Hi All,
I'm just new in this forum and especially class D amp. After going through many threads, I think that it is a time to start a new experience.
I want to try some high power class D amp for my diy project but most of the thread I read is about technical discussion. There is very few information about the sound quality. I get confuse because I do not know exactly which amp should I start with my project. The problem is there are too many amps in different brand and varieties, range from Ucd(w & w/o AD8260), Lc audio and ICE.
I use Magnepan 1.6 in my system and it always hungry for power. Although I fed my monster with SS 500w/4 ohm amp, it is never enough. The impedance of magnepan is very low at 4 ohm and I love tube sound. But all my tubes cannot drive magnepan.
Can anyone help recommend me? Thanks you in advance
Kittikun
I'm just new in this forum and especially class D amp. After going through many threads, I think that it is a time to start a new experience.
I want to try some high power class D amp for my diy project but most of the thread I read is about technical discussion. There is very few information about the sound quality. I get confuse because I do not know exactly which amp should I start with my project. The problem is there are too many amps in different brand and varieties, range from Ucd(w & w/o AD8260), Lc audio and ICE.
I use Magnepan 1.6 in my system and it always hungry for power. Although I fed my monster with SS 500w/4 ohm amp, it is never enough. The impedance of magnepan is very low at 4 ohm and I love tube sound. But all my tubes cannot drive magnepan.
Can anyone help recommend me? Thanks you in advance
Kittikun
Class D amps
Personally I am very happy with both ICE Power and the UcD amplifiers, both the 180 and the 400.
The ICE Power amps drive 4 ohms fine. They also have a version of the 500A, called the 500AC that is supposed to be 2 ohm stable. However, I have not had a chance to try the samples they sent me into a sub 4 ohm load.
The UcD180 operated fine into 4 ohms for me as well. However, again, I am unsure about sub 4 ohm loads.
However, if the amp chokes on the Maggies, note that the Maggies are almost purely resistive and do not go crazy as much as conventional speakers if you have to put in a bit of series resistance to keep the power amp stable.
Personally I am very happy with both ICE Power and the UcD amplifiers, both the 180 and the 400.
The ICE Power amps drive 4 ohms fine. They also have a version of the 500A, called the 500AC that is supposed to be 2 ohm stable. However, I have not had a chance to try the samples they sent me into a sub 4 ohm load.
The UcD180 operated fine into 4 ohms for me as well. However, again, I am unsure about sub 4 ohm loads.
However, if the amp chokes on the Maggies, note that the Maggies are almost purely resistive and do not go crazy as much as conventional speakers if you have to put in a bit of series resistance to keep the power amp stable.
Series Resistor to the Speaker
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your recommendation.
The problem when I use SS amp with Maggie is the bass is very thin. When I use a PP 75 W tube amp(Mcintosh MC 75) with Maggie through the 4 ohm output, the bass is much better but it's still lack of the body.
If I were to put, let's say 4 ohm resistor in series to Maggie whether it has any adverse effect to both amp and Maggie. I think that the sound pressure will drop a bit for 3 db. Anyway, I will try your idea.
Can you please tell me where I can find the ICE Power? Thanks.
Kittikun
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your recommendation.
The problem when I use SS amp with Maggie is the bass is very thin. When I use a PP 75 W tube amp(Mcintosh MC 75) with Maggie through the 4 ohm output, the bass is much better but it's still lack of the body.
If I were to put, let's say 4 ohm resistor in series to Maggie whether it has any adverse effect to both amp and Maggie. I think that the sound pressure will drop a bit for 3 db. Anyway, I will try your idea.
Can you please tell me where I can find the ICE Power? Thanks.
Kittikun
Well, you can't. They are for OEM use only. I know of guys who have used commercially produced amps using ICEpower on current hog speakers. They seem to be pleased. I don't consider Maggies to be current hogs, as compared to something like Apogees.
You would probably be better off trying the UcD modules......easily obtainable, and probably more DIY-friendly in terms of implementation.
