I think I should seriously consider that Frank .
Just to point out what my reply was all about . Most arms and cartridges are capable of doing a good job . The matching is usually the magic quality we are buying . If we bought car tyres this way it would be chaos .
Getting the arm mass correct is 50 % of what we can do . The other mysterious bit is preamp gain . One theory I have about this is op amps are optimum at a gain of 1 or >10 , the ones stable at unity gain that is . Between 1 and 10 might be importantly different . If the 1st stage is passive then we have fighting chance of getting something good . You can spend a week selecting resistors until you have it right . It might come down to gain of 4.5 perfect , gain of 3 washed out . As said before 16 for the 3180/318 uS at 1 kHz . As this is DIY Audio building a preamp seems part of getting the best sound . Don't be frightened of using too much gain . That often works . For example an overall gain of 200 with an input of 10 mV should be OK . If the design is good it will happy . if my rule of thumb is correct 10 then 16 would work ( 160 ) . 16 is what seems to work with active stages . Not too much , not too little . I think on balance 3180/318 active is a good choice . The simplicity makes for a short signal path . The active stage having current to drive itself and the amplifier following .
I used to visit peoples houses and often found a draw full of pick up cartridges . Typically 80% of them were dream devices . They somehow had never found the right one !
VTA and weight adjustment are important things . Do the best you can to get it right .
For what it is worth Grado is an excellent design . I suspect it needs special care to get it to work ( not sure I know what , a little damping of some mysterious type ) . The way the magnetic circuit works looks to be as near moving coil as we will get in a moving magnet . I am a bit dubious about the profit margins stated . Grado was about 100 % mark up if buying vast quantities . Ortofon slightly less . There would be special offers naturally . Discounting was common so prices always were 20% off . A sad fact is the Grado and the Dual CS505 were a touted combination . It didn't work very well to my ears , the arm would noticeably jitter . The supplied Audio Technica that was automatically thrown away suited better .
One of the saddest moments for me was a customer who's son made pick up cartridges in India . I fitted one to his Rega Planar 3 . It looked like a Shure and sounded rather nice . The father quickly changed it for " something better " . On my recommendation a Goldring 1042 which was better . He was so dismissive of his own son , I would have happily used it myself . Perhaps pure snobbery on his part ? The upgrade was mostly how it read the grooves which reduced surface noise . A very nice diamond . I would imagine the 1042 a very good choice . I think they still make them ?
Reading the link below is interesting . SME say 10 to 12 Hz is ideal resonance ( Fo = 1 / 2Pi root/ { MC } ) . I think I would say 8 to 10 Hz myself . This is if the set up allows ( suspension spring frequency etc ) . Testing using something like the Ortofon test disk is the only way to know . The facts and figures often don't agree with the Ortofon disc . The weird bit is the technically biased guys tend to trust the figures rather than the easy to use Ortofon test !! I think I noticed the better sound was when the vertical wobble at resonance wasn't at the same frequency when testing the horizontal ( 2 Hz apart ) .
SME - Series V
Just to point out what my reply was all about . Most arms and cartridges are capable of doing a good job . The matching is usually the magic quality we are buying . If we bought car tyres this way it would be chaos .
Getting the arm mass correct is 50 % of what we can do . The other mysterious bit is preamp gain . One theory I have about this is op amps are optimum at a gain of 1 or >10 , the ones stable at unity gain that is . Between 1 and 10 might be importantly different . If the 1st stage is passive then we have fighting chance of getting something good . You can spend a week selecting resistors until you have it right . It might come down to gain of 4.5 perfect , gain of 3 washed out . As said before 16 for the 3180/318 uS at 1 kHz . As this is DIY Audio building a preamp seems part of getting the best sound . Don't be frightened of using too much gain . That often works . For example an overall gain of 200 with an input of 10 mV should be OK . If the design is good it will happy . if my rule of thumb is correct 10 then 16 would work ( 160 ) . 16 is what seems to work with active stages . Not too much , not too little . I think on balance 3180/318 active is a good choice . The simplicity makes for a short signal path . The active stage having current to drive itself and the amplifier following .
I used to visit peoples houses and often found a draw full of pick up cartridges . Typically 80% of them were dream devices . They somehow had never found the right one !
VTA and weight adjustment are important things . Do the best you can to get it right .
