Stereo does give a bit of spacial clues, although I do remember one Bosendorffer recording that was rather causually done and the effect was that of a 25-30 foot wide piano. In that case, mono would have been better. Just the same, if judgement is used when recording, stereo will give a pretty decent approximation of the size and placement of the instrument.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Best Regards,
TerryO
Yamaha NS1000 reproduce the piano very well; every time I listen to a well recorded piece of piano music it strikes me how well and real it sounds. I have a real Yamaha piano for comparison....
Enclosures of these speakers were made in Yamaha's piano works.
When you can score a pair of these speakers you won't be disappointed I am sure.
Quality of the amp is important as these speakers reveal everything.
Enclosures of these speakers were made in Yamaha's piano works.
When you can score a pair of these speakers you won't be disappointed I am sure.
Quality of the amp is important as these speakers reveal everything.
Okay, so if the speakers will be fairly close to the keyboardist, how about this...
Two speakers, but each one crossed over:
- put a shallow high pass filter on the right speaker
- a shallow low pass filter on the left.
The effect would be a similar sort of sound as you'd get with a proper piano, but I'd say it'd depend on the listening distance.
The sort of thing I had in mind...
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
But add a subwoofer to the left side. A decent 15" should get notes all the way down. Smallish sealed box, throw some power at it, eq as needed.
Chris
Two speakers, but each one crossed over:
- put a shallow high pass filter on the right speaker
- a shallow low pass filter on the left.
The effect would be a similar sort of sound as you'd get with a proper piano, but I'd say it'd depend on the listening distance.
The sort of thing I had in mind...
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
But add a subwoofer to the left side. A decent 15" should get notes all the way down. Smallish sealed box, throw some power at it, eq as needed.
Chris
Oh, this is good if you have in-home comparison of acoustic and reproduced. Unfortunately, these are no longer available and hard to find. Anything similar currently available that you know of?
I like the sound of my SP2's better in stereo on high-art stereo recording, but reproducing an Ensoniq EPS piano sample in churches I use one T-300 projector for convenience. If you like mono better you can turn one off, but if you're going to listen to pop or orchestra music also, two speakers from the same production day will match better than two from different years.
I don't know what VOTT the Peavey's are copied after, but the pictures look sort of the same. I heard a set of VOTT's in 1966 at the Longpoint Cinema, Houston at the urging of my band director. Fabulous sound. They were behind the wall, I didn't see them. The only set of VOTT's that appeared here on CL disappeared in 2 hours. There is a lot more money made on the coasts, and antique dealers know where to buy (here) and where to sell (Seattle). Like I say, buy a CD and take a listen and see what you like. I use my Steinway as the calibrator for my sound, and the ST70 is in for a driver tube upgrade now that the caps and output tubes are fine- a little honky. The CS800s and the djoffe mod ST120 sound great! when the breaker is not blown or the one channel doesn't drop out.
PA vs home speaker strikes me as a big chimera on this board. PA use is 100's of watts, the SP2 will do it, but the extensive distortion and frequency charts are at 1 W like I use in the home. Home use speakers like the JBL come with about 5 drivers instead of two, and one frequency number, which is not qualified as to how many db down the end points are (consumer tends to be 10 db point, PA speakers tend to spec frequency at 3 db points). JBL pro horn speakers get a lot of respect on this forum, but their specs are not nearly complete as the Peavey's, and I can't hear them anyway, as they don't sell in the Louisville market, not even used. I've heard electrovoice and london? at the musician store, and they are not suitable for home use on piano or anything else. Incedently, I tested the SP5's at the store with a CS600s amp; try to use one as good if you go to a musician's supply. SP5 Upper horn area fine, low bass notes, too wimpy with a 12" cone. There is a SP7 with two 15" bass drivers if you are into organ music and professional movers to move it in. I had to have help getting the 95 lb SP2-XT's on the stands, but the newer SP2-g's are about 15 pounds less.
I don't know what VOTT the Peavey's are copied after, but the pictures look sort of the same. I heard a set of VOTT's in 1966 at the Longpoint Cinema, Houston at the urging of my band director. Fabulous sound. They were behind the wall, I didn't see them. The only set of VOTT's that appeared here on CL disappeared in 2 hours. There is a lot more money made on the coasts, and antique dealers know where to buy (here) and where to sell (Seattle). Like I say, buy a CD and take a listen and see what you like. I use my Steinway as the calibrator for my sound, and the ST70 is in for a driver tube upgrade now that the caps and output tubes are fine- a little honky. The CS800s and the djoffe mod ST120 sound great! when the breaker is not blown or the one channel doesn't drop out.