Jocko
You would probably be better off trying the UcD modules......easily obtainable, and probably more DIY-friendly in terms of implementation.
Jocko
ICE Power
Yes Jocko you are correct. ICE Power modules are only available on an OEM basis. I'm a bit spoiled being the chief electronics engineer for one of those OEMs. I get evaluation samples of all the ICE products as soon as they are available. I can count about half a dozen within little more than arms reach.
But I have heard of some people getting their hands on some. However Jan Peter ot Hypex sent me samples of the UcD180 and UcD400 his company makes. I have to admit that the performance was very good and to tell you the truth, the iCE power people should worry about the Hypex products. As well, the UcD modules are quite a bit easier to use to replace Class AB amplifiers, specially in the power supply as the UcDs use a conventional bi-polar power supply while the ICE use a single supply but need auxiliary ±12V supplies to work.
Also, ICE modules are H bridge and the output floats at half the supply voltage, making them unsuitable for anything other than powered speakers.
Finally, the UcD modules are actually available to the small quantity buyer.
Therefore, I think that if a DIYer wants a good class D amplifier, or for than matter, any kind of amplifier, that they can actually buy, it is hard to do better than the value offered by the UcD modules. No, they are not quite at the level of things like Mark Levenson but considering the price difference, the value offered is spectacular.
Yes Jocko you are correct. ICE Power modules are only available on an OEM basis. I'm a bit spoiled being the chief electronics engineer for one of those OEMs. I get evaluation samples of all the ICE products as soon as they are available. I can count about half a dozen within little more than arms reach.
But I have heard of some people getting their hands on some. However Jan Peter ot Hypex sent me samples of the UcD180 and UcD400 his company makes. I have to admit that the performance was very good and to tell you the truth, the iCE power people should worry about the Hypex products. As well, the UcD modules are quite a bit easier to use to replace Class AB amplifiers, specially in the power supply as the UcDs use a conventional bi-polar power supply while the ICE use a single supply but need auxiliary ±12V supplies to work.
Also, ICE modules are H bridge and the output floats at half the supply voltage, making them unsuitable for anything other than powered speakers.
Finally, the UcD modules are actually available to the small quantity buyer.
Therefore, I think that if a DIYer wants a good class D amplifier, or for than matter, any kind of amplifier, that they can actually buy, it is hard to do better than the value offered by the UcD modules. No, they are not quite at the level of things like Mark Levenson but considering the price difference, the value offered is spectacular.
High performance Class D & DSP
Hi all,
Just found this site and thought I'd get your take on my position....
I formed a company with some of my former collegues last year and we specialise in class D / switch mode PSU / DSP and networking. We've combined these technologies and produced a range of power modules - pretty similar to B&O's IcePower but with higher power, onboard DSP with PC control and packaged in a slightly more complete format.
We've been pretty successful to date and supply a number of high end loudspeaker manufacturers. We've also had a number of enquiries from relatively small outfits / individuals but I haven't identified a sensible sales model to supply these two ends of the market.
So, that's my dilemma - I would like to be able to supply the DIY community but in such a way as it doesn't compromise the work we've done with our major customers - what do you think?
BTW, I've not mentioned the company name - I'm not trying to sell anything!
Hi all,
Just found this site and thought I'd get your take on my position....
I formed a company with some of my former collegues last year and we specialise in class D / switch mode PSU / DSP and networking. We've combined these technologies and produced a range of power modules - pretty similar to B&O's IcePower but with higher power, onboard DSP with PC control and packaged in a slightly more complete format.
We've been pretty successful to date and supply a number of high end loudspeaker manufacturers. We've also had a number of enquiries from relatively small outfits / individuals but I haven't identified a sensible sales model to supply these two ends of the market.
So, that's my dilemma - I would like to be able to supply the DIY community but in such a way as it doesn't compromise the work we've done with our major customers - what do you think?
