Very cool Gary! You're a brave man to haul the whole system to a meet.
Wish I could have been there.
Hi Pano,
I think you would have enjoyed it a lot. The event was a big success just on the merits of Gary's system and there was a lot more good stuff as well. I had hoped to have some pictures posted, but with the wild weather a lot of people had lost power.
Best Regards,
Terry
It was very good of you to go out of your way with such a full-scale system Garry. This is also what a lot of posters here was looking for.
I used to visit the Seattle area several times a year many years ago. Drove down from Vancouver. Do you remember the old Definitive Audio store in the University area (I think I bought my used SP3 there)? There were a couple of other High-end stores around there as well.
Good old memories from late 70s and 80s.
Nice part of the world.
Thanks for your work,
All the best,
Ron
I used to visit the Seattle area several times a year many years ago. Drove down from Vancouver. Do you remember the old Definitive Audio store in the University area (I think I bought my used SP3 there)? There were a couple of other High-end stores around there as well.
Good old memories from late 70s and 80s.
Nice part of the world.
Thanks for your work,
All the best,
Ron
Nice looking system. Did you extract all the good sound from it in the hotel room?
Thanks Pooh!
The room is a Sunday school space in a church basement. Pacific NW Audio Society held monthly meetings in this church for decades, but recently moved and now uses it only for occasional events.
The acoustic environment was much different than in my home. The room has some odd features--acoustical ceiling tiles covering some of the walls, a cement floor partially covered by area rugs, and an accordion-style room divider that can't be moved completely out of the way. I placed the speakers in the approximate location that had been used for last year's speaker building contest and crossed my fingers.
It worked out very well in some ways. The sound was spacious and filled the room easily. It was brighter than at home, but none of the listeners I asked said it sounded too bright to them. But there was a major standing wave problem that messed up the bass. In my home, bass evenness is one of the system's strong points, so I found this disappointing. Getting the best sound in that room would (for me) take some speaker placement experimentation and adjustment of settings on the plate amp, but I was NOT willing to move the system all over the room looking for the sweet spot.
That said, I was glad to be in a space much bigger than a hotel room!
Later in the day, René Jaeger brought in some 7119 and 7044 for me to try in place of the 5687 drivers in my amps. This was good timing, because I could tell that my 5687's were on their last legs. I went ahead and installed the 7119's. The transformation drew a big reaction from those present, and the remaining listening sessions were the most rewarding of the day.
Gary Dahl
The room is a Sunday school space in a church basement. Pacific NW Audio Society held monthly meetings in this church for decades, but recently moved and now uses it only for occasional events.
The acoustic environment was much different than in my home. The room has some odd features--acoustical ceiling tiles covering some of the walls, a cement floor partially covered by area rugs, and an accordion-style room divider that can't be moved completely out of the way. I placed the speakers in the approximate location that had been used for last year's speaker building contest and crossed my fingers.
It worked out very well in some ways. The sound was spacious and filled the room easily. It was brighter than at home, but none of the listeners I asked said it sounded too bright to them. But there was a major standing wave problem that messed up the bass. In my home, bass evenness is one of the system's strong points, so I found this disappointing. Getting the best sound in that room would (for me) take some speaker placement experimentation and adjustment of settings on the plate amp, but I was NOT willing to move the system all over the room looking for the sweet spot.
That said, I was glad to be in a space much bigger than a hotel room!
Later in the day, René Jaeger brought in some 7119 and 7044 for me to try in place of the 5687 drivers in my amps. This was good timing, because I could tell that my 5687's were on their last legs. I went ahead and installed the 7119's. The transformation drew a big reaction from those present, and the remaining listening sessions were the most rewarding of the day.
Gary Dahl
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Gary,
The room is always the problem and that room looks much larger than the typical hotel room you get to use at a show. What I did in the past was bring some portable panels that we could place around the room. Large glass filled panels covered in indoor outdoor carpeting that would dampen the room. We used a high density glass that was made to wrap boilers and such, much higher density than rolls of glass wall insulation. Perhaps the group you are in could build some and have them for these kinds of events, then at least you could have a better representation of how a speaker would sound in someone's home. It doesn't cost much.
