Hi,
Certainly, but they're not the only ones with a similar approach out there.
The theory is based on the work of Dutchman Vanderheyde, unfortunately I'm very badly documented on the details of the theory myself but A.J. Van den Hul is one of those people that uses it for his own work.
Well executed it can yield absolutely stunning results.
Hi,
For your info, in the U.K SD Acoustics used the Visaton ribbons on the SD1s and OBS2s_ I own a pair of SD1s_ and Max Townsend of Elite Rock fame used it on a speaker as well as a_ his words_ "tickler" in a speaker combining the ribbon with a Jordan full-range unit.
The Topas should be a great kit. Let us know how you like it.
Cheers,
Certainly, but they're not the only ones with a similar approach out there.
The theory is based on the work of Dutchman Vanderheyde, unfortunately I'm very badly documented on the details of the theory myself but A.J. Van den Hul is one of those people that uses it for his own work.
Well executed it can yield absolutely stunning results.
Hi,
For your info, in the U.K SD Acoustics used the Visaton ribbons on the SD1s and OBS2s_ I own a pair of SD1s_ and Max Townsend of Elite Rock fame used it on a speaker as well as a_ his words_ "tickler" in a speaker combining the ribbon with a Jordan full-range unit.
The Topas should be a great kit. Let us know how you like it.
Cheers,
Very sorry Rob, ignore that comment. Its just a personal opinion.
They are of course hi-end units its just that I have a big following of ribbons going on at the moment and every dome I've heard, when compared against the Raven, is dissappointing. Not to mention the fact that I was venting some anger at the poor state of ribbon selection in the UK.
The Revelator is nice unit and was used in a couple of discontinued Wilson Benesch speakers including the ACT 1 & 2. Both those speakers are very nice indeed but its another experience hearing the sheer airy quality and imaging of a good ribbon.
The ATC S75 dome mid is pretty special and doubly so when used with the Raven as the system I heard showed. Nothing else comes close (again my own humble opinion) but I was in Bristol at the show this year, so had a chance to listen to some pretty special speakers and compare.
I also know that the ATC has been used with one design I'm familiar with - the Prestige from Wilmslow. So yes they are a good match.
They are of course hi-end units its just that I have a big following of ribbons going on at the moment and every dome I've heard, when compared against the Raven, is dissappointing. Not to mention the fact that I was venting some anger at the poor state of ribbon selection in the UK.
The Revelator is nice unit and was used in a couple of discontinued Wilson Benesch speakers including the ACT 1 & 2. Both those speakers are very nice indeed but its another experience hearing the sheer airy quality and imaging of a good ribbon.
The ATC S75 dome mid is pretty special and doubly so when used with the Raven as the system I heard showed. Nothing else comes close (again my own humble opinion) but I was in Bristol at the show this year, so had a chance to listen to some pretty special speakers and compare.
I also know that the ATC has been used with one design I'm familiar with - the Prestige from Wilmslow. So yes they are a good match.
planet10 said:
CeramicMan said:
dave, i would like to know (n your opinion) what ar the best ribbns under $100, and $200. BTW has your FE103 + ribbon based speaker seen the light yet?
CM, I have noticed that HF directivity seems to affect the imaging. What I also notice is that those speakers that have a very small sweet spot really lock into the soundstage (in that small area) while those speakers that have a larger sweet spot have less precise imaging but over a larger area. Now it all depends on your need. I normally listen to musinc with atleast my wife, sometimes my son too, and on occasion a few friends. I would like it if my next speaker has pin point imaging over atleast an area of 4' x 4' and reasonable imaging across the widht of the room 6 - 12 feet in front of the speakers.
what makes sense is to have a switchable second rear tweeter. The rear tweeter need not be as good as the front or even XOed at the same frequency. The Snell Type C was one such design. In fact I so like the entire Snell range (esp the Type A, C, E, J, K) that I would love to get my hands on these designs.
So one can have a ribbon in the front and a dome in the rear. swtich the dome on when you need a wider soundstage (like for HT).
