I was referring to a all FLH design down to ~70 Hz with a tapped horn or LT sealed sub.GM said:
Probably 3 or 4 way, + sub, so not exactally "full range."
Any suggestions as to what to read besides Bruce Edgar's, Keele's, Dinsdale's, and Danley's work?
Otherwise I'm just using ideas from building race engines decades ago...
Robert
FWIW I learned TL/horn design to have a racer's 'edge' WRT induction/exhaust system design to off-set my complete lack of depth perception. Succeeded too, though never for long since though I didn't break any rules, they would outlaw them for not being within the 'spirit' of the rules. I did cause them to re-write a few of the tech rules though.
Again FWIW, I use to have such a FLH system and was forced into a 'fire' sale some years ago and one of the things to go was my 70 -500 Hz mid-bass system, forcing me to use my dual HE 15" EBS 'sub' cabs for what I assumed would be a 'poor' substitute only to find I preferred its more open sound enough to not mind the efficiency 'hit'.
Indeed, at >100 dB eff. it's still enough 99.9% of the time if there's enough clean power available and it also masks some of the noise a 111+ dB eff. system highlights on even the best of source/signal chains.
So all things considered, if in the unlikely event I bother to make another 'full tilt boogie' stereo system for myself it will be a waveguide loaded one using the Unity concept (assuming TD/whoever doesn't find an even better solution).
GM
edit: Oops! Ignored your Q, read Dr. Geddes, et al WRT constant directivity horns and waveguides.
I did cause them to re-write a few of the tech rules though. Again FWIW, I use to have such a FLH system and was forced into a 'fire' sale some years ago and one of the things to go was my 70 -500 Hz mid-bass system, forcing me to use my dual HE 15" EBS 'sub' cabs for what I assumed would be a 'poor' substitute only to find I preferred its more open sound enough to not mind the efficiency 'hit'.
Indeed, at >100 dB eff. it's still enough 99.9% of the time if there's enough clean power available and it also masks some of the noise a 111+ dB eff. system highlights on even the best of source/signal chains.
So all things considered, if in the unlikely event I bother to make another 'full tilt boogie' stereo system for myself it will be a waveguide loaded one using the Unity concept (assuming TD/whoever doesn't find an even better solution).
GM
edit: Oops! Ignored your Q, read Dr. Geddes, et al WRT constant directivity horns and waveguides.
Do unitys need to be mounted out in the room to soundstage well?
I noticed William Cowan soffit mounted a pair, with eight Peerless XXLX 830847 in sealed enclosures, also built into the wall.
Unity, The Finale on http://www.cowanaudio.com/
That looked real nice too, but I'd always heard you need space around and behind the speakers for a soundstage?
But then I've heard lotsa things that aren't true...
Robert
I noticed William Cowan soffit mounted a pair, with eight Peerless XXLX 830847 in sealed enclosures, also built into the wall.
Unity, The Finale on http://www.cowanaudio.com/
That looked real nice too, but I'd always heard you need space around and behind the speakers for a soundstage?
But then I've heard lotsa things that aren't true...
Robert
I guess I was trying to figure out why there are so many horns that are highly regarded, Lamhorn, Carfrae, Lowther designs, BIB's, Rons designs etc, etc And if there is a significant delay in sound to make them seem to have a digital delay type effect, then why bother with BLH's in the first place?....
I've got 7.3ft of path in my cabs and don't have the delay effect. When I take the listening position into account approx 9ft from the drivers, that are toed in to the listening position,then the sound from the mouth exit would have to travel the 7.3ft of horn path, bounce off the wall approx another 2 ft, then travel back to the listening position approx 11 ft .. You would think they would sound horrible but they sound very nice.. I know the BIB's are not the finesse Horn,and I'm not claiming they are, but they sound ok to me. I play guitar and tune by ear to a few different tunings, I also have learned many parts and pieces by ear over the years and can detect different tones and time delay very well, so I know my ears are ok. Plus there are only two people that have heard them that talk about some ripple but I don;'t believe they got a fair shake compared to what they were up against and no talk of delay..
