best, cost no object, sound card

[cowanrg]

Re: lynx 2B , X-Meridian, et al sound cards.

I am very sure these all sound quite nice, unless installed in an inexpensive WinPC computer. Again, "... 4) Because the computer box is a very dirty, noisy electronic environment, the sound "card" should not be a card at all, but an external device, separated by some distance from the computer interior ... unless the "no cost" criteria includes the computer as well. ..."

Now I can't speak to the specifics of the above manufacturers' efforts to clean up PC switching power supplies, but I would bet a great deal of effort is involved. However these PCI plugin cards can not come close to an external DAC device, with or without optical isolation. I have yet to see a plugin sound card that didn't have a serious problem with the PC's noisy, dirty supply and the high frequency processor switching noise and harmonics ... you can easily see the switching noise components on a cheap 'scope and quite often hear it. Even external devices require significant effort to reduce this noise, simple separation distance seldom being enough ...

have you ever tried it? i gave this same argument before i tried it. this blew away any other external dac i have used. try it and amaze yourself. even the $200 M-audio blew away the processor and dac in my rotel 1098 (a $3k processor), and this is one of the best sources ive heard. all we hear about is how noisy and nasty pc's are. well, give it a shot, you might realize its not nearly as bad as you thought it was. ive never heard a noise floor as quiet as with my current system.

i also dont use any hard drives in the system (all flash drives for OS), and music is stored on a server in another room, and there isnt a single fan in the computer. there is still a computer power supply, but it seems to be very quiet (passive, no fans), so maybe there is less noise from that.

 

[AKN]

Hi Fasteddy,

I have a PC equipped with a cheap PCI Audiphile 2496 and it's dead quiet when it's supposed to, should be so on mac too I think.
I also have delivered two internal Terratec cards for studio use, no problems there either.
That said I have nothing against external cards but it is possible to build/use internal ones also.

 

[FastEddy]

4fun: " I have a PC equipped with a cheap PCI Audiphile 2496 and it's dead quiet when it's supposed to ..."

Yes, and I have seen some very good audio I/O from PCI cards as well ... but the simple act of physically placing the digital to analog conversion components away from the PC's interior does make for a world of difference, generally a better than 10 db reduction in the noise floor. Granted there are very good PCI sound cards and very bad external DACs ... and I have no problem with keeping what works for you and ignoring what may work better in the absence of solid proof ...

M-Audio does a very good job of filtering that noise from their plug in cards as do several other manufacturers. But, M-Audio engineers will freely admit that their external devices are better, even when using the same chips and filters.

 

[mjkempton]

Once again, many thanks to all

Cowanrg, do you have any comments re the Lynx ONE and L22 ?

These are both listed as 2 channel cards. The only significant difference I can see is 24/96 against 24/192 for your L2B.

My jury's out on the whole up/resampling issue, sometimes I hear a difference other times not. My Behringer DAC accepts 96k only so that's one reason to go for the lower sampling rate models. Again I do no recording. Though I may get round to archiving 2000+ vinyl discs at some point

Re internal/external I can only say that with my current setup I hear no noise with 98dB speakers. I had the SB Audigy external before the XFi, not the greatest of course but I heard no noise increase or decrease going to the XFi.

TIA much

 

[weissi]

I'd go for a ADAT PCI controller and external ADAT AD/DA
and mod that AD/DA

Cheers

 

[rfbrw]

I'd go for a ADAT PCI controller and external ADAT AD/DA
and mod that AD/DA

Cheers

ADAT only soundcards are more expensive than one would think considering how little is involved. The 24/48 no S/Mux Marian Marc A for example is 149 Euros. Might as well get the excellent E-Mu 1212 for the same price. ADAT up to 192k and first rate analogue i/o.

 

[AKN]

Hi,

FastEddy,
External "pro" sound cards will most likely be equipped with internal SMPS (ok, a very small power SMPS but in closer approximately) in order to provide +/- rails and at the same time be sourced from firewire/usb power. There is of course the possibility to use external power but i bet they are single rail supplies (SMPS) feeding the same path as USB/firewire power delivers.
Where else does 48V phantom power come from?
I also think the performance of internal cards have been proved several times here before, if not by all sound card meauserments shown.

I think a very god external DAC would be the best solution, but as mentioned others, that is not self evident apparently.

