The NE265 is superior to your Vifa. But you just can't simply replace it and expect the speaker to sound great. The mid-range and tweeter must match the NE265 otherwise it's a huge waste.
From what you said, I think there are two issues with your speakers.
1) You are no getting enough of the vocals to stand out
2) The over all listening experience is too laid back. Like you said, pedestrian. I call it SLOW.
Before you replace any drivers, you may want to try this first.
1) Set your crossover at 2.5kHz to the tweeter
2) Set mid-range driver to 2nd order (12dB/oct)
3) Set tweeter to 3rd order (18dB/oct)
4) Butterworth response
See whether the vocals are better now.
The M26WR has a good hard paper cone and was one of the first drivers to offer a ventilated magnet system. The moving mass and magnet strength are nearly ideal for a vented system in the 40-60 liter range. The NE265 will provide additional venting behind the spider, a lower distortion motor system and a non-aluminum voice coil former with lower overall mechanical resistance (higher Qms). While there will be some improvement, it will not be as great as you will get by upgrading the other 2 drivers.
See my post #50 about the M13WG. I do believe those drivers may deteriorate significantly over time, with the resulting sluggishness you describe. I would probably replace it with an NE123 or NE149, or a Peerless HDS series 5". I would replace that and the tweeter with an XT25 or SB29RDC before the woofer.
See my post #50 about the M13WG. I do believe those drivers may deteriorate significantly over time, with the resulting sluggishness you describe. I would probably replace it with an NE123 or NE149, or a Peerless HDS series 5". I would replace that and the tweeter with an XT25 or SB29RDC before the woofer.
Time to read the first post.
He is using an active DSP solution - which almost guarantees that he is measuring the system when eq'in
(..oops, failed to post in time. ..redundant.)
Sorry again, but my own learning experience and history of following forums tell the opposite! DSP makes things to look too easy!
Most people seem to think that drivers have linear response (or the response shown in the datasheet) and skip measuring (includes off-axis and varying distance). Baffle step, diffraction and directivity as well as distortion in lower end get negotiated.
One problem might be overdriving dsp or dacs to clipping.
Steep filters easily give the system a nice looking frequency response with long gating or RTA, but that's not enough for hifi
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Thank you for this set of advice! You've been so helpful!
This sounds like a solution worth experimenting on, I suppose I would be remiss to not try it!
Your WAW speakers are quite beautiful. I rather like your decision to go with a wide baffle ala SF Stradivari. The wide baffle should help with bass response, no?
I guess I need to experiment more, I haven't been completely convinced that a crossover in the midrange is as detrimental as some think -- yet, at least.
Your experience is invaluable!! Thank you so much for this great information!
It is VERY TRUE that the suspension on my M13SG is no longer supple! you have pointed out something that I never would have known without another M13SG user telling me! THANK YOU!
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This is all very interesting. Do you find that the Vifa NE series is near Illuminator performance for a fraction of the cost? I have heard that in some places.
Yes, you are right, my room is sub-optimal with regards to treatment, and I have learned from this thread that I need to take reflected sound more seriously to get more detail.
VERY beautiful! Thank you!
Yes, I agree that having a capable DSP really does make it a little too easy sometimes. It does encourage less planning and measurement, but those are things I will work on to achieve better performance.
Thankfully my DSP and DACs are far from clipping. I may get some hate for this, but my own experimentation has found that a volume-control-less signal path controlled digitally through my PC is much much better at retrieving detail from the music. It may be imperfect on paper due to dynamic range limitations at very very low volumes, but in practice it is significantly superior, in my opinion.
Oh! Here's a great story for you guys!
Andrew Jones of TAD, Elac and Pioneer fame was at my local hifi shop a few days ago demoing his new Andante speakers.
After the show was over, he and I chatted for about 30 minutes -- he basically let me pick his brain about speaker design. I learned a lot about making speakers work as a commercial product, something I hadn't given much thought to before! Active has never caught on because it doesn't allow the user to have an upgrade path and there's too many amps to buy -- that sort of thing. I asked him about driver motor and suspension and cone design and picked up a few tidbits there. I also learned about his bass system on the Andante series and how the passive on the outside acts as a mechanical filter -- all very interesting stuff. Also he does believe that high end film capacitors in a crossover do make a difference over a standard Solen, but the price increase is so much on a commercial product ($3 vs $50+) that it isn't viable, and that he leaves it to the enthusiasts to do that sort of thing.
What reminded me of the story is all the people telling me to better control my reflected sound and try to get more direct. Andrew told me that big Planar speakers sound so detailed simply because the beamwidth is so small, so all you're getting is direct sound vs reflected, much like a headphone. It was kind of a duh why didn't that click before moment for me, but it was such a great experience talking to him. He was very enthusiastic to be a teacher for speaker design
Andrew Jones of TAD, Elac and Pioneer fame was at my local hifi shop a few days ago demoing his new Andante speakers.
After the show was over, he and I chatted for about 30 minutes -- he basically let me pick his brain about speaker design. I learned a lot about making speakers work as a commercial product, something I hadn't given much thought to before! Active has never caught on because it doesn't allow the user to have an upgrade path and there's too many amps to buy -- that sort of thing. I asked him about driver motor and suspension and cone design and picked up a few tidbits there. I also learned about his bass system on the Andante series and how the passive on the outside acts as a mechanical filter -- all very interesting stuff. Also he does believe that high end film capacitors in a crossover do make a difference over a standard Solen, but the price increase is so much on a commercial product ($3 vs $50+) that it isn't viable, and that he leaves it to the enthusiasts to do that sort of thing.
