.
The WE for theaters would probably be ideal, though a bit big.
I notice the atlas PD60 can cover the range but I doubt its fidelity.
I am thinking of crossing the geddes throat with the JMLC mouth.
I am saving my pennies for a 3D printer to create the horn and then to cover the horn with cement for rigidity.
...one day...
myhrrhleine,
Sounds like a very vintage WE or RCA, don't remember who that was. Ubangi enclosure would get you close to what you are looking for. Add a nice horn on top and some subs and have a great theater system that can play some nice music.
Sounds like a very vintage WE or RCA, don't remember who that was. Ubangi enclosure would get you close to what you are looking for. Add a nice horn on top and some subs and have a great theater system that can play some nice music.
That would be most interesting! I'd settle for a 2-octave bandwidth of 200~800 Hz, in the interests of shipping and compactness. Direct radiators are in their element from 200 Hz on down, and it's safely below the region of cabinet coloration and box modes.
One thing dipoles and bass horns share is an absence of the usual cabinet coloration and box modes, although bass horns have far more dynamic range and more vivid tone colors. Neither sounds like direct-radiator drivers in big boxes.
My guess is that it's the annoying big-box coloration that makes the transition between direct-radiator and horn/waveguide more noticeable, perhaps because perception of box coloration is level-dependent. If this is what's going on, system integration will change character depending on playback level.
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What a pity it's not a multi-amp or active, you could perhaps be happy with a raw OB 12" for 200-800 !
(but max dB output with classical prg?!)
So what is the best option for this transition ? We come back always to :
- Onken + 416-8 (but for bass too)
- Vott + 416-8 (but high-pass is 60-80 Hz... can be good for multiple sub with plate amps à la Gedlee - but OT as no one box project and multi amps needed for subs)
- Direct horn + 8" (... the length : 1 meter ! or folded like a TL but sealed?)
- Sloated Something à la N. Pass ?
Any other way to avoid sound box in this range ? (but the huge folded horn with compression driver I mean ! (not wallet friendly or waf or square-meter price friendly too !)
(but max dB output with classical prg?!)So what is the best option for this transition ? We come back always to :
- Onken + 416-8 (but for bass too)
- Vott + 416-8 (but high-pass is 60-80 Hz... can be good for multiple sub with plate amps à la Gedlee - but OT as no one box project and multi amps needed for subs)
- Direct horn + 8" (... the length : 1 meter ! or folded like a TL but sealed?)
- Sloated Something à la N. Pass ?
Any other way to avoid sound box in this range ? (but the huge folded horn with compression driver I mean ! (not wallet friendly or waf or square-meter price friendly too !)
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BMS 4592 coax
The impetus for considering this driver, was to possibly load into a pair of
Sierra-Brooks LeGrand 32's. You probably are already aware that Bert Doppenberg uses this driver in one of his systems. But, not in the exact stock version. Evidently, there is a slight flaw in the design, and I did read about the "fix" somewhere on the 'net. I think a passive 7K x-over is also available, but I would be inclined to go active on this. Pano, please keep us informed if you make any progress !
Best regards,
Scott L.
The impetus for considering this driver, was to possibly load into a pair of
Sierra-Brooks LeGrand 32's. You probably are already aware that Bert Doppenberg uses this driver in one of his systems. But, not in the exact stock version. Evidently, there is a slight flaw in the design, and I did read about the "fix" somewhere on the 'net. I think a passive 7K x-over is also available, but I would be inclined to go active on this. Pano, please keep us informed if you make any progress !
Best regards,
Scott L.
I think it's the small throat, light cone, strong magnet coupling to the horn mouth and room air compared to a direct radiator flapping around - when used with a compression driver using lower midrange upper bass horn it's night and day. The little 8" B&C does a great job. What I'm building right now the horn will actually cross around 150 and below it I have four 8" 8 ohm woofers wired in parallel @ around 103 db/w/m. They are going down to 50 Hz - a line array laying on it's side time aligned (used as a stand for the back of the midbass horn) with the upper horns. So far i like it - only have one built.
Anders,
I'm playing my TAD 4001s on Electro Voice HP9040 constant directivity horns. Crossover frequency is 630 Hz 18 dB Butterworth on the horns and 450 Hz 18 dB on the TAD 1601 bass speakers. The 80 cm long horns provide a good a good loading for the Tad 4001s and offer a good directivity control down to 500 Hz. The horns are only slightly equalized as I prefer a decreasing frequency reponse in my small listening room.
/Bodo
Since so many of you propose to use the old Altec or GPA 15" drivers in a sealed enclosure why don't I see anyone looking at the Altec 411-B version that was made for sealed box alignment? I would imagine that GPA has a copy of that driver. Any reason everyone seems to ignore that for a sealed box alignment?
Damn, you're right there is no 2" SEOS
Thought it might have been offered given the overall size of them.