Hello Clave,
I was looking at the spec sheet of similic II & 515D & the Similic has about 50% more ripple current capability & I assume it has other better specs which aren't listed. My only concearn is will these Similics draw more current than the originsl 515D's. The regulator in this circuot already runs hot & I will be replacing 9 caps @ 470uf 50V. I hope it will work but don't want any problems.
I was looking at the spec sheet of similic II & 515D & the Similic has about 50% more ripple current capability & I assume it has other better specs which aren't listed. My only concearn is will these Similics draw more current than the originsl 515D's. The regulator in this circuot already runs hot & I will be replacing 9 caps @ 470uf 50V. I hope it will work but don't want any problems.
If you are talking about integrated regulators as i.e. LM317/337 or 78xx/79xx they contain protection circuits, and will automatically limit the current if overloaded.
An overload is not very likeable to occur though, because the high currents will normally be of very short duration. Once charged the danger should be over.
The amount of energy stored in the new electrolytics also should be the same, if you use the same capacitance values, but charging can be faster if they have lower ESR, requiring more peak current from the regs. But that will not generate extra heat of any significance
Most of the heat generated in a regulator comes from the voltage drop over it, which is pretty constant.
I'm not familiar with any of those Nichicons, the ones I have looked at for amp power supplies have been the KG's though they are hard to come by.Bump to my previous question: Nichicon VR, VY or KW series? Please, it's an almost 40Euro total price difference and I'm anxious to place the order this evening...
Sorry if I'm too impatient. Time moves slooow...
The VY's have lower ripple current rating that either of the other two. Nichicon don't put much in their datasheets, so short of someone who has tried them speaking up There isn't a lot to go on...
I just checked the KG specs and the rated ripple is only 3.8A for the 15,000 35V so the VY is lower at 3.1, but the other two are higher at 4.3A..
Sorry I know that probably didn't help much
If I had to make a choice I'd choose the KW, but then maybe I'm a mug suckered in by marketing ploys edit: Probably the most useful spec (appart from ripple current rating) when selecting for PS duty is the ESR, which nichicon don't seem to list in any of their datasheets. Tony.
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Alright, it's between VY and KW, then. Another plus for the VY, apart from the lower ripple figures, might be a more extended lifetime, I think. OTOH, perhaps there's a reason for that "Audio" specification of the KW series...
Any other comments? Even if you don't know for sure, what would you bet on?
Any other comments? Even if you don't know for sure, what would you bet on?
I'm not so prepared, but to me Kurt's answer seems perfect.
BTW I've replaced a lot of PS caps with Silmics without a single problem.
Tonerex are baseline audio caps from Elna.
They're better than regular elcos as coupling caps but Silmics are far better.
I've never tried them but from what I've read their character should be warm and a bit closed.
The ripple figure is actually something that you want higher (for better reliability) It is a measure of what the cap can sustain. Though I shudder to think how an amp would sound with 3+ Amps of ripple on the supply rails
Tony.
Oh, I see. My mistake, then; so in fact the KW measures better.
From the beginning of this thread, Mr. Pass recommends the Silmic series caps from Elna.
The documentation and theory of operation of these caps can be found here:
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors for audio applications - Features of the SILMIC series | ELNA
Elna has for many years tried hard to describe the sonic impact of different ingredients in elcaps. You can read about there experiences here:
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors for audio applications | ELNA
I´ve never seen any manufacturer as thorough doing this as Elna, but they are also the main cap supplier for both Sony, Denon, Pioneer amongst a lot of others.
So they kind of specialized in electrolytic capacitors for audio.
To me they are very well sounding, they might not be the ones capable of the largest ripple, but sound seems to have been the main issue.
Also one can experience oneself, that the discription of the sonic footprint of the caps made by Elna is quite true, when it comes to real world applications.
When using electrolytics in a circuit design, one must realize that they sound different. In my experience the Silmics are the best ones to use around most op-amps, their intrinsic sonic footprint matches IMHO very good with these components. Mostly this is excactly what they are used for, and I really do understand why. I think this has something to do with both the circuits PSRR, when very high, it seems as if the sonic footprint of the cap has a small but very positive influence on sound quality. And maybe also the ESR of the cap and/or its linearity.
However in discrete designs with low PSRR, almost any sonic footprint regardless how positive, pretty and smoothing it might seem elsewhere, pretty fast becomes an unwanted sonic feature.
I´ve tried this many times, and IMHO in high fidelity discrete design, there is no such thing as good electrolytic capacitors. They are all more or less degrading sound quality, but in different strengths and in different ways.