What reminded me of the story is all the people telling me to better control my reflected sound and try to get more direct. Andrew told me that big Planar speakers sound so detailed simply because the beamwidth is so small, so all you're getting is direct sound vs reflected, much like a headphone. It was kind of a duh why didn't that click before moment for me, but it was such a great experience talking to him. He was very enthusiastic to be a teacher for speaker design
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BTW, I really like the XT25 seriest of tweeters, but I am not so sure they are that much better than the D27, and they have a rather narrow listening area. On my desktop, that's ideal. 
If the OP wanted to change tweeters maybe he needs more dispersion, not less?
Also, the D27 and XT25(BG only!) go rather deep. In a 3 way with the right midrange that's not needed so much.
Perhaps checking the off-angle response would be revealing of the OP's issues with his current design. It may very well be an overall power response issue, not an on-axis FR.
Best,
E
If the OP wanted to change tweeters maybe he needs more dispersion, not less?
Also, the D27 and XT25(BG only!) go rather deep. In a 3 way with the right midrange that's not needed so much.
Perhaps checking the off-angle response would be revealing of the OP's issues with his current design. It may very well be an overall power response issue, not an on-axis FR.
Best,
E
If you want that then just use a Neo 10.
But,
-if he said that, then he is wrong.
You do generate several different effects that initially may sound more detailed, but really it's just different.
The most significant effect of a directive speaker at higher freq.s is the resulting pressure difference between the listeners ears with respect to direct sound (not reflected). THAT is increasingly similar to a Headphone.
BTW, I really like the XT25 seriest of tweeters, but I am not so sure they are that much better than the D27, and they have a rather narrow listening area. On my desktop, that's ideal.
If the OP wanted to change tweeters maybe he needs more dispersion, not less?
Also, the D27 and XT25(BG only!) go rather deep. In a 3 way with the right midrange that's not needed so much.
Perhaps checking the off-angle response would be revealing of the OP's issues with his current design. It may very well be an overall power response issue, not an on-axis FR.
Best,
E
Interesting, you find that the sound between the D27 and XT25 is actually not that much different?
If you want that then just use a Neo 10.
But,
-if he said that, then he is wrong.
You do generate several different effects that initially may sound more detailed, but really it's just different.
The most significant effect of a directive speaker at higher freq.s is the resulting pressure difference between the listeners ears with respect to direct sound (not reflected). THAT is increasingly similar to a Headphone.
Very interesting
Oh wow, yeah those guys sound like they'd be awesome to talk to too.
Well guys, I have to say that the hardening surround on my M13SG makes me think that it may actually be causing more problems than I thought. Clearly a driver would sound closed in and muffled if it cannot move as designed, right? Even if the frequency response in it's passband looks good.
That's true. Not only does it diminish low-level detail, but it also tends to reduce apparent depth (both sound field and image). Very similar to enclosures that result in a restricted motion at very low excursion.
-same effect you often get with new drivers (particularly with stiffer spiders and hard foam surrounds).
Doesn't mean though that you net a loudspeaker with lot's of detail if you fix the initially resistance of the mid.s surround.
- good test for this is listening to them much louder (..though with your current high-pass, I'm not sure you'll ever get to the point where the driver is operating with enough excursion to make a difference.)
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If you want that then just use a Neo 10.
But,
-if he said that, then he is wrong.
You do generate several different effects that initially may sound more detailed, but really it's just different.
The most significant effect of a directive speaker at higher freq.s is the resulting pressure difference between the listeners ears with respect to direct sound (not reflected). THAT is increasingly similar to a Headphone.
I have to say I agree with Andrew's observations, and haven't experienced anything like what you're describing.
That's true. Not only does it diminish low-level detail, but it also tends to reduce apparent depth (both sound field and image). Very similar to enclosures that result in a restricted motion at very low excursion.
-same effect you often get with new drivers (particularly with stiffer spiders and hard foam surrounds).
Doesn't mean though that you net a loudspeaker with lot's of detail if you fix the initially resistance of the mid.s surround.
- good test for this is listening to them much louder (..though with your current high-pass, I'm not sure you'll ever get to the point where the driver is operating with enough excursion to make a difference.)
Is it worth putting some silicone tire shine on the surrounds and running them with a 20hz tone near xmax to soften them back up? Or is it basically a case of it being time for new mids?
I don't know if you'll get any improvement, but..
Certainly try something for the surrounds that won't deteriorate the material (..though if they are already "coated" that could be problematic). Pull them from the box to get both sides of the surround.
Let the product dry for at least 24 hours (see if they need more product for a softer result and reapply if necessary with additional wait), then
-run them to linear excursion free-air "fullrange" with some sub-sonics (for at least an hour).
And of course put them back in the box at the same crossover afterward.
Certainly try something for the surrounds that won't deteriorate the material (..though if they are already "coated" that could be problematic). Pull them from the box to get both sides of the surround.
Let the product dry for at least 24 hours (see if they need more product for a softer result and reapply if necessary with additional wait), then
-run them to linear excursion free-air "fullrange" with some sub-sonics (for at least an hour).
And of course put them back in the box at the same crossover afterward.
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I certainly suspect that it's not helping! Haha.
They're not brittle thankfully, just have lost a lot of their willingness to spring back when moved, becoming more doughy. I KNOW there's a proper term for that, but I cant remember what it is.
I will try 40.
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