LOL, I was at home. The cat was living with my step-son, the rap artist. The cat lives with us now, and is much happier.
Soongsc. I get where your going and remember you talking about this before. I'll give it another try close and super close. I think the technology is cool, I just haven't yet been able to get results that I felt worthwhile.
Soongsc. I get where your going and remember you talking about this before. I'll give it another try close and super close. I think the technology is cool, I just haven't yet been able to get results that I felt worthwhile.
Pano, I can say that finding all the things to fix throughout a system is not easy. I have spent lots of time on amplifiers, primarily on chip based amps at the moment. I can say that before the amp fix, I can here what I was looking for even though it is not so obvious, and one could choose to ignore it; but when I got the amplifier to a different level of performance without UE involved and put UE back in the loop to listen, the improvement is just much more convincing. I should have remeasured the speakers/drivers with the new amp changes, but I just used the old files to see what would happen. Surprised me a lot.
Audition of Pano's speakers: "More Horns Please"
Three words I'd never thought I'd hear myself say...., at one point I said to Pano during the audition: "More Horns Please."
This past weekend, I audtioned Pano's speakers. I was blown away. I was attracted to the audition by the claims by ra7 of the 3D'ness of Pano speakers and I can attest to that fact. Very 3D. More on that later.
I could have enjoyed much more of the music if I could have stopped laughing outloud as often as I did. ..seemed like every 5 or 10 songs I'd burst into laughter. ..laughter over the 3Dimensionality ..laughter over the realism ..laughter over the overwhelming dynamics ..laughter over delicacy of the sound ..the power ..smoothness ..the detail.
Pano has really nailed his crossover and I could detect no glare and no dropouts anywhere. He also crosses at around 700 or 750 Hz. ..then again at 7Khz. Very similar. The bass drivers are similar and the compression driver for Pano's 10 segment horns is the same GPA/Altec 288 as for the LTO.
The 288 is the size of a bowling ball and three times as heavy. But folks, the 288 is a machine of delicacy and ease, and sounds nothing like you'd expect it to. There is an effortless, an ease, to the sound that I've never heard before. Maybe that is a result of the fact that we only touching on that 125db that it is capable of, thereby experiencing no compression.
Yet, there was no squalk or glare anywhere. ..No quacking ducks. ..no people singing through tubes. None of that.
Of special note is Pano's ability to compare reality to what he wants to hear in a speaker and design crossovers to match reality. I agree with his choices. It just sounds real. This includes allowing for not much after 15 KHz. Yet, there is plenty of air. I didn't miss the highs at all. I plan to play with that if I build (which is where I'd like to head of course).
Deep male voices were much larger than life, forget about as large as life.
The soundstage was well focused and came forward of the speakers and extended well behind the back, sometimes farther than I can imagine (infinity?). ..certainly more than 50 feet. I thought I was doing well at my house with 20 or 30 feet, but this was ludicrous. Width, for sure wider than the speakers, which amazed me because the speakers were only about 45 degrees apart. Very 3D. I used to live on the ocean and a track by the Who with an ocean-sounds intro totally transported me there.
The delicacy of the dynamics and the awesome magnitude really did simulate the sound of a live band, the real sound, and not some trebly reproduction. It transported me to my own live stage performances of years past. (..the laughter would kick in after I realized that it was an illusion. That's some illusion.)
Perhaps the exaggerated 3D nature of Pano's setup is from the fact that he deliberately allows a roll-off of highs. That's a hypothesis on my part. But it makes sense because it brings the 1 - 5 KHz forward, where it can paint the room.
In my case, this will be a living room situation. So they can't be as big as Pano's and can't be too heavy or at least needs to be on wheels as I can't lift much weight. This may limit my project.
Three words I'd never thought I'd hear myself say...., at one point I said to Pano during the audition: "More Horns Please."
This past weekend, I audtioned Pano's speakers. I was blown away. I was attracted to the audition by the claims by ra7 of the 3D'ness of Pano speakers and I can attest to that fact. Very 3D. More on that later.
I could have enjoyed much more of the music if I could have stopped laughing outloud as often as I did. ..seemed like every 5 or 10 songs I'd burst into laughter. ..laughter over the 3Dimensionality ..laughter over the realism ..laughter over the overwhelming dynamics ..laughter over delicacy of the sound ..the power ..smoothness ..the detail.
Pano has really nailed his crossover and I could detect no glare and no dropouts anywhere. He also crosses at around 700 or 750 Hz. ..then again at 7Khz. Very similar. The bass drivers are similar and the compression driver for Pano's 10 segment horns is the same GPA/Altec 288 as for the LTO.
The 288 is the size of a bowling ball and three times as heavy. But folks, the 288 is a machine of delicacy and ease, and sounds nothing like you'd expect it to. There is an effortless, an ease, to the sound that I've never heard before. Maybe that is a result of the fact that we only touching on that 125db that it is capable of, thereby experiencing no compression.
Yet, there was no squalk or glare anywhere. ..No quacking ducks. ..no people singing through tubes. None of that.
