January 8th Photo
Hmm, I got an e-mail today from a reader (not a diyAudio member) saying this long series of posts are (and I quote) a "mastrubative hobby". Perhaps this reaction is understandable, since I initiated this thread on March 27th, with still no loudspeaker in sight, just the occasional drawing. I realize how emotionally frustrating this long wait must be for the readers who want to start building the new loudspeaker.
Here's another graphic, taken on January 8th. It should make clearer than anything I can write in words why the project is taking a while, and you'll see me using a cane at the RMAF this October.
The little "medical adventure" I've had last month was to make sure all that stainless-steel in my leg wasn't causing an allergic reaction - fortunately, after many tests, it wasn't. (Both plates and all the screws would have to be removed if it was the cause.)
Weirdly enough, I've developed an allergy to "fragrances", including the "masking fragrances" put into "unscented" products. Compared to everything else, a small lifestyle change, and mobility continues to improve.
Hmm, I got an e-mail today from a reader (not a diyAudio member) saying this long series of posts are (and I quote) a "mastrubative hobby". Perhaps this reaction is understandable, since I initiated this thread on March 27th, with still no loudspeaker in sight, just the occasional drawing. I realize how emotionally frustrating this long wait must be for the readers who want to start building the new loudspeaker.
Here's another graphic, taken on January 8th. It should make clearer than anything I can write in words why the project is taking a while, and you'll see me using a cane at the RMAF this October.
The little "medical adventure" I've had last month was to make sure all that stainless-steel in my leg wasn't causing an allergic reaction - fortunately, after many tests, it wasn't. (Both plates and all the screws would have to be removed if it was the cause.)
Weirdly enough, I've developed an allergy to "fragrances", including the "masking fragrances" put into "unscented" products. Compared to everything else, a small lifestyle change, and mobility continues to improve.
Attachments
Driver choices
Hi Lynn back in the early days of this project you seemed intrigued with the Tone Tubbies for the WR, MB and Bass drivers, with Alnico. You seem to have dismissed them in favor of the 18sound drivers. Where there particular performance issues that cuased this/
I understand that ideally a LF driver for an OB speaker would have a Qts between .5 and 1 i am guessing that the Qts of the 18 sound drivers is in the .25 to.35 area. Any concerns there?
Hi Lynn back in the early days of this project you seemed intrigued with the Tone Tubbies for the WR, MB and Bass drivers, with Alnico. You seem to have dismissed them in favor of the 18sound drivers. Where there particular performance issues that cuased this/
I understand that ideally a LF driver for an OB speaker would have a Qts between .5 and 1 i am guessing that the Qts of the 18 sound drivers is in the .25 to.35 area. Any concerns there?
Re: January 8th Photo
I also understand the frustration of long rehab periods after injury. I spent well over a year recoving from 4 fractured vertebrae. It'll soon be just a memory and story.
I can understand the frustration of those who'll want to build what you do, or use that as a reference for some further experimentation of their own. But personally I feel there is such a worthwhile amount of info in this thread on a number of subjects that your actual build is secondary for me at the moment. There have been many posts here that have given me pause and caused me to investigate some other ideas for my own dissimilar projects and I'm very grateful for that.Lynn Olson said:
I also understand the frustration of long rehab periods after injury. I spent well over a year recoving from 4 fractured vertebrae. It'll soon be just a memory and story.
The doc gave me printouts, I scanned them in Photoshop, and you see them here in all their glory. No printouts of anything later than Jan. 8th. For the first two months, basically no change from what you see here, which was more than a little frightening, and then some improvements started to show, just before I started this thread with Bud Purvine's encouragement. (Nothing like being disabled to knock you off-center psychologically.) X-rays every four to six weeks until the final go-ahead to start walking again some time in July, if I recall right.
My last X-ray was 10 days ago, and you could still see areas of stress and strain along with all the hardware. Functionally, though, the surgeon said it looked great, no sign of implant failure at all, and the regrown bones looked strong. I can walk on both legs, and only need the cane when I get tired or need to go up or down stairs. Carrying things is still a little awkward, though, and I still need to elevate the left leg at intervals.