Dave
I've got 7.3ft of path in my cabs and don't have the delay effect. When I take the listening position into account approx 9ft from the drivers, that are toed in to the listening position,then the sound from the mouth exit would have to travel the 7.3ft of horn path, bounce off the wall approx another 2 ft, then travel back to the listening position approx 11 ft .. You would think they would sound horrible but they sound very nice.. I know the BIB's are not the finesse Horn,and I'm not claiming they are, but they sound ok to me. I play guitar and tune by ear to a few different tunings, I also have learned many parts and pieces by ear over the years and can detect different tones and time delay very well, so I know my ears are ok. Plus there are only two people that have heard them that talk about some ripple but I don;'t believe they got a fair shake compared to what they were up against and no talk of delay..
Dave
DaveCan said:I guess I was trying to figure out why there are so many horns that are highly regarded, Lamhorn, Carfrae, Lowther designs, BIB's, Rons designs etc, etc And if there is a significant delay in sound to make them seem to have a digital delay type effect, then why bother with BLH's in the first place?....
Dave
"why bother with BLH's in the first place?..."
is where I've ended up.
I kept hearing all the advandages of "fullrange" BLH, and eliminating the evil XO.
And BLHs do increase the FR, and help balance the rising FR Fostex, Lowther, AER, etc have.
I guess there is no free lunch.
Some people are more sensitive to/bothered by group delay than others.
I have heard complaints about it concerning Lowther designs.
If it doesn't bother you, great!
No one else that has listened to my system has noticed it, they just think it sounds great.
And again, Ron's A166 is a very nice sounding BLH.
I just want to try something else.
Robert
What can I say? We all hear basically the same, yet we perceive/process sounds differently based on a plethora of variables that science has only begun to 'scratch the surface' of, but it's my opinion that if enough folks believe they can hear something that degrades the sonic event to the point of making it an ongoing debatable issue, then that's enough 'proof' for me to not recommend it for a HIFI app whether I can hear it or not.
GM
GM
Hmm, what does/does not image and/or sound-stage well is an audio 'minefield' due to there being no real standard and the fact that it's all a bunch of electronic 'smoke n' mirrors' due to the recording rarely being a reasonably accurate reproduction of the live event, so all I'll say is that well designed CD horns and WGs do a very good job of reproduction, ergo good recordings image/sound-stage as good or better than other designs positioned well away from wall boundaries even if backed up against a wall and conversely can sound as flat as the wall if there's little/no ambiance in the recording.
It's these latter recordings that allow 'colorful' tube amps and narrow baffles to 'shine' since they audibly distort the signal, so one can argue that since most recordings have little ambiance and/or poorly mic'd, these euphonic distortions are a performance goal to strive for, but some of us are more interested in accurate reproduction and let the 'chips fall where they may'.
GM
It's these latter recordings that allow 'colorful' tube amps and narrow baffles to 'shine' since they audibly distort the signal, so one can argue that since most recordings have little ambiance and/or poorly mic'd, these euphonic distortions are a performance goal to strive for, but some of us are more interested in accurate reproduction and let the 'chips fall where they may'.
GM
serenechaos said:
Some people are more sensitive to/bothered by group delay than others.
If it doesn't bother you, great!
No one else that has listened to my system has noticed it, they just think it sounds great.
And again, Ron's A166 is a very nice sounding BLH.
Robert
Maybe I shouldn't have even mentioned it.
BLHs are a lot simpler (therefore cost effective) than FLHs, or cloning Kharmas or Avalons (still the best thing I've heard overall).
Robert
GM,
Sorry, I was taking it for a given, a "perfect" recording, front-end, cabling, amps, acoustics, etc, which were totally “transparent” (impossible).
Not starting out with whatever, then “fixing it” before it got to the speakers.
Thinking about going with something like what Cowen built, or something like Edgar Horns, or Romy style horns.
Several things I can’t get out of my mind from RMAF last year.
One, I thought I’d see more BLHs & tube amps, since I’d heard on forums how much better they were than everything else.