 

[planet10]

24/96 against 24/192

I'd consider 192 to be a minimum to approach analog... if you get the lower rate one to match the Beringer it would need to get changed out when you upgrade to a DXO with higher sampling.

dave

 

[FastEddy]

" ... one reason to go for the lower sampling rate models. Again I do no recording. ..."

Go for the higher sampling rates, always, as they can "back peddle" to the lower rates but the lower sampling rate devices do not go higher ... especially if you want to play the really fat MP3 files which can be 24 bit/192k or even higher. (FYI: http://www.viaarena.com/default.aspx?PageID=5&ArticleID=38&P=2 )

I know many say they don't want to record through their DAC / ADC ... but you do rip don't you? If so, how are you gonna rip a vinyl record or a decent analog tape? ... With a bi-directional DAC/ADC, you can rip and roar

" ... There is of course the possibility to use external power but i bet they are single rail supplies (SMPS) feeding the same path as USB/firewire power delivers. ..."

Yes, I thought so as well for the longest time, then I discovered the Echo Digital AudioFire stuff which comes with linear wall warts, not SMPS. Interestingly when connected with both external power and the power from the computer data cable, the external PS acts to reduce the noise on the data cable ... (I have not figured out quite how they do that but it is a neat trick.)

Also the act of feeding switching power down a long coaxial cable (USB, FireWire or whatever) does reduce a whole lot of the SMPS noise, the cable being (hopefully) designed to match the impedence of the data = FireWire has an outer current carrying shield [@ 0 VDC] and dual twisted pairs, each with a current carrying shield [@ +12 VDC], matched for 400 Mbps data, but not a good match for the much lower frequency noise of the computers' switching supply.

planet10: " ... I'd consider 192 to be a minimum to approach analog ..."

Likewise ...

 

[cowanrg]

just so we have a good grounding point here, who in this discussion actually OWNS any of the products they are discussing? can we isolate those who are speaking from experience (you actually have LIVED with it for a long time), and those who are just speaking of isolated demos, or theory.

personally, ive owned an m-audio, own a lynx, and have owned many high end pieces that arent computer related.

 

[Daveis]

Would be interested in a comparison of RME (which I own) versus Lynx (which I've been curious about).

Some of the best sound I've heard has been from my RME card into a Benchmark DAC1. I suspect Lynx analog out would be better, but no one has stepped forward and said anything like that.

 

[ssmith]

just so we have a good grounding point here, who in this discussion actually OWNS any of the products they are discussing? can we isolate those who are speaking from experience (you actually have LIVED with it for a long time), and those who are just speaking of isolated demos, or theory.
personally, ive owned an m-audio, own a lynx, and have owned many high end pieces that arent computer related.

I have owned (in order):

M-Audio Sonica USB
M-Audio Audiophile USB
EMU 1212
Benchmark DAC1 (early model)
DDDac MKII (USB only)

Out of all the above I prefer the DDDac, although it was a close call between it and the Benchmark (which I no longer own -- and I've read the later model Benchmarks are better, with the latest having a useful USB input). With some modifications, the EMU 1212 sounded excellent too. The M-Audio models I didn't like, either for SPDIF or analogue out.

I've never heard a Lynx or an RME, sadly.

Still have some mods ahead to try for the DDDac, after which I think I'll try a 24/96-192 project.

There is a lot of absolutes spewed out on forums -- a 24bit is automatically better than 16bit, external is better that internal, coax is better than toslink..... in my limited experience it's not so simple, with system synergy playing a big role in what sounds 'best'. YMMV.

 

[alleycat]

I don't know about external cards, but I've got an internal PCI card, an M-Audio Revolution 5.1 which I'm very happy with. However, when there's no music playing and I turn the amp up to full volume (much louder than I ever do in practice) and put my ear next to the speaker, I can hear some feint electronic noises in the background. The noises change when I move the mouse etc. Having said that, there is no way I can hear any of this when there is a track playing. Probably not good enough for the purists though...

 

[mjkempton]

Ok, maybe this should have been asked earlier but, given that I only ever use the the digital output on the soundcard to the Behringer DAC, are the differences with all these cards noticeable ?

Am I missing something ?

Or, if the analogue out on the better cards are that good is it worth running that way ?

TIA

 

[zigo3]

Yes, I thought so as well for the longest time, then I discovered the Echo Digital AudioFire stuff

It's an interesting stuff.
Please, do you know what DAC and ADC mount?
What about reclock, it reclocks signal? Is possible configure it like master or slave?

thankyou