Of special note is Pano's ability to compare reality to what he wants to hear in a speaker and design crossovers to match reality. I agree with his choices. It just sounds real. This includes allowing for not much after 15 KHz. Yet, there is plenty of air. I didn't miss the highs at all. I plan to play with that if I build (which is where I'd like to head of course).
Deep male voices were much larger than life, forget about as large as life.
The soundstage was well focused and came forward of the speakers and extended well behind the back, sometimes farther than I can imagine (infinity?). ..certainly more than 50 feet. I thought I was doing well at my house with 20 or 30 feet, but this was ludicrous. Width, for sure wider than the speakers, which amazed me because the speakers were only about 45 degrees apart. Very 3D. I used to live on the ocean and a track by the Who with an ocean-sounds intro totally transported me there.
The delicacy of the dynamics and the awesome magnitude really did simulate the sound of a live band, the real sound, and not some trebly reproduction. It transported me to my own live stage performances of years past. (..the laughter would kick in after I realized that it was an illusion. That's some illusion.)
Perhaps the exaggerated 3D nature of Pano's setup is from the fact that he deliberately allows a roll-off of highs. That's a hypothesis on my part. But it makes sense because it brings the 1 - 5 KHz forward, where it can paint the room.
In my case, this will be a living room situation. So they can't be as big as Pano's and can't be too heavy or at least needs to be on wheels as I can't lift much weight. This may limit my project.
Thanks for the glowing revue, Charlie. (The check's in the mail)
No - thank you for the audition and for letting me have the chair 99% of the time.
The best would just be a 3 way active. If you want to keep the original XO, then it is a bit tricky.
I have done a 2-way MTM using all near field measurements. Since I had the drivers physically aligned, I did not have to do time alignment in UE. Could not disconnect any of the drivers because the XO was series design, so there was still some audible and measured phase problem around the XO frequencies. If your 3-way is of parallel design, I would think that measuring each driver near field with the other drivers either disconnected or replaced with a resistive load would be okay. Then design an XO in UE, but again you have to sum the outputs of UE before sending it through the passive XO.
Multicells are kind of a special case, with a bit of polar-pattern "fingering" that might make pointing them an interesting exercise. Still, as a matter of principle, I'd aim them at a point one to three feet in front of yourself (depending on the size of the room). This goes back to the BBC stereophony articles written by D.E.L. Shorter in the mid-Sixties.
The current misguided fashion for speakers that are nearly aimed parallel seems to come from the reviewers at the glossy magazines. These guys are almost always wrong; do not follow their example, unless bad sound and unstable imaging is your goal.
Pano, I once was thoroughly baffled by the strange image quality produced by one of the horns inadvertently connected out of phase (with the rest of the system). Since the woofers were in-phase, there was no shortage of bass, but everything was super-duper wide. It should have tipped me off that there was nothing in the center at all, a sure sign of an out-of-phase connection somewhere. The crazy ultra-wide stuff - with images coming at you from 90 degrees laterally - came to an end with the polarity restored to correct.
In a way, it was a testament to the speaker that it would reliably generate extremely wide images strictly due to phase information. Plenty of speakers just get diffuse-sounding when connected out of phase; low-diffraction horns are just as precise as normal, but generate extremely odd and unlikely images when connected out of phase. This has good implications for Blumlein and ORTF stereo, as well as quadraphonically-encoded discs - the out-of-phase information on the recording will be correctly located well outside the usual stereo soundstage, as it should be.
In other words, with a Blumlein or ORTF recording, the applause should be extra-wide, and free from hollow or harsh coloration. Applause is an excellent way of time-correlating a system.
The current misguided fashion for speakers that are nearly aimed parallel seems to come from the reviewers at the glossy magazines. These guys are almost always wrong; do not follow their example, unless bad sound and unstable imaging is your goal.
Pano, I once was thoroughly baffled by the strange image quality produced by one of the horns inadvertently connected out of phase (with the rest of the system). Since the woofers were in-phase, there was no shortage of bass, but everything was super-duper wide. It should have tipped me off that there was nothing in the center at all, a sure sign of an out-of-phase connection somewhere. The crazy ultra-wide stuff - with images coming at you from 90 degrees laterally - came to an end with the polarity restored to correct.
In a way, it was a testament to the speaker that it would reliably generate extremely wide images strictly due to phase information. Plenty of speakers just get diffuse-sounding when connected out of phase; low-diffraction horns are just as precise as normal, but generate extremely odd and unlikely images when connected out of phase. This has good implications for Blumlein and ORTF stereo, as well as quadraphonically-encoded discs - the out-of-phase information on the recording will be correctly located well outside the usual stereo soundstage, as it should be.
In other words, with a Blumlein or ORTF recording, the applause should be extra-wide, and free from hollow or harsh coloration. Applause is an excellent way of time-correlating a system.
Part of the reason I was throwing cold water on comments about transistor amps (or chip amps, or Class D) with horns is that I've yet to hear it sound good. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I haven't heard it for myself, and much of my preference for the Altec/GPA 416B and Altec/GPA 288 or Radian 745Neo is based on what I've heard and liked, not Internet buzz or fashion-following.