I think that compromises will always have to be made when wanting high-quality sound in a room. Sitting in some optimal sweet spot is like wearing weightless headphones, with a bit of cross-talk and reverb added in. Sitting further from the sweet spot will always ruin that effect, and naturally, having speakers with wider dispersion will be like adding more cross-talk and reverb. My Accuton speakers have really wide dispersion, but I don't blame them for having that property and compromising the imaging. On the contrary, I find that they have a really natural "live band playing in the room" sound that's just as good wherever you sit. On the other hand, my speakers would completely fester and die even compared to speakers with cheap beaming soft-domes, if they had to play in a bare room with no damping but lots of hard surfaces.navin said:
Ribbons and headphones
A cheap pair of headphones will have better imaging/soundstage etc than just about any loudspeaker set-up. I've always found that this makes it a lot harder to judge the sound quality of headphones compared to loudspeakers. In my mind, headphones always get lots of bonus points for good imaging, even if many of their other qualities are worse. If imaging could be completely ignored, then I think it would be a much more level playing field between headphones and loudspeakers, and likewise with ribbons versus other types of tweeters.
Not sure about having extra tweeters, that's just asking for trouble.
CM
Could you please elaborate what type of recordings you are listening to ? Mainly dummyhead recordings ?
With anything else, ANY headphone will perform worse than a good speaker*. I had a chance to listen to the Stax models and none of them performed as nicely as my Manger speakers do, in this respect .
Regards
Charles
*P.S.: Some of the best speakers in this respect are some crappy little P.C. speakers we have at the office.
Hm.
I think, the Fostex ribbon wasn't mentioned.
Cheaper than the Visaton - at least here in Europe - and I think still better.
Look at it's specifications here (Adobe PDF).
Higher sensitivity than Visaton's, but as I see also a bit direction-sensitive.
I'm in the same thing, buliding a relatively cheap really good performing box using ribbon highs. They just cannot be beaten.
The fitting speaker for any of these ribbons will be in my case a Fostex FE208ES 8" fullrange driver in a Transmission Line box. (I'm looking at http://www.t-linespeakers.org/ right now to find some information regarding TL-calculations and plans..
I think, the Fostex ribbon wasn't mentioned.
Cheaper than the Visaton - at least here in Europe - and I think still better.
Look at it's specifications here (Adobe PDF).
Higher sensitivity than Visaton's, but as I see also a bit direction-sensitive.
I'm in the same thing, buliding a relatively cheap really good performing box using ribbon highs. They just cannot be beaten.
The fitting speaker for any of these ribbons will be in my case a Fostex FE208ES 8" fullrange driver in a Transmission Line box. (I'm looking at http://www.t-linespeakers.org/ right now to find some information regarding TL-calculations and plans..
I tried several Ribbons over the time and had these Fostex FT7RP in my speakers as first try.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6528&highlight=
The frequency plot from the Fostrex pdf i can´t confirm. The ribbon itself tended to sound a bit unpleasent,
or harsh in a kind compared to others.
The pic below shows one of the combinations i tried.
I still like the Technics Veterans based on the TH-400 foil most. Quadral, the ones i use atm use this foil
with a bigger coupled volume and neodyn magnets. Therefore i get a little better response as the original TH-400.
The Visaton MHT seems to be a real alternative cause it is still in the stores. I heard it once and think it
is in the same league as the Technics ones. Sadly i had no chance to compare it directly.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6528&highlight=
The frequency plot from the Fostrex pdf i can´t confirm. The ribbon itself tended to sound a bit unpleasent,
or harsh in a kind compared to others.
The pic below shows one of the combinations i tried.
I still like the Technics Veterans based on the TH-400 foil most. Quadral, the ones i use atm use this foil
with a bigger coupled volume and neodyn magnets. Therefore i get a little better response as the original TH-400.
The Visaton MHT seems to be a real alternative cause it is still in the stores. I heard it once and think it
is in the same league as the Technics ones. Sadly i had no chance to compare it directly.
Attachments
Raven R-1 is probably the best under $250.
The MHT12 from Vistaton also seems to be well reviewed, along with ATD LeRibbon in the less than $200
Take a look here for the list of recommended Ribbons etc.
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-9.php3
The MHT12 from Vistaton also seems to be well reviewed, along with ATD LeRibbon in the less than $200
Take a look here for the list of recommended Ribbons etc.
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-9.php3
The Raven R1 is a 4-Ohm unit (Nominal Z). How can I fit it to a 8-Ohm fullrange ?
Resistor in series ? No. Too much would just be lost at the resistor.
