Suspending dis-belief
There are several mantras that I have discovered that makes a home venue listening experience closer to the real thing. No, of course, it will never be, but most assuredly I have reached a higher percentage of being closer than 33%.
1) At least a medium sized room; allowing a seating position more than 12 feet away, because, we are going to use a horn based system.
2) You have got to be able to MOVE SOME AIR in the lower octaves. And I do mean extension down to at least 25 Hz, FLAT. Hoffman's Iron Law is a LAW for a reason.
3) Dynamic range capabilities; HUGE, and what I mean is the ability to go from pppp to ffff in an instant !
4) Minimalist or complete reduction of modulation distortion. It amazes me how audiophiles go on and on about this, that and the other type of distortion and then completely ignore the most offensive type.
5) Use an active system. A 4 way works the best. 4 well thought out and properly designed "sections" each driven by it's own dedicated power amp.
And good luck finding a crossover that will work. The easiest quickest recommendation is to go with the 4 way all tubed Marchand crossover. There are others that can work, but they are not easily found.
I'm sorry, I know this is $$ expensive and complicated, but it will get you there. It is also out-of-reach for most. That's just a sad fact.
There are several more tidbits I could have addressed and added to this list, but the reality is, I am not a very good typist. Thank God for spell-check.
There are several mantras that I have discovered that makes a home venue listening experience closer to the real thing. No, of course, it will never be, but most assuredly I have reached a higher percentage of being closer than 33%.
1) At least a medium sized room; allowing a seating position more than 12 feet away, because, we are going to use a horn based system.
2) You have got to be able to MOVE SOME AIR in the lower octaves. And I do mean extension down to at least 25 Hz, FLAT. Hoffman's Iron Law is a LAW for a reason.
3) Dynamic range capabilities; HUGE, and what I mean is the ability to go from pppp to ffff in an instant !
4) Minimalist or complete reduction of modulation distortion. It amazes me how audiophiles go on and on about this, that and the other type of distortion and then completely ignore the most offensive type.
5) Use an active system. A 4 way works the best. 4 well thought out and properly designed "sections" each driven by it's own dedicated power amp.
And good luck finding a crossover that will work. The easiest quickest recommendation is to go with the 4 way all tubed Marchand crossover. There are others that can work, but they are not easily found.
I'm sorry, I know this is $$ expensive and complicated, but it will get you there. It is also out-of-reach for most. That's just a sad fact.
There are several more tidbits I could have addressed and added to this list, but the reality is, I am not a very good typist. Thank God for spell-check.
Maybe that's the key right here: "Both didn't have enough power for my speakers."
My two Shekels, Try a higher sensitivity loudspeaker build like what is proposed here with what Lynn and Gary have come up with.. You only live once and you could sell your speakers and take a chance on something in as new direction
In my (admitedly limited) experience, the one thing that made the most immediate difference was adding diffusers (this after having decent speakers and enough room of course). You said you had room treatments, but if they're only the usual absorbers, those could be taking things the wrong direction. For ambience, you dont want to kill sounds at boundaries, you want to make them diffuse and spread them. Concert halls arent dead sounding. You might be able to try some diffusers without breaking the bank.
bwaslo,
Anyone with a saw and some wood can make a diffuser like is seen in many recording studios. Just a bunch of randomly cut lengths of wood put together can do the job, it doesn't have to be expensive or a commercially made product. If you are handy it can even look nice when you are done. Most people who don't know would just think it was a wall decoration, a kind of sculpture.
Anyone with a saw and some wood can make a diffuser like is seen in many recording studios. Just a bunch of randomly cut lengths of wood put together can do the job, it doesn't have to be expensive or a commercially made product. If you are handy it can even look nice when you are done. Most people who don't know would just think it was a wall decoration, a kind of sculpture.
Kindhornman,
Yup, I'm on top of that http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html. A bit better than random, though random can be pretty effective, too.
I didn't mention my design since it's geared for USA standard furring strip sizes. But some large bookshelves with irregularly sized and distributed books and kitch can even help a lot.
Yup, I'm on top of that http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html. A bit better than random, though random can be pretty effective, too.
I didn't mention my design since it's geared for USA standard furring strip sizes. But some large bookshelves with irregularly sized and distributed books and kitch can even help a lot.
Bill,
I see from your thread you thought about this more than most. I was thinking of something using something like 2x2 square stock cut to random lengths and mixed together on end and glued up together. It would give a more scattered reflection but the concept is similar to what you are doing. You could stain or paint the wood and hang it on a back wall behind the sweet spot or have them in multiple positions on the rear wall. Interspersed with that you can also have absorbent panels to dampen room modes. This is what takes a room from just sounding okay to making it sound excellent. A good book on control room design can help a lot in what you are talking about and those who don't have to make the wife happy have the opportunity to make a great sounding room.
I see from your thread you thought about this more than most. I was thinking of something using something like 2x2 square stock cut to random lengths and mixed together on end and glued up together. It would give a more scattered reflection but the concept is similar to what you are doing. You could stain or paint the wood and hang it on a back wall behind the sweet spot or have them in multiple positions on the rear wall. Interspersed with that you can also have absorbent panels to dampen room modes. This is what takes a room from just sounding okay to making it sound excellent. A good book on control room design can help a lot in what you are talking about and those who don't have to make the wife happy have the opportunity to make a great sounding room.
