Personally, I do believe that it is possible to achieve, say, 120dB peaks in the home in a completely effortless way, subjectively - which is more than enough for more than 99.9999% of the time. This will be an intensity of sound that will do everything that is needed to recreate the emotional impact of a musical event, in a totally satisfying way - no PA systems need apply,...
For those who say this can't happen, I heard this being done at the recent hifi show, using off the shelf gear - if one straightforward system can achieve it, then nothing to stop others getting there as well ...
Last night at the opera. I heard a tenor putting out the big notes. He was probably at one meter producing somewhere near an SPL of 100dB. I was in the balcony somewhere around 40 - 50 feet away. It sounded louder than hell and I was not even close to receiving SPL of that level, even adding in the orchestra.
So, do I want a system that produces a tenor singing full blast in my room? Not on your nelly, babe. I have actually heard one in the flesh in a small room and although a very beautiful voice, it was a very unpleasant experience....
Neither do I want a system producing the SPLs of a big, professional choir at one meter for the same reason.
120 dB in live acoustic music listening just never happens.
Could you say what any of this off the shelf gear was? Just curious, for perspective.Personally, I do believe that it is possible to achieve, say, 120dB peaks in the home in a completely effortless way, subjectively - which is more than enough for more than 99.9999% of the time. This will be an intensity of sound that will do everything that is needed to recreate the emotional impact of a musical event, in a totally satisfying way - no PA systems need apply,
For those who say this can't happen, I heard this being done at the recent hifi show, using off the shelf gear - if one straightforward system can achieve it, then nothing to stop others getting there as well ...
Which is part of the 'problem' ... do people want things to sound 'real' or don't they? Personally, I do, I enjoy the impact, the intensity of live sound, it carries me away to another space - if I don't want that level at a particular moment then there's always a round thingie in front of the system that I can twiddle ...
If the system works that well then you can rock out, as they say, when you're in the mood and the system is totally on top of it - it's not launching an aural assault upon you, it's just reproducing a bunch of muso's having a good time -- which is a very different thing ....
What I have found is that if you make a system comfortable handling the big, intense stuff then it also beautifully recreates the subtle, intimate, tender musical moments ...
If the system works that well then you can rock out, as they say, when you're in the mood and the system is totally on top of it - it's not launching an aural assault upon you, it's just reproducing a bunch of muso's having a good time -- which is a very different thing ...
.What I have found is that if you make a system comfortable handling the big, intense stuff then it also beautifully recreates the subtle, intimate, tender musical moments ...
I play all sorts of wacky stuff at shows. Whatever strikes my fancy, from old Charles Trenet or tango recordings to Nick Cave to the Mormon Tabernacle choir. It's also good to throw on some well known favorites like Cat Stevens or James Taylor, just as a reference. I've often been tempted to switch to more "audiophile" type music, but most people don't want me to switch. I've even had guys call out into the hall "Hey, come in here, they're playing real music!"
Yes, I've mentioned it many times: music server source and DAC unfortunately I don't know, then Bryston 28B-SST 1000W monoblocks, and Dynaudio Confidence C4 speakers. This was able to do a drumkit like the real thing, the sound cracked through your head and hit your body hard, there was zero 'softening' of the sound - yet a few minutes earlier it was doing the classic Ladysmith Black Mambazo track from Graceland, and you could 'see' every member of the group clearly in front of you, sweetly singing the words ...
Which is part of the 'problem' ... do people want things to sound 'real' or don't they? Personally, I do, I enjoy the impact, the intensity of live sound, it carries me away to another space - if I don't want that level at a particular moment then there's always a round thingie in front of the system that I can twiddle ...
If the system works that well then you can rock out, as they say, when you're in the mood and the system is totally on top of it - it's not launching an aural assault upon you, it's just reproducing a bunch of muso's having a good time -- which is a very different thing ...
What I have found is that if you make a system comfortable handling the big, intense stuff then it also beautifully recreates the subtle, intimate, tender musical moments ...
It is good to read the several last posts as they all put together a sort of consensus that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. The human condition varies enough in its requirements
If we limit to the 120dB dynamic range using smaller transducers, we can economically get closer to our current ideal. There are out there some cheapo's that are amazingly good. For fun, I tried a Cambridge A5 amp from the mid 90s as a joke on an audiophile system. It did almost everything it needed to albeit limited to say 110dB with its 60:60 watts class AB. The amp was the first my son bought. Cambridge completely revised the amp except the casing and the sound quality evaporated.