For what it is worth Grado is an excellent design . I suspect it needs special care to get it to work ( not sure I know what , a little damping of some mysterious type ) . The way the magnetic circuit works looks to be as near moving coil as we will get in a moving magnet . I am a bit dubious about the profit margins stated . Grado was about 100 % mark up if buying vast quantities . Ortofon slightly less . There would be special offers naturally . Discounting was common so prices always were 20% off . A sad fact is the Grado and the Dual CS505 were a touted combination . It didn't work very well to my ears , the arm would noticeably jitter . The supplied Audio Technica that was automatically thrown away suited better .
One of the saddest moments for me was a customer who's son made pick up cartridges in India . I fitted one to his Rega Planar 3 . It looked like a Shure and sounded rather nice . The father quickly changed it for " something better " . On my recommendation a Goldring 1042 which was better . He was so dismissive of his own son , I would have happily used it myself . Perhaps pure snobbery on his part ? The upgrade was mostly how it read the grooves which reduced surface noise . A very nice diamond . I would imagine the 1042 a very good choice . I think they still make them ?
Reading the link below is interesting . SME say 10 to 12 Hz is ideal resonance ( Fo = 1 / 2Pi root/ { MC } ) . I think I would say 8 to 10 Hz myself . This is if the set up allows ( suspension spring frequency etc ) . Testing using something like the Ortofon test disk is the only way to know . The facts and figures often don't agree with the Ortofon disc . The weird bit is the technically biased guys tend to trust the figures rather than the easy to use Ortofon test !! I think I noticed the better sound was when the vertical wobble at resonance wasn't at the same frequency when testing the horizontal ( 2 Hz apart ) .
SME - Series V
Thanks Wayne, I just found a 35yr. old Signature 8 in my stash of LP stuff this would be a great opportunity to compare the Denon to Grado sound. It seems to take the standard stylus replacements.
I trust your opinion BTW even with the occasional disagreement
. You aren't batman are you?
I must be the world's luckiest cartridge and turntable owner. I'm using a Shure M97 Era IV I bought in 1979. It probably has high 4 digit LP plays on the original stylus. Sounds great, pretty much exactly like the CD's except for pops and dust where I have the CD and LP version of the same album. I'm using a BIC 940 record changer at 1.5 g and either a dynakit PAS2 tube preamp or a heavily modified op amp mixer which is almost as good at 1/100 of the tube and e-cap replacement cost of the PAS2. The op amp mixer has 50x gain one stage and now has ST33078 input amps. The op amps heat the room less, but have a tiny bit of hum I can't kill.
I had a 1975? Grado FTE cartridge on a 1961 AR turntable, which was highly touted by Audio or Stereo Review. It lasted a year and a half before the diamond shattered leaving a sharp chisel at the end. The Grado sounded okay but my speakers in those days weren't ideal.
The new needle in the 1961 Audio Technica cartridge that came in the AR turntable sounded tinny and would jump out of the grooves on ATCO pressings, even on 2 g.
If I run the M97EraIV at 1 g it sounds funny and doesn't track well. 1.5 g is the ticket.
I also had to straighten the mount on the arm of the $75 BIC940, by inserting washers.
I morne the day the belt breaks on the BIC940 changer; I'll probably have to spend 100 times as much to get the same performance if the postings on this thread mean anything. Sometimes cheap plastic extrusions are just the ticket for good sound. The changer looks like ****, all plastic "walnut" and dull plastic everywhere else. BIC was bankrupt in two years, I believe. The 940 tracked so much better than the AR turntable, I sold off the latter.
My tracking response records were a warped Simon & Garfunkle LP for vertical compliance, and an ATCO 45 of Tommy Boyce & Bobby Hart (I Wonder what she is doing?) that would make the AR turntable and AT cartridge jump right out of the groove.
Full disclosure, my hearing has stopped at 14 khz since summer camp 1969 where I fired the 8" howitzer. one reason Peavey SP2's sound great to me without a dome tweeter to supplement the response up from 14500 to 20000. I doubt if that upper hearing limit is unusual, though.
I had a 1975? Grado FTE cartridge on a 1961 AR turntable, which was highly touted by Audio or Stereo Review. It lasted a year and a half before the diamond shattered leaving a sharp chisel at the end. The Grado sounded okay but my speakers in those days weren't ideal.