Now we cannot really avoid using electrolytics, but one can give it a try to minimize values and eventually replace them with film capacitors if possible.
IMHO lightning fast discrete regulators, hardly in need for any decoupling, do sound much more uncoloured than generously decoupled ones. Thus shunt regulators suddently seems very attractive for low power circuits, but beware, they run very HOT.
Very fast series regulators can also sometimes be used with film decoupling alone, if used for low power analog purposes.
IC regulators cannot be used without electrolytics, as they are not very fast, most of them gradually looses performance @ 1KHz and upwards. In contrast shunts can be done completely without decoupling and with unsurpassed performance into the MHz region.
So we will have to live with electrolytics, and we have to realize that they are in no way perfect. Lately though they have been bettered a lot in regard to ESR and other parameters. Panasonic and Sanyo seems to have been the pioneers in this regard, but I do not find them as easy to use and suitable for general audio purposes as I do the Silmics, even in spite of their much better data.
So caps are IMHO a far from perfect component more or less nessecary for audio design.
The documentation and theory of operation of these caps can be found here:
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors for audio applications - Features of the SILMIC series | ELNA
Elna has for many years tried hard to describe the sonic impact of different ingredients in elcaps. You can read about there experiences here:
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors for audio applications | ELNA
I´ve never seen any manufacturer as thorough doing this as Elna, but they are also the main cap supplier for both Sony, Denon, Pioneer amongst a lot of others.
So they kind of specialized in electrolytic capacitors for audio.
To me they are very well sounding, they might not be the ones capable of the largest ripple, but sound seems to have been the main issue.
Also one can experience oneself, that the discription of the sonic footprint of the caps made by Elna is quite true, when it comes to real world applications.
When using electrolytics in a circuit design, one must realize that they sound different. In my experience the Silmics are the best ones to use around most op-amps, their intrinsic sonic footprint matches IMHO very good with these components. Mostly this is excactly what they are used for, and I really do understand why. I think this has something to do with both the circuits PSRR, when very high, it seems as if the sonic footprint of the cap has a small but very positive influence on sound quality. And maybe also the ESR of the cap and/or its linearity.
However in discrete designs with low PSRR, almost any sonic footprint regardless how positive, pretty and smoothing it might seem elsewhere, pretty fast becomes an unwanted sonic feature.
I´ve tried this many times, and IMHO in high fidelity discrete design, there is no such thing as good electrolytic capacitors. They are all more or less degrading sound quality, but in different strengths and in different ways.
Now we cannot really avoid using electrolytics, but one can give it a try to minimize values and eventually replace them with film capacitors if possible.
IMHO lightning fast discrete regulators, hardly in need for any decoupling, do sound much more uncoloured than generously decoupled ones. Thus shunt regulators suddently seems very attractive for low power circuits, but beware, they run very HOT.
Very fast series regulators can also sometimes be used with film decoupling alone, if used for low power analog purposes.
IC regulators cannot be used without electrolytics, as they are not very fast, most of them gradually looses performance @ 1KHz and upwards. In contrast shunts can be done completely without decoupling and with unsurpassed performance into the MHz region.
So we will have to live with electrolytics, and we have to realize that they are in no way perfect. Lately though they have been bettered a lot in regard to ESR and other parameters. Panasonic and Sanyo seems to have been the pioneers in this regard, but I do not find them as easy to use and suitable for general audio purposes as I do the Silmics, even in spite of their much better data.
So caps are IMHO a far from perfect component more or less nessecary for audio design.
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I just ordered some of these (SimilacII's) the other day to replace output caps in a Krell CD player. I'll give feedback when they burn in 100 hrs. Also I got in a Denon 5910 DVD /Super audio player & every cap in power supply & output section has a Similac II bypassed by a polypropolene.. This is a highly regarded player so that should say something about the similacs.
I just ordered some of those (SILMIC-II) and using them to bypass the cathode resistor in a phono preamp.
Initial results are not only is the top end better due to the non-inductive packing, but the bottom end is superior to the point I had to change a coupling cap to chop the subsonics
Cheers!
Initial results are not only is the top end better due to the non-inductive packing, but the bottom end is superior to the point I had to change a coupling cap to chop the subsonics
Cheers!
the bottom end is superior to the point I had to change a coupling cap to chop the subsonics
Some capacitor models for audio from Rubycon and ELNA like that one from the follow weblink
http://www.musicaldesign.com/images/100_16FK.jpg
may provide some trouble
I have observed by repair service of some audio devices (mainly compact disc players of the higher price class), that this kind of capacitors leak out.