As DIYers we can circumvent all the equipment manufacturers strategies that make the off the shelf stuff for the mass market. If we are lazy then we may just tweak thus stuff to get the sound rather than make it all.
Its great to do both.
I have been finding out just how true this is, at least when mating an upper mid horn to a direct radiator. My son brought his TD15M Onkens / AH425 with Yamaha JA6681 drivers home, and I have been trying to set them up. They sound really harsh with a basic 2nd order 800Hz cross over (inc L-pad attenuator). I tried the 425 horns back with my 50Hz 1/4WL bass horns (same cross over, but no attenuator) and suddenly they blended in fine and made music. No surprise - I listened to them for years like this before I passed them on to him.
The 50hz horns seem to be a natural match. Easy, but why? And why so difficult with the TD15M Onkens? (when they have better BW and flatter response).
Next job I guess is to set up some measurements and a digital cross over / biamp to see if we can dial it in. I have my doubts - kind of understand better now what Lynn's project is all about. And appreciate more what my bass/mid horns do.
martin
Hi, Martin! Hope you're having a nice spring in Perth ... autumn has started here in Colorado, with the aspen and cottonwood trees turning a glorious golden color.
I found the AH425's needed a 4th-order highpass filter to get rid of the grit-n-grain. A 3rd-order highpass only provided acceptable results. The 2nd-order highpass did not sound good at all.
The highpass for the woofer was less tempermental, but 3rd-order sounded noticeably better than 2nd-order. The kind of low-Q 2nd-order (electrical) crossovers I use for Ariel-type loudspeakers do not work with high-efficiency compression-driver/horn setups. They measure OK, sure, but the sound quality is not acceptable, with harshness, grit, grain, and a very 2-dimensional presentation. 4th-order falling between Linkwitz-Riley and Bessel removes the PA-sounding artifacts while greatly improving the spatial impression.
I didn't hear any group-delay artifacts, but I'm not as sensitive to them as some other listeners, and the overall group-delay variation was actually pretty small, since the drivers were time-aligned to a precision of 1/4"/6mm. I was surprised that 1/4" movements were audible, since the measured effect on FR was too small to see, and there no nulls in the frequency response anywhere close to the listening axis.
Subjective effect of time-alignment being slightly off? Very much like a VTA misadjustment in a phono cartridge, with a pretty obvious blurred image and rapid onset of harshness in vocals. The physical location of the subjective "snap-in" and the best-looking impulse response were the same. (The optimum front-to-back location has to be re-adjusted for every crossover change, typically over a range of several inches.)
I was actually kind of surprised that the best-sounding subjective location and the best-looking impulse-response location were the same. I didn't expect that they would be; there are plenty of weird artifacts that can throw off subjective impressions, particularly on an unfamiliar new loudspeaker. But every time, it was easy to "dial-in" the clearest and most natural-sounding location, and sure enough, the impulse response looked cleanest, as well.
The high-efficiency system is much more sensitive to perceived time-domain errors than a typical 87 to 90 dB/meter direct-radiator with a soft-dome or ribbon tweeter. This was an unexpected result.
Looking at your LF horn setup, the time-domain error is very large, in the range of feet or even meters. Maybe what's going on is a preference for either very small or very large time-domain errors, with the intermediate region of 1 meter to 1 cm a forbidden zone.
Another unexpected result was the difference in sound between 15" woofers operating in the flat-response piston region, and running at low levels of IM distortion. The JBL 2226 and the Altec/GPA should have sounded pretty much the same. That's what I expected going into the project. I was wrong.
Both 15" drivers were in a small room with a modest 45 DHT powering them, far below pro sound levels, and both had been broken-in for 48 hours. Both were in the flat-response piston band, confirmed by near-field measurement. But the two drivers sounded completely different. One was flat, toneless, like a 160 kbps MP3, and the other was vivid and colorful, like a Decca LP played with a Ortofon SPU moving-coil.
Which makes me wonder about the TD15M versus the Altec/GPA 416 Alnico. They look similar, but the magnetic drive system is pretty different, and I surmise the subjective difference between the JBL 2226 and the Altec/GPA 416 is the result of differences between magnetic system design.
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Another difference between horn and direct-radiator bass is the effect of the floor bounce, which creates a null that might fall at an unfortunate frequency (close to the crossover). The mouth of a bass horn is usually right next to the floor, which effectively creates a mouth with twice the area, since the floor image merges with the physical mouth above the floor.