The room is always the problem and that room looks much larger than the typical hotel room you get to use at a show. What I did in the past was bring some portable panels that we could place around the room. Large glass filled panels covered in indoor outdoor carpeting that would dampen the room. We used a high density glass that was made to wrap boilers and such, much higher density than rolls of glass wall insulation. Perhaps the group you are in could build some and have them for these kinds of events, then at least you could have a better representation of how a speaker would sound in someone's home. It doesn't cost much.
That explains the ark 
Moving a dialed in system into a new environment can be futile.
Changing tubes can be addictive. I went into a phase of about 5 years of fiddling and fiddling with all kinds. It's true some can be just incredible standouts. I always like the 45 triode sound on my compression drivers. Now i just fiddle with speakers but not so much since my wife became ill. she is hyper sensitive to sound and smell now with MS. I had to rethink the entire hobby. Now I am becoming a headphone addict.
Moving a dialed in system into a new environment can be futile.Changing tubes can be addictive. I went into a phase of about 5 years of fiddling and fiddling with all kinds. It's true some can be just incredible standouts. I always like the 45 triode sound on my compression drivers. Now i just fiddle with speakers but not so much since my wife became ill. she is hyper sensitive to sound and smell now with MS. I had to rethink the entire hobby. Now I am becoming a headphone addict.
pooh,
I am sorry to hear about your wife, I went through that with mine as she was afflicted with ALS, Lou Gehrig disease and has passed away.
I would think since you have been an audiophile for so long that the change to headphones would be quit stark a change, the loss of the bodies effects and the real difference in the way our ears work with discrimination between time arrivals is so different with headphones. That being the case i wouldn't think there are really that many great sounding headphones, many cheap ones are okay for casual listening but not for critical listening. I guess if I was limited to headphones I would probably look seriously at the electrostatic types. I remember some horribly expensive models from Sennheiser so many years ago, probably the best headphones that I have ever heard.
I am sorry to hear about your wife, I went through that with mine as she was afflicted with ALS, Lou Gehrig disease and has passed away.
I would think since you have been an audiophile for so long that the change to headphones would be quit stark a change, the loss of the bodies effects and the real difference in the way our ears work with discrimination between time arrivals is so different with headphones. That being the case i wouldn't think there are really that many great sounding headphones, many cheap ones are okay for casual listening but not for critical listening. I guess if I was limited to headphones I would probably look seriously at the electrostatic types. I remember some horribly expensive models from Sennheiser so many years ago, probably the best headphones that I have ever heard.
POOH, if I were in your position, I would like to know about the $2000 SPL Phonitor 2 for speaker emulation in a headphone amplifier: Review: SPL Phonitor 2 Preamplifier & Headphone Monitoring Amplifier ? by George Walker Petit | SonicScoop
There is also a Phonitor mini at around $850 with reduced flexibilty.
There is also a Phonitor mini at around $850 with reduced flexibilty.
Thanks, She is doing much better now. It's been 2 years since she went down badly. She really cannot tolerate lots of sounds and really gets anxious if it's too much. I am getting used to the in-the-head sound more and more everyday. I gave been buying up stax and koss electrostatics working and broke and building DIY headphones and amps from all the parts and pieces i have. I also have some pretty high end denon and audio technica (they are 15 miles from me so I get deals) dynamics as well as old AKG electrostatic and hybrids. Been pretty busy with that and enjoying my recordings plus the 50 thousand plus streaming audio channels on the web.
There is all kinds of online headphone software to emulate the out of head sound but i have pretty much built a set from koss electrostatic diaphragms that are freaking killer with a huge three D soundstage. Sorta like the Stax sigma's but better tone and bass. The headphone bass is hard to get used seeing I have always had adequate bass in my main system. After a few minutes of listening now I get pretty satisfied with the in the head bass.
My main system is actually pretty well done but I have four 18's I need to finish the cabinets for to replace the line arrays and corner horns that just take up too much room.
There is all kinds of online headphone software to emulate the out of head sound but i have pretty much built a set from koss electrostatic diaphragms that are freaking killer with a huge three D soundstage. Sorta like the Stax sigma's but better tone and bass. The headphone bass is hard to get used seeing I have always had adequate bass in my main system. After a few minutes of listening now I get pretty satisfied with the in the head bass.
My main system is actually pretty well done but I have four 18's I need to finish the cabinets for to replace the line arrays and corner horns that just take up too much room.