The spilled liquid on the PCB top looks like the already dried solder residues and therefore it is very difficult to make pictures (photos).
Unfortunately, over time the PCB conductors and other components in the environment through oxydation strongly attacked.
From others I have heard the same very unpleasant problems. (Google keyword: bad caps - search by images)
Because the electrolytic liquid may be toxic (and very strong smell of rotten fish) that is really not funny to perform a thorough cleaning of the PCB.
If I have more background information about the exactly reasons for this, I will start a new thread.
Therefore don't broke following rule in generall:
Never the use of electrolytic capacitor versions offered as a "Special Made for Audio" !!!
Neither for repair and modification service and never for new designs !!!
Very bad experience I have with this type of capacitor:
"T-Network - the world's Best Audio Electrolytic Capacitor" about
http://www.dnm.co.uk/capacitors.html
At new condition good results (but already bader than a computer grade version and screw terminals), but after relatively short using aprox 1 year bad results (and the winding is loose in the cylindrical enclosure).
For filter capacitors in power amplifiers (especially diy) my favorite models are the follow
http://www.ftcap.de/downloads/elektrolyt/datenblaetter_2009/GW2009.PDF
from http://www.ftcap.de/seiten/en/home/home.php
Check also out the websites of the follow brands and ask about your individual wished versions, normally made for military, industry and aerospace:
WIMA - Kondensatoren für die Elektronik
Arcotronics Group - Home
Evox Rifa
Then you will automatically receive the best possible audio quality, because it isn't design only for hifi stuff by consumer.
If money is no object, would be the best ever available capacitors the follow types for power supplies in power amplifiers
http://www.powersmartsystems.ru/files/icar/lnk/LNK-P5X.pdf
and the pdf attachement from post#2 about
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ter-reference-amplifier-schematic-wanted.html
Unfortunately I haven't check the enhacement by such values of foil capacitance. But a bypass of approximately 600uF to the existing types i have tested. This provide a large enhancement in sonic transmission, independend of the amp topology.
Unfortunately one pieces of 8000uF MKP cap is more expensive than the most complete audio power amplifier. Therefore even in the most expensivest amplifiers of the world like Ultrasound you don't find such capacitors.
http://www.musicaldesign.com/images/100_16FK.jpg
may provide some trouble
I have observed by repair service of some audio devices (mainly compact disc players of the higher price class), that this kind of capacitors leak out.
The spilled liquid on the PCB top looks like the already dried solder residues and therefore it is very difficult to make pictures (photos).
Unfortunately, over time the PCB conductors and other components in the environment through oxydation strongly attacked.
From others I have heard the same very unpleasant problems. (Google keyword: bad caps - search by images)
Because the electrolytic liquid may be toxic (and very strong smell of rotten fish) that is really not funny to perform a thorough cleaning of the PCB.
If I have more background information about the exactly reasons for this, I will start a new thread.
Therefore don't broke following rule in generall:
Never the use of electrolytic capacitor versions offered as a "Special Made for Audio" !!!
Neither for repair and modification service and never for new designs !!!
Very bad experience I have with this type of capacitor:
"T-Network - the world's Best Audio Electrolytic Capacitor" about
http://www.dnm.co.uk/capacitors.html
At new condition good results (but already bader than a computer grade version and screw terminals), but after relatively short using aprox 1 year bad results (and the winding is loose in the cylindrical enclosure).
For filter capacitors in power amplifiers (especially diy) my favorite models are the follow
http://www.ftcap.de/downloads/elektrolyt/datenblaetter_2009/GW2009.PDF
from http://www.ftcap.de/seiten/en/home/home.php
Check also out the websites of the follow brands and ask about your individual wished versions, normally made for military, industry and aerospace:
WIMA - Kondensatoren für die Elektronik
Arcotronics Group - Home
Evox Rifa
Then you will automatically receive the best possible audio quality, because it isn't design only for hifi stuff by consumer.
If money is no object, would be the best ever available capacitors the follow types for power supplies in power amplifiers
http://www.powersmartsystems.ru/files/icar/lnk/LNK-P5X.pdf
and the pdf attachement from post#2 about
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ter-reference-amplifier-schematic-wanted.html
Unfortunately I haven't check the enhacement by such values of foil capacitance. But a bypass of approximately 600uF to the existing types i have tested. This provide a large enhancement in sonic transmission, independend of the amp topology.
Unfortunately one pieces of 8000uF MKP cap is more expensive than the most complete audio power amplifier. Therefore even in the most expensivest amplifiers of the world like Ultrasound you don't find such capacitors.
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