This doesn't happen with an Onken or typical enclosures for 15" drivers. The bass driver is above the floor, which creates 2 apparent sources from the listening position ... the physical driver, and the reflected floor image. There are additional reflections from the back and side walls, but these have substantially more delay.
Part of the annoying jiggery-pokerey of moving a conventional stand-mounted 2-way so that it sounds smooth is really adjusting the timing of the 3 reflections (floor, rear wall, side wall) so the overall response is more or less smooth in the 200 Hz to 800 Hz region. Unfortunately, the smoothest-response location is probably not going to be the best-image location, so the result in most rooms is a compromise.
Here's a convenient little floor-bounce calculator. Keep in mind that there's a 3~6 dB peak at twice the null frequency, and another null at three times the null frequency.
In principle, a vertical array of woofers going from floor level to the desired listening height should sidestep the floor-bounce issue, but the commercial systems that take this approach don't sound right to me ... kind of blurred and bass-heavy, nothing like horn bass at all. The commercial systems with a single 15" bass driver close to the floor also sound murky and dark.
Possibly the trouble with a vertical bass array is too much output from the driver closest to the floor ... since the lower driver "sees" the floor reflection, it raises the effective efficiency (gain) of the driver. If a vertical array is used, perhaps it's better if the array has the response shaded so the upper drivers are more efficient ... in the example of this system, the upper driver would be a 515, while the lower driver would be a 416. The 2~3 dB difference in efficiency would just about compensate for the increased gain of the driver closest to the floor.
This doesn't happen with an Onken or typical enclosures for 15" drivers. The bass driver is above the floor, which creates 2 apparent sources from the listening position ... the physical driver, and the reflected floor image. There are additional reflections from the back and side walls, but these have substantially more delay.
Part of the annoying jiggery-pokerey of moving a conventional stand-mounted 2-way so that it sounds smooth is really adjusting the timing of the 3 reflections (floor, rear wall, side wall) so the overall response is more or less smooth in the 200 Hz to 800 Hz region. Unfortunately, the smoothest-response location is probably not going to be the best-image location, so the result in most rooms is a compromise.
Here's a convenient little floor-bounce calculator. Keep in mind that there's a 3~6 dB peak at twice the null frequency, and another null at three times the null frequency.
In principle, a vertical array of woofers going from floor level to the desired listening height should sidestep the floor-bounce issue, but the commercial systems that take this approach don't sound right to me ... kind of blurred and bass-heavy, nothing like horn bass at all. The commercial systems with a single 15" bass driver close to the floor also sound murky and dark.
Possibly the trouble with a vertical bass array is too much output from the driver closest to the floor ... since the lower driver "sees" the floor reflection, it raises the effective efficiency (gain) of the driver. If a vertical array is used, perhaps it's better if the array has the response shaded so the upper drivers are more efficient ... in the example of this system, the upper driver would be a 515, while the lower driver would be a 416. The 2~3 dB difference in efficiency would just about compensate for the increased gain of the driver closest to the floor.
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The best solution to floor/wall bounce response garbage tone killing reflections (if you refuse to except a bass horn and want to listen indoors) is the Karlson coupler. Maybe you could except a hybrid coupler below 300 cycles and highpass to a second 15 above Karlsons sound better then 15's in direct radiator cabinets in bass and upper bass. a lot better, some ways almost as good as a horn.
Karlsons sound better then 15's in direct radiator cabinets in bass and upper bass. a lot better, some ways almost as good as a horn.Well , what Lynn is designing and what Earl Geddes is offering are not horn systems .AfAIK .TAD never offered any horn system ,neither did JBL (here I may be mistaken since they had some BLH horns but not sure if they were offered to consumer market ) Altec did offer some cheated form horn systems with A7 and alike but never offered any as a consumer product. Using horn tweeter do not really qualify..There is no base to critique horn speakers since except Klipshorn and alike from EV , vitavox nothing else really apply and was intended for home use. Rgrds, L
Well if you are looking for unconventional, look here: Welcome to Big E Loudspeakers
All the buzz at the moment in the bass player community, and apparently the operating principle is impossible to explain in terms that don't sound like hype and snake oil.
All the buzz at the moment in the bass player community, and apparently the operating principle is impossible to explain in terms that don't sound like hype and snake oil.