Normally the 316L stainless-steel implants are left in place unless an allergic reaction develops. This is quite rare, less than 1%, and the surgeon had never seen it in his own practice - and he's probably done thousands of surgeries (this is Colorado, after all, so they get lots of practice). Still, the reaction came on fast and hard, and the source had to be tracked down, which appeared after two rounds of skin testing. That's why my posts over the last six weeks occasionally sounded exasperated and cranky - the prospect of more surgery was not a cheerful one, and the allergy made sleep very difficult.
The big turnaround was just this last Monday, when the fragrance allergy was confirmed, and treatment started to take effect. Last Monday I had my first good night of sleep in six weeks, and have continued to improve since then. Sleep cycle has still been disturbed, though, thus the weird posting hours and odd tone of some of the postings.
My last X-ray was 10 days ago, and you could still see areas of stress and strain along with all the hardware. Functionally, though, the surgeon said it looked great, no sign of implant failure at all, and the regrown bones looked strong. I can walk on both legs, and only need the cane when I get tired or need to go up or down stairs. Carrying things is still a little awkward, though, and I still need to elevate the left leg at intervals.
Normally the 316L stainless-steel implants are left in place unless an allergic reaction develops. This is quite rare, less than 1%, and the surgeon had never seen it in his own practice - and he's probably done thousands of surgeries (this is Colorado, after all, so they get lots of practice). Still, the reaction came on fast and hard, and the source had to be tracked down, which appeared after two rounds of skin testing. That's why my posts over the last six weeks occasionally sounded exasperated and cranky - the prospect of more surgery was not a cheerful one, and the allergy made sleep very difficult.
The big turnaround was just this last Monday, when the fragrance allergy was confirmed, and treatment started to take effect. Last Monday I had my first good night of sleep in six weeks, and have continued to improve since then. Sleep cycle has still been disturbed, though, thus the weird posting hours and odd tone of some of the postings.
I have seem many claims of aspects that are not audible which I have almost always been able to identify such audibility. My conclusion is that if they had presented anough data on speaker driver, XO design, and XO components, I could point out exactly what is masking the audibility of such tests aspects that are claimed to be "not audible".gedlee said:
direct / indirect radiating sound
hello Lynn
i read this thread up to page 55, and i recommend people from AA board to read it, as many aspects of hornspeakers are mentioned as well. I just hope the one that send you the email, is not aloud to post here.
I have never listened to open baffles. it is controversial. some like
them , others don't. something your OB 3, 4 ways idea does not solve, is what i read today at another thread of this forum :
Personally, I like coaxes. They have the potential to sound very coherent, due to the almost point source radiation characteristic. They energise the listening room differently than most speakers because, generally, they have a conical (90 degree) dispersion characteristic, that can remain defined over the entire frequency range, narrowing a bit at the top end. Normal cone/dome systems change their patterns quite a lot over their range, and so gives a wildly varying reflected energy that just sounds wrong to me.
I agree with that.
fullrange drivers and coaxes however lack of the tremendous dinamics, 3, 4 way horn systems are able to deliver. also, fullrangers do not have enough indirect radiated sound, as omnidirectional speakers, to give more "openness" and spacial sound.
I've heard mbl's at ces, and they radiate on the other hand too much energy indirectly, what does not sound right as well.
i like Magnetar's full horn system. as all drivers, including the bass, use a small backchamber, so no boxy sound.
to adress the problem of directivity : why not built in a
fullrange ore coax driver , similar to duevel, upward firing, and radiating 360 degrees into the room, with a L-pad, so the indirect radiated sound can be padded down until the right relation direct sound / indirect sound is reached , similar as Wilson ore others do with a tweeters, backward firing ?
i draw a view month ago a speaker with this idea , i named it AudioVoice Bariton :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page3/
today i would change the design, but the draw gives a idea what i meen :
rds Angelo
hello Lynn
i read this thread up to page 55, and i recommend people from AA board to read it, as many aspects of hornspeakers are mentioned as well. I just hope the one that send you the email, is not aloud to post here.