The new needle in the 1961 Audio Technica cartridge that came in the AR turntable sounded tinny and would jump out of the grooves on ATCO pressings, even on 2 g.
If I run the M97EraIV at 1 g it sounds funny and doesn't track well. 1.5 g is the ticket.
I also had to straighten the mount on the arm of the $75 BIC940, by inserting washers.
I morne the day the belt breaks on the BIC940 changer; I'll probably have to spend 100 times as much to get the same performance if the postings on this thread mean anything. Sometimes cheap plastic extrusions are just the ticket for good sound. The changer looks like ****, all plastic "walnut" and dull plastic everywhere else. BIC was bankrupt in two years, I believe. The 940 tracked so much better than the AR turntable, I sold off the latter.
My tracking response records were a warped Simon & Garfunkle LP for vertical compliance, and an ATCO 45 of Tommy Boyce & Bobby Hart (I Wonder what she is doing?) that would make the AR turntable and AT cartridge jump right out of the groove.
Full disclosure, my hearing has stopped at 14 khz since summer camp 1969 where I fired the 8" howitzer. one reason Peavey SP2's sound great to me without a dome tweeter to supplement the response up from 14500 to 20000. I doubt if that upper hearing limit is unusual, though.
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Hi, Having used both the Grado Prestige Gold and the Reference Platinum, I would say IMO a good replacement that does not break the bank if you can use a LOMC is the AT F-7. About $250 direct from Japan. For cheap the Denon DL110 is hard to beat as a HOMC. If you can swing the cash a Dynavector 10X5 is a really nice HOMC. An Ortofon OM anything with a LPgear OM30 stylus is a good one as well. (the factory OM30 stylus is quite a bit more costly and IMO not that much better).
Stanton
I went through dozens of cartridges, loved the sound of the better moving coils w a good pre-pre and SoTA turntable w vacuum platter, air bearing tangential blah-blah-blah. Later came to realize most (and I do mean nearly all except two or three) of my LP's did not merit such great and expensive playback.
So I sold it all and bought a Rega, and played w many moving magnet carts, Grado, Audio Technica, Shure, etc. they all sucked except for the Stanton 681 and 881 series.
So there's my two cents. With inflation it's now worth a dollar.
I went through dozens of cartridges, loved the sound of the better moving coils w a good pre-pre and SoTA turntable w vacuum platter, air bearing tangential blah-blah-blah. Later came to realize most (and I do mean nearly all except two or three) of my LP's did not merit such great and expensive playback.
So I sold it all and bought a Rega, and played w many moving magnet carts, Grado, Audio Technica, Shure, etc. they all sucked except for the Stanton 681 and 881 series.
So there's my two cents. With inflation it's now worth a dollar.
I've found that I did retain some of my old cartridges, Shures, Yess the better ones and even older Grados .
Not gonna pay $380 for a JICO retip for a shure.
Under any circumstance.
Annoyingly, the earlier Grados are seemingly Better Made ..NO loose pins or at least Much better retained ones.
Gotta love moderne times and the unquenchable thirst to cut costs.
Happy enough with the grado sound (sure it could be a bit better... but then that viewpoint Always has traction ..the Cornerstone of our culture)
Not being able to make the silly cart function consistently, even overnight, is what Really annoys.
Denon 110 is currently at ~97$ at Comet.. will watch it, for any fabled/further price fluctuations.. for about a week
My few records are Pristine.. I'm their original owner, and was careful.
PS: 14khz Erm that's fairly good for a healthy 60 year old without Any hearing trauma history. Possibly a retest might reveal 10 or 11 khz?
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I got ortofon 2m recently for my 3rd table, just to play less than perfect records
Highly recommended
Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge
Highly recommended
Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge
You might find this link useful . I know many of these from the past . How prices have changed . Not so much Grado . I have always suspected Grado is an engineering problem not yet solved . The concept is far too good to sound as ordinary as they do . In the old days the stylus was offset . The advice to turn the bias device off if I remember ( yikes ) . A friend knew Ed Vilchur and Joe Grado , doubtless Grado was based on the AR turntable and it's arm .
The problem I see is an exact preamp to match . Understanding of the damping the cartridge might need . Arm compatibility . Ideal arm type and mass . My hunch is a Rega arm and Grado will not be a match made in heaven . A unipivot might be fine .