PA vs home speaker strikes me as a big chimera on this board. PA use is 100's of watts, the SP2 will do it, but the extensive distortion and frequency charts are at 1 W like I use in the home. Home use speakers like the JBL come with about 5 drivers instead of two, and one frequency number, which is not qualified as to how many db down the end points are (consumer tends to be 10 db point, PA speakers tend to spec frequency at 3 db points). JBL pro horn speakers get a lot of respect on this forum, but their specs are not nearly complete as the Peavey's, and I can't hear them anyway, as they don't sell in the Louisville market, not even used. I've heard electrovoice and london? at the musician store, and they are not suitable for home use on piano or anything else. Incedently, I tested the SP5's at the store with a CS600s amp; try to use one as good if you go to a musician's supply. SP5 Upper horn area fine, low bass notes, too wimpy with a 12" cone. There is a SP7 with two 15" bass drivers if you are into organ music and professional movers to move it in. I had to have help getting the 95 lb SP2-XT's on the stands, but the newer SP2-g's are about 15 pounds less.
I don't know. But I think that extension both ways is important and probably pretty flat response as well. Lack of harmonics in the lower registers would make low extension more important than usual for the ear since the brain is used to interpreting even order harmonics as a fundamental. I think Indiana implied 40 Hz.
piano range
Hi there: Good advice, look-up the frequency range of the piano, the lowest note on the piano (27hz) is below every other orchestra instrument except the pipe organ and is seldom attained by audio equipment. ...regards, Michael
Hi there: Good advice, look-up the frequency range of the piano, the lowest note on the piano (27hz) is below every other orchestra instrument except the pipe organ and is seldom attained by audio equipment. ...regards, Michael
Yeah, console pianos like my Steinway (a 40") do some fakey stuff to the bass to sound good with only 50" strings. My Steinway has the treble of a grand, but I like the bass better from Steinway grands on the SP2-XT's, on artistically recorded records or CDs. Even if my floor could hold up a grand, my hands and wrists aren't strong enough to play one much, they have heavier touch than a console. That is one difference between the Steinway console and the Yamaha- the Yamaha 46" studio at the church has much duller bass than my 40" Steinway at home. I like the brightness of the Steinway console (1941) bass strings- it is not mostly 27-54 hz.
Here is about where I had left off last summer when I had to take a trip back to florida to get the rest of my equipment and since then I have rearanging my room been getting it all rehooked up.
Although the little box speakers are in the photos, they were only used for physical support of the panels.
And as an experiement to try and block the back wave from causing cancelations to the low frequency range.
But I do use the woofer for bass with a piece of duct tape over the tweeter.
I haven't reread the post but do believe that the response curves are just the panels alone measured in nearfield at about 1.5 to 2 feet.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/109789-esl-diaphragm-coating-8.html#post2162068
And this one when I first got one of them back running.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/162127-different-ideas-esl-panels.html#post2111911
This setup was audtioned by several people with amazement by several different types of music and I have never heard kansas's "CARRY ON WAYWARD SUN" sound as good as it did that day.
Even with my little cheapy amp that would shut down at times due to the very low impedence at the high frequency peaks.
But the sound was balanced after I got it tweaked in and quite loud enough that it was very difficult to maintain a conversation.
Once you get the bias supply and stepup transformers along with a decent amplifier, building the panels is dirt cheap as far as cost are concerned and then you can experiement with different sizes ,shape and configurations as you wish to suit your tastes.
I also strongley suggest magnetic planars aswell, As they are less complicated to construct and you will get a similar sound quality.
I hope this helps you to explore these technologies further. jer
Although the little box speakers are in the photos, they were only used for physical support of the panels.
And as an experiement to try and block the back wave from causing cancelations to the low frequency range.
But I do use the woofer for bass with a piece of duct tape over the tweeter.
I haven't reread the post but do believe that the response curves are just the panels alone measured in nearfield at about 1.5 to 2 feet.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/109789-esl-diaphragm-coating-8.html#post2162068
And this one when I first got one of them back running.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/162127-different-ideas-esl-panels.html#post2111911
This setup was audtioned by several people with amazement by several different types of music and I have never heard kansas's "CARRY ON WAYWARD SUN" sound as good as it did that day.
Even with my little cheapy amp that would shut down at times due to the very low impedence at the high frequency peaks.
But the sound was balanced after I got it tweaked in and quite loud enough that it was very difficult to maintain a conversation.
Once you get the bias supply and stepup transformers along with a decent amplifier, building the panels is dirt cheap as far as cost are concerned and then you can experiement with different sizes ,shape and configurations as you wish to suit your tastes.
I also strongley suggest magnetic planars aswell, As they are less complicated to construct and you will get a similar sound quality.
I hope this helps you to explore these technologies further. jer
I used a very old peavy PVM 520TN mike and it doesn't seem to have much High end left to it anymore which is probably the cause of the high end drop off so quickly and also the 16 bit card I was using aswell.