I have never listened to open baffles. it is controversial. some like
them , others don't. something your OB 3, 4 ways idea does not solve, is what i read today at another thread of this forum :
Personally, I like coaxes. They have the potential to sound very coherent, due to the almost point source radiation characteristic. They energise the listening room differently than most speakers because, generally, they have a conical (90 degree) dispersion characteristic, that can remain defined over the entire frequency range, narrowing a bit at the top end. Normal cone/dome systems change their patterns quite a lot over their range, and so gives a wildly varying reflected energy that just sounds wrong to me.
I agree with that.
fullrange drivers and coaxes however lack of the tremendous dinamics, 3, 4 way horn systems are able to deliver. also, fullrangers do not have enough indirect radiated sound, as omnidirectional speakers, to give more "openness" and spacial sound.
I've heard mbl's at ces, and they radiate on the other hand too much energy indirectly, what does not sound right as well.
i like Magnetar's full horn system. as all drivers, including the bass, use a small backchamber, so no boxy sound.
to adress the problem of directivity : why not built in a
fullrange ore coax driver , similar to duevel, upward firing, and radiating 360 degrees into the room, with a L-pad, so the indirect radiated sound can be padded down until the right relation direct sound / indirect sound is reached , similar as Wilson ore others do with a tweeters, backward firing ?
i draw a view month ago a speaker with this idea , i named it AudioVoice Bariton :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page3/
today i would change the design, but the draw gives a idea what i meen :
rds Angelo
gedlee said:
To my knowledge, listening fatigue is rarely if ever quantified during formal subjective testing, and only JND's (just noticeable differences) are sought.
This is my main hesitation towards disregarding specialized test signals, the suspicion that they potentially point towards issues of listening fatigue, even if music signals showed no JND issues in the subjective test. Fatigue largely arises from our consciousness suppressing cognitive data that doesn't "fit", and I suspect even subliminally. A conservative if unproven approach.
GD was my first specialized interest in audio so many years ago, developing specialized GD flat xover topologies etc. I’m certainly with you; there were such bigger fish to fry at the time (still are), I just didn’t know it!
Lynn Olson said:
Pretty impressive hardware, Lynn! Shall we call you "Steve Austin'?
Funny thing about x-rays, I've scanned a few here at work. They were on film, but the originals were all electronic. Film seems to be on the way out for x-rays, just like for conventional photography. But most Docs still print them out on film for viewing.
A Request
Well, the "one who is not allowed to post here" was kind enough to send me a personal copy of his posting made in the AA High-Efficiency forum before it was deleted by the AA H-E moderators. That's where the "mastrubative hobby" comment came from. There were many more words like that in the one-paragraph posting.
About a year ago, I posted a quick review of Dr. Geddes' book on John Atwood's Clarisonus blog, and it caused a huge blow-up on the AA H-E forum. I found out very quickly that a minority of horn enthusiasts take any criticism of horns as a direct personal attack, and respond accordingly.
With some difficulty, I prevailed on John Atwood to remove the entire book review from the Clarisonus blog. He left his section, but my portion was removed. It wasn't worth the hassle and name-calling, and I have no intention of ever posting in the AA H-E forum, or on the site of the "one who is not allowed to post here".
I found the whole experience so unpleasant that it took a fair amount of persuasion by Bud Purvine to get me to post here on diyAudio. The much stricter moderation here on diyAudio, along with a refreshing international flavor, is what made the difference.
This is hard to say, Angelo, but please don't make any more posts about me on the AA H-E forum or the site of the "one who is not allowed to post here". I am not welcome in either forum, and I get a blizzard of hostile personal e-mails whenever my name is mentioned. It takes all of my limited diplomatic skills to answer any of these e-mails - a hassle and a pointless energy drain I don't need right now.
I'm sure you meant well, but I've found out the hard way that some folks in audio are friendlier than others. That's why I post here, and not other places.
angeloitacare said:
Well, the "one who is not allowed to post here" was kind enough to send me a personal copy of his posting made in the AA High-Efficiency forum before it was deleted by the AA H-E moderators. That's where the "mastrubative hobby" comment came from. There were many more words like that in the one-paragraph posting.