BTW, I've not mentioned the company name - I'm not trying to sell anything!
Re: ICE Power
My company also uses the B&O ICE modules, both the bigger 500W version for 2 Ohm load and the smaller one for higher impedances. They drive transformers for a 70V/100V output for Public Address use.
For us this single supply is convenient as we also have to deliver full power from a charged 48V battery for emergency situations. We combine them with a SMPS that delivers normally 58V from the mains and also the small +/- 12V supplies. Battery kicks in via a diode if the mains disappears.
Steven
dmfraser said:
My company also uses the B&O ICE modules, both the bigger 500W version for 2 Ohm load and the smaller one for higher impedances. They drive transformers for a 70V/100V output for Public Address use.
For us this single supply is convenient as we also have to deliver full power from a charged 48V battery for emergency situations. We combine them with a SMPS that delivers normally 58V from the mains and also the small +/- 12V supplies. Battery kicks in via a diode if the mains disappears.
Steven
hi.
"Can you please tell me where I can find the ICE Power? Thanks."
i can give you a hint where you can buy some
email me if you need more info.
rgds - k madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
"Can you please tell me where I can find the ICE Power? Thanks."
i can give you a hint where you can buy some
email me if you need more info.
rgds - k madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
Re: High performance Class D & DSP
So it seems you don’t consider DYI as a major market.
DIY is no threat to your major customers. Your major customers can buy in volume and at lower prices. Think of it in terms of growing the market. The DIY are not in the same market as your major customers, one’s not loosing sales to the other.
Other modules are becoming popular and "standard" in the DIY market so jump in soon ...
davey1 said:
So it seems you don’t consider DYI as a major market.
DIY is no threat to your major customers. Your major customers can buy in volume and at lower prices. Think of it in terms of growing the market. The DIY are not in the same market as your major customers, one’s not loosing sales to the other.
Other modules are becoming popular and "standard" in the DIY market so jump in soon ...
Hi,
Raintalk:
Nice point.
davey1, hi, pretty slick "not trying to sell anything" lol
So, the Xpod huh.
I'd agree with Raintalk, the two are different markets, and as such, have different needs.
It sounds like apart from the smps, it comes with a built in audio card.
The odd DIY're might like an option for a DSP, most won't want to pay the extra $ for it when all they are interested is the amp, or SMPS.
Would the amp itself be better without the added noise and power consumption of the DSP?
Looks like this is your competition:
http://pro-audio.powersoft.it/page.php?use_in=&id_menu=195&id_page=39
Modular can be a good thing.
Xpod sounds alot like Ipod too... that could become a problem for you, I'd come up with a more original name for an original product, before they sue you over it.
Regards,
chris
Raintalk:
Nice point.
davey1, hi, pretty slick "not trying to sell anything" lol
So, the Xpod huh.
I'd agree with Raintalk, the two are different markets, and as such, have different needs.
It sounds like apart from the smps, it comes with a built in audio card.
The odd DIY're might like an option for a DSP, most won't want to pay the extra $ for it when all they are interested is the amp, or SMPS.
Would the amp itself be better without the added noise and power consumption of the DSP?
Looks like this is your competition:
http://pro-audio.powersoft.it/page.php?use_in=&id_menu=195&id_page=39
Modular can be a good thing.
Xpod sounds alot like Ipod too... that could become a problem for you, I'd come up with a more original name for an original product, before they sue you over it.
Regards,
chris
Hi,
Yeh, I have to applaude anyone who wants to supply the DIY community in any way shape or form.
I'm sure I'm not the only one nosy enough to have done this but, just click on his homepage link and you'll find:
http://www.linea-research.co.uk/
Proceed to products and you'll find:
http://www.linea-research.co.uk/product_x_pod.htm
I've also found there is a program related to the Ipod with the same name as their amp module.
Dave didn't make this hard to find Should have started a new thread for it though, it's worthy of it, more people would have seen it too.