I now am using a GINA24 24bit card and will be getting a better measurement microphone later this year. jer
I now am using a GINA24 24bit card and will be getting a better measurement microphone later this year. jer
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Your question is interesting and I'm wondering what your source is, your mention of keyboard suggests a sampled keyboard or some sort of synth but what exactly do you have in mind here?
Next, keep in mind that piano is considered to be one of the most discriminating instruments for evaluating loudspeakers because of the rich harmonic content and therefore you would probably want the most accurate speakers possible with good dynamic range which are typically expensive. Think B&W 801s, big Dunlavy Towers, etc. some lower cost solutions might be PSB Stratus Golds and the old Paradigm Studio 100, link to old review in .pdf format:
http://www.paradigm.com/index.php?option=com_joomdoc&task=doc_download&gid=1001&Itemid=8
I would be very careful about using a studio monitor type speaker with horns but there are some newer excellent ones.
These are quite good but expensive, might need some LF EQ:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=26&MId=5
What is your budget for speakers?
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Magnepan 1.6 or better (with Butch amp) or ESL
....would be my vote. If you want more first octave performance add a dipole sub. I run the Synthogy Ivory Grand through Maggie 1.6's with Bag End subs and it makes even non-audiophiles shudder. I mic pianos every day and run them through top-of-the-line PA speakers and have to say that for a small room I don't think horns can touch a Maggie when it comes to realism.
FWIW....
....would be my vote. If you want more first octave performance add a dipole sub. I run the Synthogy Ivory Grand through Maggie 1.6's with Bag End subs and it makes even non-audiophiles shudder. I mic pianos every day and run them through top-of-the-line PA speakers and have to say that for a small room I don't think horns can touch a Maggie when it comes to realism.
FWIW....
Cal, I'm beginning to think that horns may be a good option for general stereo use in my rather large environment. I downloaded SketchUp but haven't learned to use it yet... Imagine a 30 x 15 living room half-open to an adjacent dining room and family room on one end and with vaulted ceiling. There are also openings to a hallway along one side and the vaulted ceiling is common all the way down half of the house. All that creates a lot of cubic feet of effective acoustic space. Speakers are about halfway along one side of the great room and I listen about 12' from speakers.
I am planning an OB system because I like the sound, but I'm having reservations about them in this large space. The sound from my current EV 12TRXB vintage BR's seem a bit lost in that space even at a good sweet spot. Not complaining, but horns just seem like they may sound better in a big space, even at a modest distance. I can use the OB's in a smaller space I'm building in the basement that will have better acoustics anyway. Any suggestions as to where to start looking for HiFi horns?
I know I shifted away from the original keyboard concern with this question but it got me wondering. And if, for example, the SP2 is good for keyboard, how would it work out as a HiFi speaker if one EQ'd it to introduce some "color" to the sound to compensate for flatness?
Geddes for Hi Fi horns. His company is Gedlee and he is/was on this forum:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gedlee/
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/127152-building-nathan-10-a.html
A budget Hi Fi horn: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gedlee/
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/127152-building-nathan-10-a.html
A budget Hi Fi horn: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
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Uh, I use the SP2-XT's on everything. Slightly wimpy on 32' organ pipes, but everything else, I love them. My couch is 10' away from the left and 13' from the right, which is slightly imbalanced but has plenty of highs due to the wide dispersion design. From the double door into the dining room, (15') perfect balance, through the single door at the kitchen table (30') still plenty of highs. I use piano CD's for test because piano is so hard to do correctly, and I know how it should sound.I listen to classical, rock, pop, strumma-strumma singer-songwriter, all of it on the new to me SP2's. I picked up a graphic equalizer with the $1000 craigslist band system (SP2-XT speakers, stands, CS800s amp, 20 input mixer, equalizer, 100' snake, digitech quad 4 effect) but haven't hooked it up. The equalizer won't fit on top of the piano. My room is near "perfect" for horns, but yours doesn't sound half bad. There are 25 Peavey dealers in Washington, look on the website. Also look up JBL, they are the inheritors of the VOTT engineering drawings.Note the JBL website splits into Pro and consumer lines, the horns are sold on the pro site. All those other high end PB2 mentioned, they aren't sold here, and never hit craigslist either. However, if my amp oscillates and I blow a driver, my Peavey dealer has parts 2 miles from here. I have KLH 23 speakers with an un-duplicatable blown tweeter in the attic, and my Dad threw the LWEIII speakers away with the blown tweeter.
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I'd be curious to compare a Geddes Speaker to a Meyer UPA-1p, D&B E9 or the like. The Meyers have a very distinct sound, one which people like, but I wouldn't consider to be utterly realistic. Geddes uses the B&C DE250 right?
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