Pooh, I am sorry to hear about your wife's MS. My grandma was diagnosed with MS the same year I was born, and spent her remaining years in a wheelchair. I saw how hard my grandpa worked to take care of her. My heart goes out to both of you.
Kindhornman, I am very sorry for your loss.
Gary Dahl
Kindhornman, I am very sorry for your loss.
Gary Dahl
Thanks Gary. There has been some progress in MS research recently. The best thing we have found to help her through the day though is good old maryjane.
POOH,
my wife hated that idea, she never smoked in her life but it did help her also. It is a shame that people are still so resistant to it when it has been shown to help so many feel better even if for only the short time they have left.
ps. There are two people out there somewhere living because of the Kidneys that she gave them life back with. It is nice to know that a part of her is alive somewhere.
my wife hated that idea, she never smoked in her life but it did help her also. It is a shame that people are still so resistant to it when it has been shown to help so many feel better even if for only the short time they have left.
ps. There are two people out there somewhere living because of the Kidneys that she gave them life back with. It is nice to know that a part of her is alive somewhere.
Sorry to be so far behind, went "caving" this weekend and just got back. No Wi-Fi in a cave.
The thing is that once someone decides to go forward the costs of production become almost negligible. I once calculated that I could make a pair of Abbey's in China for well under $1000 maybe even as low as $500. BUT, I would have to make at least 1000 speakers to do that (and sell them too, of course.) With the extremely wide array of subjective opinions of speakers, no one can sell more than just a few. Now if, but some strange chance, people could actually agree on some design then a 1000 wouldn't be so tough. But with audio the way it is today every Hi-End speaker is a niche product and has to get 10's of thousands to make it even a reasonable proposition.
Unless the speaker is dirt cheap, it will enter this world of diminishing returns and its price will skyrocket.
The thing here is that an auditorium reverb and early reflections start to build in many 10's of ms., while in a small room it is almost over in that same time. How can any recording alter this situation? And those who don't hear or understand this are simply fooling themselves (not that that ever happens in audio.)
The thing is that once someone decides to go forward the costs of production become almost negligible. I once calculated that I could make a pair of Abbey's in China for well under $1000 maybe even as low as $500. BUT, I would have to make at least 1000 speakers to do that (and sell them too, of course.) With the extremely wide array of subjective opinions of speakers, no one can sell more than just a few. Now if, but some strange chance, people could actually agree on some design then a 1000 wouldn't be so tough. But with audio the way it is today every Hi-End speaker is a niche product and has to get 10's of thousands to make it even a reasonable proposition.
Unless the speaker is dirt cheap, it will enter this world of diminishing returns and its price will skyrocket.
The thing here is that an auditorium reverb and early reflections start to build in many 10's of ms., while in a small room it is almost over in that same time. How can any recording alter this situation? And those who don't hear or understand this are simply fooling themselves (not that that ever happens in audio.)
Surround sound and delay? Combined with reasonable absorption on the small room surfaces?
That's my approach. Best I can think of.
It can't of course, but sometimes it sounds like it can.
Depth is the hardest illusion for me to achieve in a small room. The early reflections just tell me that there isn't a lot of space. Width seems easier. With good room treatment and good speakers, some depth can be achieved in a small room. Many people found my Altec setup gave great depth, I rarely did. Sometimes, on some recordings.
In the cave below my new house (no wifi there, either) depth is a natural.
Actually because there is 35 feet behind the speakers and the cave is hypo-echoic, amazing depth can be heard from my modest speakers. Even on mono recordings there can be good depth, much to my surprise. But only on recordings done in a large space. Smaller, drier recordings stay right at the speaker plane. Mixed recordings, like Sinatra in front of a orchestra, have flat and deep sounds combined. Almost like two separate recordings. Depth is very recording specific.I also suspect that the sensation of depth is heightened by visual cues. If you see a wall, you hear a wall. If you see a wall far away, it can sound far away. If I close my eyes in the cave, the sensation of depth is not as great as with eyes open. I've heard/seen that in a garage with the door behind the speakers opened or closed. Some of the effect is auditory, some I believe is visual. Would be interesting to test that.
In any case, a large sound IS difficult in a small room. We can make the room sound larger with a lot of work, but it doesn't come easily.
Not only does it not come easily, it violates every tenant of psychoacoustics. It takes an extremely imaginative person to believe it can happen. I don't.
A dead room, multiples of surround speakers and channels, plenty of computer power?
Sheldon