Regards,
Chris
Yeh, I have to applaude anyone who wants to supply the DIY community in any way shape or form.
I'm sure I'm not the only one nosy enough to have done this but, just click on his homepage link and you'll find:
http://www.linea-research.co.uk/
Proceed to products and you'll find:
http://www.linea-research.co.uk/product_x_pod.htm
I've also found there is a program related to the Ipod with the same name as their amp module.
Dave didn't make this hard to find
Should have started a new thread for it though, it's worthy of it, more people would have seen it too.Regards,
Chris
Hi,
Yeh that's a good point, they turn on a little slower than they turn off, but that's only as seen under the "typical" ratings, max ratings are all the same, so it probably wouldn't be good to rely on that, and that's not dead time anyway.
IVX posted a nice example of how to use the 2110, search for IVX and 2110.gif and you'll likely find an excellent example showing how to implement it.
I'd consider looking at the HIP series of the same drivers, from intersil. The timing on them is much better according to the data sheet.
Regards,
Chris
Yeh that's a good point, they turn on a little slower than they turn off, but that's only as seen under the "typical" ratings, max ratings are all the same, so it probably wouldn't be good to rely on that, and that's not dead time anyway.
IVX posted a nice example of how to use the 2110, search for IVX and 2110.gif and you'll likely find an excellent example showing how to implement it.
I'd consider looking at the HIP series of the same drivers, from intersil. The timing on them is much better according to the data sheet.
Regards,
Chris
Of some peculiar reason I didn't notice his www-button.classd4sure said:http://www.linea-research.co.uk/
Proceed to products and you'll find:
http://www.linea-research.co.uk/product_x_pod.htm
I've also found there is a program related to the Ipod with the same name as their amp module.
Dave didn't make this hard to find
I have checked the homepage but I didn't find much, nice photos but very little about the products, not a single datasheet in sight.
peranders said:
Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I guess they're just emerging on the market though, so we'll see how well they do getting the act together.
I'm can't say with absolute certainty but I swear there's additional products there that I didn't see a few days ago, or maybe I just didn't notice at the time.
Anyway, bring on those data sheets
Hi all,
Wow! I only posted on Friday so thanks for taking the time to reply - I'm amazed so many have....
For those who did find our website, yes of course I'm trying to sell the stuff, that's my job! - I'm just trying not to force feed people, as I know it's annoying.
Also, I'm well aware of the lack of information on the site - I've tried to give an impression of where we have expertise rather than specifics on a particular product although I do intend to improve this in the near future.
I certainly do not consider the DIY market to be marginal - it's how I started and I have much respect for people doing it their own way. My problem is how to sell effectively to the two ends of the market. B&O and Powersoft have minimum order quantities that basically preclude anyone other than an OEM from getting involved. Some other manufacturers will sell to 'anyone' but this is not as straightforward as it may seem. I think the two key areas are pricing and support;
Despite what some people tell me, effective integration of these products takes time and support. This overhead has to be paid for - ignoring this requirement for application support is a folly in my book; I certainly don't want to sell to someone on the other side of the world and just forget about them if they need some after sales support.
Pricing is the second issue. In my experience pro-audio manufacturers work on a 50% margin i.e. make for $50 and sell for $100. If I sell a unit to BassBins Inc. for $100 they will integrated it into their product and sell it for $200 - $300. I would need to match this kind of pricing so I don't compromise the larger volume OEM sales. The problem is it makes these products seem pretty pricey.
So, I suppose that's it, I feel like I have to sell low volumes at high prices to allow for the support costs and protect our OEM sales - it just doesn't feel right.....you guy's pay more to protect the interests of the larger customers out there.
One final point - the modules' name.
X-Pod comes from the fact that it's designed to be a speaker powering module so 'Pod' seems about right. The X is for its' built in crossover. At the time the only 'X-Pod' I could find was a fishing rod stand). Unfortunately Pod's are big business now and I'm sure they'll be A, B & C-Pod's before long. It's not trademarked in the UK and I haven't had a writ from Mr Gates. (yet) but if we do get some pressure I'm sure we'll change. In the end it's the product that's really important, not the name eh?