About a year ago, I posted a quick review of Dr. Geddes' book on John Atwood's Clarisonus blog, and it caused a huge blow-up on the AA H-E forum. I found out very quickly that a minority of horn enthusiasts take any criticism of horns as a direct personal attack, and respond accordingly.
With some difficulty, I prevailed on John Atwood to remove the entire book review from the Clarisonus blog. He left his section, but my portion was removed. It wasn't worth the hassle and name-calling, and I have no intention of ever posting in the AA H-E forum, or on the site of the "one who is not allowed to post here".
I found the whole experience so unpleasant that it took a fair amount of persuasion by Bud Purvine to get me to post here on diyAudio. The much stricter moderation here on diyAudio, along with a refreshing international flavor, is what made the difference.
This is hard to say, Angelo, but please don't make any more posts about me on the AA H-E forum or the site of the "one who is not allowed to post here". I am not welcome in either forum, and I get a blizzard of hostile personal e-mails whenever my name is mentioned. It takes all of my limited diplomatic skills to answer any of these e-mails - a hassle and a pointless energy drain I don't need right now.
I'm sure you meant well, but I've found out the hard way that some folks in audio are friendlier than others. That's why I post here, and not other places.
i did'nt know this background
hello Lynn
well, i have seen the post before it was remooved at AA. You know of what level it was, ( and he writes ) so you understand my concern. I didn't know as well about what happened with you at AA forum. I am more open minded. I grow up assisting my father building speakers and selling them on the local market, in switzerland. He were using mainly Audax woofers with alnico magnet, Audax Medomex midrange, and Electro Voice T350. This back in the seventies. My interest is similar to yours, however, as i started to get involved more intensive with this hobby one year and something ago, i have still very limited knowledge compared to yours, so reading your posts here, and from others, i learn a lot. I like horns , as up to now they give me the most pleasant experience , listening to playback music, but i am well aware of the limitations , too, and if i would find non horn speakers, that do it better for me, why not ?! i would apprechiate if you would give some comments on my ideas.
rds Angelo
hello Lynn
well, i have seen the post before it was remooved at AA. You know of what level it was, ( and he writes ) so you understand my concern. I didn't know as well about what happened with you at AA forum. I am more open minded. I grow up assisting my father building speakers and selling them on the local market, in switzerland. He were using mainly Audax woofers with alnico magnet, Audax Medomex midrange, and Electro Voice T350. This back in the seventies. My interest is similar to yours, however, as i started to get involved more intensive with this hobby one year and something ago, i have still very limited knowledge compared to yours, so reading your posts here, and from others, i learn a lot. I like horns , as up to now they give me the most pleasant experience , listening to playback music, but i am well aware of the limitations , too, and if i would find non horn speakers, that do it better for me, why not ?! i would apprechiate if you would give some comments on my ideas.
rds Angelo
Well, as many people have thoughtfully informed me, I don't know a whole lot about horns. If we are to take the experts at their word, they're over in the AA H-E forum and the "other site", not wasting their time with this thread.
From my non-horn perspective, traditional horns have issues in the time domain. Of the non-traditional horns, Dr. Geddes' foam-filled waveguide has pretty impressive time domain measurements. There were hints of a group buy the last time I looked over in the Geddes thread.
I haven't seen time measurements of LeCleac'h horns, but what I've heard sounded very good. But remember, I don't know anything about horns and have "primitive" tastes, so please don't take what I say seriously.
This whole horn thing has so many religious overtones that I'm bound to offend somebody no matter what I say. So I'll keep it really simple: do some travelling and audition famous horn systems. There are all kinds of competing horn-design philosophies and the proponents of each are confident they have the Keys To The Kingdom. Do not expect kind words for other design approaches - the voice of experience speaking here.
Set aside the words, marketing PR, and in-group thinking and listen for yourself with your favorite music - not the stuff they want to show off. Do not take any Internet or magazine recommendations seriously, no matter how smoothly written and persuasive it appears.
Since the design approaches are sharply drawn, pick the methodology that agrees with your tastes. If you branch off on your own, expect no support from the existing methodologies.