Two, I thought I’d hear some nice sounding OBs (I keep hearing OBs are wonderful); ones that sounded a lot better than what I’ve built. Quite a few OBs were there, but I’ve yet to hear an OB I could live with, including very high-end ones; (e.g. Lowther’s with Nelson Pass amps & Galiber TT in one room, Lowthers in LeCleach horns across the hall sounding orders of magnitude better…)
Three, Kharma speakers & SS amps sounded so much better (especially in image and/or sound-stage) that out of hundreds, NOTHING else compared.
In an opera performance you could hear the orchestra was below the floor, in the pit, and the soparano was 50 ft behind them raised on stage, and you were in about the second or third row, about the center…
That's what's set the bar for image and/or sound-stage--I'd never heard anything like it.
Then I went home and listened to my BLHs…
So much of what I "knew" went out the window.
Robert
Sorry, I was taking it for a given, a "perfect" recording, front-end, cabling, amps, acoustics, etc, which were totally “transparent” (impossible).
Not starting out with whatever, then “fixing it” before it got to the speakers.
Thinking about going with something like what Cowen built, or something like Edgar Horns, or Romy style horns.
Several things I can’t get out of my mind from RMAF last year.
One, I thought I’d see more BLHs & tube amps, since I’d heard on forums how much better they were than everything else.
Two, I thought I’d hear some nice sounding OBs (I keep hearing OBs are wonderful); ones that sounded a lot better than what I’ve built. Quite a few OBs were there, but I’ve yet to hear an OB I could live with, including very high-end ones; (e.g. Lowther’s with Nelson Pass amps & Galiber TT in one room, Lowthers in LeCleach horns across the hall sounding orders of magnitude better…)
Three, Kharma speakers & SS amps sounded so much better (especially in image and/or sound-stage) that out of hundreds, NOTHING else compared.
In an opera performance you could hear the orchestra was below the floor, in the pit, and the soparano was 50 ft behind them raised on stage, and you were in about the second or third row, about the center…
That's what's set the bar for image and/or sound-stage--I'd never heard anything like it.
Then I went home and listened to my BLHs…
So much of what I "knew" went out the window.
Robert
I don't keep up with consumer gear at all, so don't have a clue what all these brands are, but Kharmas do 'read' nice. I imagine they only played selections that flattered them.
WRT OBs, if they weren't fairly wide, then they were probably EQ'd to a fare-thee-well, so can't expect too much in the way of dynamics from them.
GM
WRT OBs, if they weren't fairly wide, then they were probably EQ'd to a fare-thee-well, so can't expect too much in the way of dynamics from them.
GM
ronc said:
All hail Ron !! All hail Ron !!!
On a more serious note. While really tempting as it is (and IIRC Dave suggested a similar concept in the Curvy Chang thread,
here , not sure what (if anything) did that led to) the challenge seems to be what Greg is mentioning: Making the two meet "properly" (i.e. with headroom): An OB going down to 200 - 300 Hz with some steam left, and a BVR going all the way up there with some headroom.... not an easy trick.
Plenty of those issue raised in the "Beyond the Ariel" thread (not very productive so far, to put it mildly).
But yet again ..
All hail Ron !! All hail Ron !! Florian
P.S. Hope everything is a-OK on the health side of things, Ron.
Maybe/maybe not, here's a Pioneer B20 BVR I designed a couple of years ago that a local was going to build a proof-of-concept for me to tinker with, but he didn't, so maybe I can get it built once I get all the house/vehicle repairs done that's been stacking up over the years and at a glance it looks like a CSS FR125S on a ~30" wide OB might work well.
GM
GM
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Scottmoose said:
Scott,
I'm more "worried" about OB side of things than BVR, mostly due to the OB cutoff: 200 Hz for an WR on an OB would mandate one of the larger drivers, which in turn would raise the HF question...
Wrt BVR (and woofer choice) what I am wondering is how does that woofer sound @ 300 Hz....
Well, I guess I'll leave that for you guys to sort that out
Regards,
Florian
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