Hi Fi Cartridges - vast selection with guidance and advice on how to choose
The problem I see is an exact preamp to match . Understanding of the damping the cartridge might need . Arm compatibility . Ideal arm type and mass . My hunch is a Rega arm and Grado will not be a match made in heaven . A unipivot might be fine .
Hi Fi Cartridges - vast selection with guidance and advice on how to choose
Nigel, i would have to say you are really wrong about Grado's, They are tricky to get setup right , done correctly you will be amazed at the size and power pulled out of recordings, the Denon and AT are wispy by comparison , but track much better on avg quality vinyl , so much lower surface noise .
If you know how to work with Grado's , have the patience to arm fiddle ( if you have an arm that allow) and good quality vinyl you will find them difficult to beat ....
If you know how to work with Grado's , have the patience to arm fiddle ( if you have an arm that allow) and good quality vinyl you will find them difficult to beat ....
I 100 % agree with that .I suspect Grado pick ups are truly exceptional , even the cheapest . What is not truly exceptional is our understanding of them . It is possible they need different loading and a preamp of wider than usual bandwidth . VTA , bias and weight also .
My friend who knew Joe Grado was Sid Smith designer of Marantz in the days when Playboy magazine featured them as the ultimate hi fi . The full story of how I knew Playboy aged 14 is rather boring . Sid was a dedicated fan of Grado . The wood body versions are rather wonderful . Sid used a Thorens TD 160 if I remember and perhaps a SME . Speakers Quad ESL 63 . CD player a Sony portable ( batteries said to be a great virtue ) . Amps Model 9 in triode . Nearly the best hi fi I ever heard . No covers on the 63's . I didn't like the Sony . Sid didn't like CD , thought them all much of a muchness . Me too .
I often wonder about the sound of a Grado with fewer coil turns . It could have about 700 uV output from a coil resistance similar to MC . I dare say it would be exceptional . We may have mistaken the sound of MC pick ups when it was coil simplicity really . I imagine a gain 1000 at 100R would be the sort of arrangement required . The wire could be thicker than MC as it is not moving . Same bobbin size , thicker wire , less turns , less resistance , less hiss than MC ( 2 dB ? ) . I was told before such things are speculation . That's right , I am speculating .
Sid was trained in the military as an engineer if I remember correctly . A musician . His family helped form the foundations of the USA on the Union side . An incredibly honest man . My visit to Ed Vilchur and Joe Grado never happened as Sid died . I was told not to say anything unscientific to Ed .If I did I would be shown the door . Ironically Ed when he was alive lived in a town of exactly the same name as mine where I live . If I had met I would have liked to have asked about the AR test record ( and bombers ) . That record more an experience in music that anything useful . Then again music is not such a bad thing .
My friend who knew Joe Grado was Sid Smith designer of Marantz in the days when Playboy magazine featured them as the ultimate hi fi . The full story of how I knew Playboy aged 14 is rather boring . Sid was a dedicated fan of Grado . The wood body versions are rather wonderful . Sid used a Thorens TD 160 if I remember and perhaps a SME . Speakers Quad ESL 63 . CD player a Sony portable ( batteries said to be a great virtue ) . Amps Model 9 in triode . Nearly the best hi fi I ever heard . No covers on the 63's . I didn't like the Sony . Sid didn't like CD , thought them all much of a muchness . Me too .
I often wonder about the sound of a Grado with fewer coil turns . It could have about 700 uV output from a coil resistance similar to MC . I dare say it would be exceptional . We may have mistaken the sound of MC pick ups when it was coil simplicity really . I imagine a gain 1000 at 100R would be the sort of arrangement required . The wire could be thicker than MC as it is not moving . Same bobbin size , thicker wire , less turns , less resistance , less hiss than MC ( 2 dB ? ) . I was told before such things are speculation . That's right , I am speculating .
Sid was trained in the military as an engineer if I remember correctly . A musician . His family helped form the foundations of the USA on the Union side . An incredibly honest man . My visit to Ed Vilchur and Joe Grado never happened as Sid died . I was told not to say anything unscientific to Ed .If I did I would be shown the door . Ironically Ed when he was alive lived in a town of exactly the same name as mine where I live . If I had met I would have liked to have asked about the AR test record ( and bombers ) . That record more an experience in music that anything useful . Then again music is not such a bad thing .
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