From my non-horn perspective, traditional horns have issues in the time domain. Of the non-traditional horns, Dr. Geddes' foam-filled waveguide has pretty impressive time domain measurements. There were hints of a group buy the last time I looked over in the Geddes thread.
I haven't seen time measurements of LeCleac'h horns, but what I've heard sounded very good. But remember, I don't know anything about horns and have "primitive" tastes, so please don't take what I say seriously.
This whole horn thing has so many religious overtones that I'm bound to offend somebody no matter what I say. So I'll keep it really simple: do some travelling and audition famous horn systems. There are all kinds of competing horn-design philosophies and the proponents of each are confident they have the Keys To The Kingdom. Do not expect kind words for other design approaches - the voice of experience speaking here.
Set aside the words, marketing PR, and in-group thinking and listen for yourself with your favorite music - not the stuff they want to show off. Do not take any Internet or magazine recommendations seriously, no matter how smoothly written and persuasive it appears.
Since the design approaches are sharply drawn, pick the methodology that agrees with your tastes. If you branch off on your own, expect no support from the existing methodologies.
More of this midsummer medical weirdness. I've had six weeks of severely disrupted sleep cycles as a result of the severe skin irritation on my back, which made it difficult to tolerate even moderate heat, sit back in a chair, ride in a car, or sleep in a bed.
I spent the days with no shirt on and an air-conditioner vent blowing on me, and rarely went out of the house. At its worst about two weeks in, the thermo-regulation was so disordered I'd be shivering from cold on the front of my body and feeling hot and sunburned on the back. Really bizarre and freaky.
Monday was the first night where I slept the night through, but the wake/sleep cycle is still weird. Thermoregulation is very slowly returning to normal, but I'm staying inside except on the cooler days. Day by day, better and better.
I am very much looking forward to something approaching a normal lifestyle - I'll be able to get out of the house, have fun with my new Pentax K10D and its lens collection, go visit Estes Park in the beautiful Colorado fall weather, and oh yes, maybe do a little speaker building. I'll be able to shake my cane at the RMAF'ers I want to razz, as well.
I spent the days with no shirt on and an air-conditioner vent blowing on me, and rarely went out of the house. At its worst about two weeks in, the thermo-regulation was so disordered I'd be shivering from cold on the front of my body and feeling hot and sunburned on the back. Really bizarre and freaky.
Monday was the first night where I slept the night through, but the wake/sleep cycle is still weird. Thermoregulation is very slowly returning to normal, but I'm staying inside except on the cooler days. Day by day, better and better.
I am very much looking forward to something approaching a normal lifestyle - I'll be able to get out of the house, have fun with my new Pentax K10D and its lens collection, go visit Estes Park in the beautiful Colorado fall weather, and oh yes, maybe do a little speaker building. I'll be able to shake my cane at the RMAF'ers I want to razz, as well.
This probably sounds really wussy, but truthfully, I'm more drawn to cones-n-ribbons because it's a technology I'm more comfortable with. Horns and waveguides are alien territory, things I don't know very well, and the old-school colorations aren't to my tastes at all.
I was never an Altec or JBL fan, despite living for six years in Los Angeles, birthplace and home of ERPI, Altec, and JBL. I heard plenty of 'em there, even sold a bunch in my first job, but I never liked 'em, despite the huge - and I mean huge - following they have in LA.
But if horns are your thing, be my guest!!! The HF portion of what I've shown is perfectly adaptable to a horn or waveguide, and for that matter, the 8" driver can be discarded in favor of a 500 Hz horn, so you get the horn sound in the crucial voice range. But as for designing the horn itself - uh well, you're on your own.
I was never an Altec or JBL fan, despite living for six years in Los Angeles, birthplace and home of ERPI, Altec, and JBL. I heard plenty of 'em there, even sold a bunch in my first job, but I never liked 'em, despite the huge - and I mean huge - following they have in LA.
But if horns are your thing, be my guest!!! The HF portion of what I've shown is perfectly adaptable to a horn or waveguide, and for that matter, the 8" driver can be discarded in favor of a 500 Hz horn, so you get the horn sound in the crucial voice range. But as for designing the horn itself - uh well, you're on your own.