You say "diffuser," I say "strategically placed bookcase with the books pushed all the way in."
The square pieces stacked on end gives you a "2D" diffuser, which diffuses or scatters both horizontally and vertically. In a lot of cases that will scatter a large part of the energy into absorbent objects (carpet, furniture, in my room also into ceiling absorbers), making the diffusers less effective than one might expect. In recording studios they often aim for a diffuse reflection coming from behind 12msec or so after the direct sound, called a "Haas trigger" or "kicker". That is supposed to work psychoacoustically to emphasize hall reflection sounds in a recording (can't say I can follow the theory, but it definitely works). For that, a 1D diffuser, like mine, is needed to provide the diffuse arrival foirm the rear at sufficient strength. 2D diffusers are usually used on the ceiling to mostly get rid of the refection there without losing all the energy. My ceilings aren't high enough to do that, so I had to use absorption there.
bwaslo,
So what you want is to only disperse sound in the horizontal plane and not have any scattering in the vertical plane. I understand but that is not a traditional method I wouldn't think. Now I understand your design for the panels you showed in your thread. I have seen panels with triangular sections running only in the vertical direction.
So what you want is to only disperse sound in the horizontal plane and not have any scattering in the vertical plane. I understand but that is not a traditional method I wouldn't think. Now I understand your design for the panels you showed in your thread. I have seen panels with triangular sections running only in the vertical direction.
Thanks, Scott,
So it's a no go.
I don't have sitting position more than 12 feet away and I don't have any money, other than what I may trade my system's main components for.
So it's a no go.
Maybe that's the key right here: "Both didn't have enough power for my speakers."
My two Shekels, Try a higher sensitivity loudspeaker build like what is proposed here with what Lynn and Gary have come up with.. You only live once and you could sell your speakers and take a chance on something in as new direction
I found no other speakers that sound (to me) as good as mine, sensitive or not.
Off down the garden path.
Nor is the local chapel - but it'd be a dreadful place to set up a stereo system. (It's a beautiful place for a recital - huge reverberation)
Diffusers have a place in two channel systems where they add some diffuse rear reflections (as we have no "rear" channel)
Having been in an anechoic chamber (a long time ago) it's still my point of reference for reproduction of what's on the recording.
Now, the S.A.F. of that sort of chamber is zero so something less perfect is required at home. But, in my experience, (evenly) lossy is good.
I don't want to hear the room I'm in.
Nor is the local chapel - but it'd be a dreadful place to set up a stereo system. (It's a beautiful place for a recital - huge reverberation)
Diffusers have a place in two channel systems where they add some diffuse rear reflections (as we have no "rear" channel)
Having been in an anechoic chamber (a long time ago) it's still my point of reference for reproduction of what's on the recording.
Now, the S.A.F. of that sort of chamber is zero so something less perfect is required at home. But, in my experience, (evenly) lossy is good.
I don't want to hear the room I'm in.
Last edited:
My goodness, the Bosendorfer speakers certainly have glowing reviews! And from the more reputable smaller sites, too.
Every now and then, I hear wonderful sound from speakers (or electronics) that make no sense to me at all. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I just have to accept that I don't know all the answers ... and there's a lot more to human perception than meets the eye.
The revelation of the Ongaku and Reichert Silver 300B was followed by a lot of research into the properties of direct-heated triodes ... most notably, very low inherent distortion, and a favorable spectral distribution. It was a small toehold that grew into a deeper understanding of vacuum-tube theory, and circuits that might take advantage of that.
Unfortunately, the Bosendorfer door is clearly marked "proprietary" and hidden behind exclusive manufacturing processes, so no go there. The reviews and product description provide almost no solid information. You just have to take it on faith.
I frankly don't see any way to copy, modify, or even understand the Bosendorfer speakers. At all. They just have to be accepted as they are. Which makes selection of electronics a random walk, unless Bosendorf has a recommended list of vendors. Audio Note, maybe?
Every now and then, I hear wonderful sound from speakers (or electronics) that make no sense to me at all. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I just have to accept that I don't know all the answers ... and there's a lot more to human perception than meets the eye.
The revelation of the Ongaku and Reichert Silver 300B was followed by a lot of research into the properties of direct-heated triodes ... most notably, very low inherent distortion, and a favorable spectral distribution. It was a small toehold that grew into a deeper understanding of vacuum-tube theory, and circuits that might take advantage of that.
Unfortunately, the Bosendorfer door is clearly marked "proprietary" and hidden behind exclusive manufacturing processes, so no go there. The reviews and product description provide almost no solid information. You just have to take it on faith.
I frankly don't see any way to copy, modify, or even understand the Bosendorfer speakers. At all. They just have to be accepted as they are. Which makes selection of electronics a random walk, unless Bosendorf has a recommended list of vendors. Audio Note, maybe?
Last edited:
They do provide a 'white paper' of sorts:
http://www.bosendorfer-audio.co.uk/files/technical_folder1.pdf
I haven't read it all yet, but I think it may be interesting to understand their design philosophy a bit better.
Marco