Davey
Wow! I only posted on Friday so thanks for taking the time to reply - I'm amazed so many have....
For those who did find our website, yes of course I'm trying to sell the stuff, that's my job! - I'm just trying not to force feed people, as I know it's annoying.
Also, I'm well aware of the lack of information on the site - I've tried to give an impression of where we have expertise rather than specifics on a particular product although I do intend to improve this in the near future.
I certainly do not consider the DIY market to be marginal - it's how I started and I have much respect for people doing it their own way. My problem is how to sell effectively to the two ends of the market. B&O and Powersoft have minimum order quantities that basically preclude anyone other than an OEM from getting involved. Some other manufacturers will sell to 'anyone' but this is not as straightforward as it may seem. I think the two key areas are pricing and support;
Despite what some people tell me, effective integration of these products takes time and support. This overhead has to be paid for - ignoring this requirement for application support is a folly in my book; I certainly don't want to sell to someone on the other side of the world and just forget about them if they need some after sales support.
Pricing is the second issue. In my experience pro-audio manufacturers work on a 50% margin i.e. make for $50 and sell for $100. If I sell a unit to BassBins Inc. for $100 they will integrated it into their product and sell it for $200 - $300. I would need to match this kind of pricing so I don't compromise the larger volume OEM sales. The problem is it makes these products seem pretty pricey.
So, I suppose that's it, I feel like I have to sell low volumes at high prices to allow for the support costs and protect our OEM sales - it just doesn't feel right.....you guy's pay more to protect the interests of the larger customers out there.
One final point - the modules' name.
X-Pod comes from the fact that it's designed to be a speaker powering module so 'Pod' seems about right. The X is for its' built in crossover. At the time the only 'X-Pod' I could find was a fishing rod stand
). Unfortunately Pod's are big business now and I'm sure they'll be A, B & C-Pod's before long. It's not trademarked in the UK and I haven't had a writ from Mr Gates. (yet) but if we do get some pressure I'm sure we'll change. In the end it's the product that's really important, not the name eh?Davey
Hi,
Many good points.
How you want to work out the support issue is up to you of course. Good instructions, data sheets, faqs, tips, readily available will help (OEMs as well), and should be a big part of it. Forums like this are another. Maybe a design example or two could be an option as well.
This way it isn't like you're having to spend on a 1-800# and full time staff just to answer questions, and should help keep costs lower.
Remember the OEMs just bought your product, not the exclusive rights to it, if you think it will make a larger customer want to walk, then you've got a dilema. OEMs will walk on you anyway when a better/cheaper product comes along or suits their purposes for whatever the reason.
Volume based price breaks seems the fair way for everyone, is commonly done, and I don't think anyone honestly expects to pay the same amount the OEMs paid for it in mass quantities anyway, but all within reason. Don't tell us what OEMs are using it, or what they paid for it
Looking forward to seeing more of this.
Regards,
chris
Many good points.
How you want to work out the support issue is up to you of course. Good instructions, data sheets, faqs, tips, readily available will help (OEMs as well), and should be a big part of it. Forums like this are another. Maybe a design example or two could be an option as well.
This way it isn't like you're having to spend on a 1-800# and full time staff just to answer questions, and should help keep costs lower.
Remember the OEMs just bought your product, not the exclusive rights to it, if you think it will make a larger customer want to walk, then you've got a dilema. OEMs will walk on you anyway when a better/cheaper product comes along or suits their purposes for whatever the reason.
Volume based price breaks seems the fair way for everyone, is commonly done, and I don't think anyone honestly expects to pay the same amount the OEMs paid for it in mass quantities anyway, but all within reason. Don't tell us what OEMs are using it, or what they paid for it
Looking forward to seeing more of this.
Regards,
chris
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