I set it up on LR 24dB slopes using a dbx driverrack and some rugs on the floor and everything fell into place pretty quickly, much to my relief. I then set up Jean Michel's scheme of things with 18dB Butterworth - as per link.
Expanded Soundstaging and 3D-Imaging
This works great, and I can recommend it. Kind of remember going thru all this before, with the bass horns. My wife's ears were co-opted to be main instrument, and she gave it thumbs up. Here we are using equip we bought over 25yrs ago - Kinergetics KCD-20 CD player ((TDA1541 with Hysteresis loop! - remember that one!) and Exposure VIII power amp. Normally powering Spicas from same date, and remaining the living room approved system. Amazing how long lasting good audio equip can be. Enjoyed the day.
It is interesting to compare the Onken / AH425s both with the Spicas and with the fully horn system I have in the studio. It is exciting - my 17yr old daughter brought her music to try out. My wife, into 80's orgasmic long hair ballads actually rates it. Though surprisingly (and rather gratifyingly) she prefers the bass horn set up. The bass horns are more natural to me, maybe she is right in saying it is an older mans system, in its best meaning. The Spicas still sound good to me - they got it right -both relaxing and a surprisingly big sounding speaker given the right amp,(ie tons of power, not too well damped).
Expanded Soundstaging and 3D-Imaging
This works great, and I can recommend it. Kind of remember going thru all this before, with the bass horns. My wife's ears were co-opted to be main instrument, and she gave it thumbs up. Here we are using equip we bought over 25yrs ago - Kinergetics KCD-20 CD player ((TDA1541 with Hysteresis loop! - remember that one!) and Exposure VIII power amp. Normally powering Spicas from same date, and remaining the living room approved system. Amazing how long lasting good audio equip can be. Enjoyed the day.
It is interesting to compare the Onken / AH425s both with the Spicas and with the fully horn system I have in the studio. It is exciting - my 17yr old daughter brought her music to try out. My wife, into 80's orgasmic long hair ballads actually rates it. Though surprisingly (and rather gratifyingly) she prefers the bass horn set up. The bass horns are more natural to me, maybe she is right in saying it is an older mans system, in its best meaning. The Spicas still sound good to me - they got it right -both relaxing and a surprisingly big sounding speaker given the right amp,(ie tons of power, not too well damped).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As I have written before, I suspect that more than the magnetic system per se, the crucial reason for the different sounds of the JBL 2226 vs. the Altec/GPA 416 lies in their different mechanical resistances: respectively, Rms = 4.9 vs. 1.3 N*s/m.
The reasoning being that lower 'friction' results in better low-level detail retrieval (micro-dynamics).
For me, further anecdotal proof of this comes from the still rather vivid and colourful sound of the Fostex FW405N woofer (Rms ~ 2), in spite of the latter being a ferrite-magnet lower efficiency woofer.
Marco
Honestly, I doubt that just setting up the intended crossover slopes in a standard off-the-shelf electronic crossover could actually produce anything like those same target acoustic slopes (which are the only ones that matter).
So any subjectively good sound that you may have got was IMHO little more than the product of pure coincidence - nothing wrong with that if you like the results, but please don't call it a "LR 24" or "JMMLC" crossover, because it most likely is not ;-).
I'm afraid that in order to really get close to the intended target crossover slopes (and time alignment) there is no possible shortcut: you MUST measure the drivers' raw frequency AND phase responses, and then adjust the electrical filters (be they passive or active) to whichever shapes and slopes happen to be needed to produce the target acoustical slopes. Once you've done that, you'll realize that the electrical filters hardly ever end up resembling the target slopes themselves...
Marco
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Perhaps a relatively simple MTM (or "Vertical Twin") solution such as the one adopted by Rey Audio in their studio monitors (RM-6, RM-7, ...) might do the trick?
Marco
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Just an approximation I guess, but there are really only a few knobs to twiddle, even given full knowledge. Without knowledge, if you sit someone in a chair and twiddle the knobs on the fly, is this not the empirical approach? How sensitive is it? – is there a narrow hidden G-spot where audio vistas suddenly open out? Or is this fine tuning? Genuine questions. Is DEQX the answer? Does the basic character of reflex enclosure bass ever change thru fine tuning the cross over?
If bass / mid horns really do sound better and are easier to mate to a mid upper horn (my impression), how do we emulate this within a small footprint? Perhaps 2 x 15” drivers side by side on the floor will do it, or maybe a ¼ WL horn is a practical proposition.