The folks using active EQ and chip amps (or Class D) are doing good work, but it's just not my kind of sound. I like direct-heated triodes in Class A push-pull, or if cost is a factor, 6L6's in Class A push-pull with a modest amount of feedback. Horns for some reason are utterly ruthless with power amps, while at the same time really kind and gentle with the source recording - antique recordings sound thrilling and real, while the same recording on a low-efficiency speaker with a high-power transistor amp would be unlistenable.
The very different rendition of dynamics and tone color - so vivid and real on the high-efficiency/tube system - and so pallid on the low-efficiency/solid-state system - can completely re-arrange musical priorities. A typical audiophile system with 200~500 watt amps and low-efficiency speakers can leave you enjoying only a handful of ultra-engineered recordings, while a high-efficiency systems with good-quality tube amps (no Audio Research, please) lets you enjoy a far wider gamut of recordings, including 78's and some pretty ropey-sounding LP's and early CD's.
For lack of a better word, audiophiles systems render surfaces, all gloss and reflection, but you don't hear into what you're listening to. High-efficiency combined with good tubes lets hear into things - you can sense textures, and the underlying musical pulse. It's hard to describe, because it's outside the usual audiophile lexicon, but once you hear it, it's unforgettable.
The folks using active EQ and chip amps (or Class D) are doing good work, but it's just not my kind of sound. I like direct-heated triodes in Class A push-pull, or if cost is a factor, 6L6's in Class A push-pull with a modest amount of feedback. Horns for some reason are utterly ruthless with power amps, while at the same time really kind and gentle with the source recording - antique recordings sound thrilling and real, while the same recording on a low-efficiency speaker with a high-power transistor amp would be unlistenable.
The very different rendition of dynamics and tone color - so vivid and real on the high-efficiency/tube system - and so pallid on the low-efficiency/solid-state system - can completely re-arrange musical priorities. A typical audiophile system with 200~500 watt amps and low-efficiency speakers can leave you enjoying only a handful of ultra-engineered recordings, while a high-efficiency systems with good-quality tube amps (no Audio Research, please) lets you enjoy a far wider gamut of recordings, including 78's and some pretty ropey-sounding LP's and early CD's.
For lack of a better word, audiophiles systems render surfaces, all gloss and reflection, but you don't hear into what you're listening to. High-efficiency combined with good tubes lets hear into things - you can sense textures, and the underlying musical pulse. It's hard to describe, because it's outside the usual audiophile lexicon, but once you hear it, it's unforgettable.
Hi Mr. Olson,
I know you listened Gary's Pimm Tabor amp, the version based on pentodes and you arrived at conclusions resembling the ones about your own amp designs. However did you had the chance to listen the solid state version of the Tabor? Also, are you aware of any new developments on this? I believe the website is quite outdated.
Thanks!
Thanks Lynn, I had been vaguely thinking about the flipped polarity thing and how it might be exploited, but only vaguely. What you said makes sense, brings it into sharper focus for me and would be interesting to experiment with.
One of the tracks we played Sunday was a recording by forum member Waveborn. Very natural, great space - but not overblown. I don't know what miking technique he used, but will ask if he remembers.
One of the tracks we played Sunday was a recording by forum member Waveborn. Very natural, great space - but not overblown. I don't know what miking technique he used, but will ask if he remembers.
This track was amazing in that it was just a couple of dynamic mics in a room. It had almost no processing (or no processing probably). On a normal system, this would have been too boring. But on Pano's speakers, you could walk into the room and join the recording session. No boring at all.
Absolutely. This is exactly what I heard through Pano's speakers. He played some recordings from the 50's and 60's (40s?), some of them even processed for vinyl (that crowd) and they sounded thrilling and real.
I had brought with me two CDs with test materials, but I didn't end up needing them because Pano and I have similar musical tastes and with the plethora of recordings he played, I heard what I needed.
Often I had to ask if the material was high res, because it sounded that way. It was 44.1/16 every time I asked.
Do you mean this one?
http://wavebourn.com/music/zane/zane_2_last.mp3
("My Boston is my town in the clouds, my American dream, and a steering wheel of my fortune is firmly in my hands when I am in this clouds...")
Here you go: a pair of my large diaphragm condencers (Chinese MXL-770 with my schematic -- one 2SK170, one PNP, and Tamura transformer), modified TOA console, 31-band stereo EQ, my Pyramid-VII-M tube amp, my line array speakers, Behringer reverberator. EQ was used to equalize flat line arrays so they could sign on 3-4 feet distance from microphones.
Record made using Tascam US-122 connected to Dell notebook, from "Tape" output of the console, on Steinberg Cubase software.
The console uses original 4558 opamps biased by 6K8 resistors for class A, metallized poly capacitors instead of elecrtolytics (weights about 2-3 times more than original), and OPA1612 in summing amps.
Here is the picture:
http://wavebourn.com/forum/download.php?id=513&f=11
Low distortion amplification and speakers blended artificial stereo reverberation with room reverberation.
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