Can these be ordered with 8 Ohms nominal Z ? Or be modified (the transformer unit perhaps) easily ?
Two Orca Raven R1's in series, that would be fine. But it's twice the amount of money
Resistor in series ? No. Too much would just be lost at the resistor.
Can these be ordered with 8 Ohms nominal Z ? Or be modified (the transformer unit perhaps) easily ?
Two Orca Raven R1's in series, that would be fine. But it's twice the amount of money
You really would need to seek the advice from someone with far more knowledge than I have to answer that question.
Its one of the reasons why I always choose speakers with the same nominal impedance, though it can be said that impedance values throughout the frequency range vary tremedously from one design to the next even though they have the same nominal impedance rating.
Its one of the reasons why I always choose speakers with the same nominal impedance, though it can be said that impedance values throughout the frequency range vary tremedously from one design to the next even though they have the same nominal impedance rating.
If you guys don't mind some input from a _horn enthusiast_ _grin_
If you guys don't mind some input from a _horn enthusiast_ _grin_
I don't think there's a "best" tweeter, mid-range, or woofer, etc. There are just drivers that are better than others for a specific application. The various tradeoffs are what must be considered by the system designer.
Generally, for best coherence in the system you want to be sure of matching dispersion characteristics of the drivers throughout the crossover bandwith.
One of the reasons that the Azurahorns seem so _magical_ to everyone that hears them is their wide dispersion characteristics. The sweet spot is very wide and can easily cover two seats. When you leave the sweet spot you very gradually lose a little, yet still have the perception of _not_ being out of the sweet spot even at the sides of the room. In this case, what you give up in the eternal tradoffs is less horn loading due to the shorter flare.
My point is that you need to pay careful attention to the dispersion characteristics of the overall system and particularly in the crossover overlap regions to ensure excellent integration.
CLaudio is correct to raise a concern about 30 degree vertical dispersion. I don't mean to say that this can not be done quite well, but it should be carefully considered as part of the overall design.
Example : Jim Griffins "Needles" array uses a ribbon and is one of the better integrated designs out there. ......However, verticle line arrays are well known for better dispersion in a horizontal plane, and Jim clearly has put in a good bit of thought and careful design.
Add "match dispersion charactistics appropriately" to Sjef's comments and you should be on a pretty good track _grin_
Bottm line: dispersion characteristics should be appropriately considered as a part of the overall design.
Regards
Ken L
If you guys don't mind some input from a _horn enthusiast_ _grin_
I don't think there's a "best" tweeter, mid-range, or woofer, etc. There are just drivers that are better than others for a specific application. The various tradeoffs are what must be considered by the system designer.
claudio said:
Generally, for best coherence in the system you want to be sure of matching dispersion characteristics of the drivers throughout the crossover bandwith.
CeramicMan said:
One of the reasons that the Azurahorns seem so _magical_ to everyone that hears them is their wide dispersion characteristics. The sweet spot is very wide and can easily cover two seats. When you leave the sweet spot you very gradually lose a little, yet still have the perception of _not_ being out of the sweet spot even at the sides of the room. In this case, what you give up in the eternal tradoffs is less horn loading due to the shorter flare.
My point is that you need to pay careful attention to the dispersion characteristics of the overall system and particularly in the crossover overlap regions to ensure excellent integration.
CLaudio is correct to raise a concern about 30 degree vertical dispersion. I don't mean to say that this can not be done quite well, but it should be carefully considered as part of the overall design.
Example : Jim Griffins "Needles" array uses a ribbon and is one of the better integrated designs out there. ......However, verticle line arrays are well known for better dispersion in a horizontal plane, and Jim clearly has put in a good bit of thought and careful design.
Sjef said:
Add "match dispersion charactistics appropriately" to Sjef's comments and you should be on a pretty good track _grin_
Bottm line: dispersion characteristics should be appropriately considered as a part of the overall design.
Regards
Ken L
Vortex said:
Yes, but they are hard to get a hold of (althou i have a pr for sale). They are quite good in the BD-Pipe. I do plan to pu them into some sort of 1/4 wave design.
zygibajt said:
The brief listen gave me enuff confidence to fork out money i didn't have to buy them... the best tweeters i've heard to date (and listened enuff to be sure) are still the Decca London Ribbon, these reminded me enuff of them to go ahead. (i had to sell my Deccas to pay the bills)
dave
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