After a ton of reading both here and on various DIY speaker building sites I have come to the conclusion that my lofty plans for speakers may just be a little too lofty.
So I am here to ask you experienced people what a suggested speaker size would be for my situation....
Our primary listening area is our lounge room. It is 5.45m long (17' 11") x 3.7m (12' 1 1/2"). In one long wall is a large window, in the other a door way 1.98m from one end. Currently the TV and audio gear is on the long wall with the window with our seating on the opposite long wall.
The speakers I am hoping to build will suit music and movies. Music will be fed from both a multimedia centre (XBMC) using FLAC rips and CD's via a Denon DVD player. Movies will also come from XBMC and DVD's. Our TV is only a 68cm analog and my current amp is one of the cheapo no name brand 100W p/c AV systems, 7.1 capable.
I am looking at budget speakers along the lines of the ZaphAudio site, nothing fancy or ambitious for my entry into DIY. I would need a project that not only gives what drivers and tweeters to use but also crossover info, I am in no way setup for designing my own. I am also looking at building a Gainsclone amp once my Paypal balance recovers.
Based on the info above, can anyone suggest what direction I should be taking to end up with a nice sounding set with the possibility of expanding in the future to a complete surround package.
Any suggestions welcome.
Cheers
Bruce
So I am here to ask you experienced people what a suggested speaker size would be for my situation....
Our primary listening area is our lounge room. It is 5.45m long (17' 11") x 3.7m (12' 1 1/2"). In one long wall is a large window, in the other a door way 1.98m from one end. Currently the TV and audio gear is on the long wall with the window with our seating on the opposite long wall.
The speakers I am hoping to build will suit music and movies. Music will be fed from both a multimedia centre (XBMC) using FLAC rips and CD's via a Denon DVD player. Movies will also come from XBMC and DVD's. Our TV is only a 68cm analog and my current amp is one of the cheapo no name brand 100W p/c AV systems, 7.1 capable.
I am looking at budget speakers along the lines of the ZaphAudio site, nothing fancy or ambitious for my entry into DIY. I would need a project that not only gives what drivers and tweeters to use but also crossover info, I am in no way setup for designing my own. I am also looking at building a Gainsclone amp once my Paypal balance recovers.
Based on the info above, can anyone suggest what direction I should be taking to end up with a nice sounding set with the possibility of expanding in the future to a complete surround package.
Any suggestions welcome.
Cheers
Bruce
Perhaps the best person to direct this question to is the other half 
(I'm serious!). Otherwise the question is a bit like how long is a peice of string If you get some guidelines, you could then ask what can I build which is no larger than X.
I have a similar sized living area, and my plan is to have 75L woofer cabinets with 10" drivers (currently they are 70L) with MTM's (approx 12L) on top of them.. I'm lucky in that I had some of the ugliest 3 way speakers (said 70L boxes) in history before I met my other half and she has been very tolerant of them , so anything new I build should be an improvement. What I am doing a lot of people would shudder at! even some of the other diyers I imagine, not just better halves!!
So ask the person it will matter most to (other than your good self), maybe do some bargaining and then come back and ask again as I suspect you will get a VERY big difference of oppinion of what is realistic!
BTW what was your lofty plan??
Tony.
(I'm serious!). Otherwise the question is a bit like how long is a peice of string If you get some guidelines, you could then ask what can I build which is no larger than X. I have a similar sized living area, and my plan is to have 75L woofer cabinets with 10" drivers (currently they are 70L) with MTM's (approx 12L) on top of them.. I'm lucky in that I had some of the ugliest 3 way speakers (said 70L boxes) in history before I met my other half and she has been very tolerant of them , so anything new I build should be an improvement. What I am doing a lot of people would shudder at! even some of the other diyers I imagine, not just better halves!!
So ask the person it will matter most to (other than your good self), maybe do some bargaining and then come back and ask again as I suspect you will get a VERY big difference of oppinion of what is realistic!
BTW what was your lofty plan??
Tony.
Definitely ask. Show her pictures as well. But include something to show scale. Ideally take a phote of where they are to go and paste pictures of the suggested speakers to scale on them.
You may be surprised.
Finish and colour also makes a big difference to acceptability. My wife likes ours with no grill cloth now, something I did not expect when I built them. Also brown boxes may be considered boring, and something more exotic found acceptable.
Also make a full size cardboard model (or three) in the approximate colour so she can get used to them before making a final decision
You may be surprised.
Finish and colour also makes a big difference to acceptability. My wife likes ours with no grill cloth now, something I did not expect when I built them. Also brown boxes may be considered boring, and something more exotic found acceptable.
Also make a full size cardboard model (or three) in the approximate colour so she can get used to them before making a final decision
! 18 inch speakers have good bass; 8 inch speakers have good WAF!
Show her a picture of the 18s and then show her the 12s you really want, WAF is a very serious and much under-rated audio quality factor I have neglected once too often.
Seriously some good 2-ways using at least a 6inch woofer times five, with a couple of smallish 12inch subs cleverly hidden as coffee tables or pot-plant stands.
I must point out that SWMBO is very tolerant and allows me to have 9 sub-woofers in our lounge room, only one of which is a 15
Show her a picture of the 18s and then show her the 12s you really want, WAF is a very serious and much under-rated audio quality factor I have neglected once too often.
Seriously some good 2-ways using at least a 6inch woofer times five, with a couple of smallish 12inch subs cleverly hidden as coffee tables or pot-plant stands.
I must point out that SWMBO is very tolerant and allows me to have 9 sub-woofers in our lounge room, only one of which is a 15
Thanks guys....
Tony: My lofty plans were to build a set of these: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Hi-Vi-3-Way-Tower/ including the center, sub and surrounds (unpublished). I bought the plans but have had second thoughts. The mains are 49 1/2" tall, 12" wide and the center is almost 4' wide (!). Currently the top of our TV sits at 43" and will maybe be going a little higher when I build the new TV stand / gear rack.
I just had a chat to my lovely wife and she basically said "you know what you want.... but...." After that it was something about not being too big "after all, you know how much room we have in here..." As for colour, we have timber bookcases in a darkish stain that she likes. Black is out, she hates black and besides, it is not a good colour in our house with 2 kids under 12 plus 3 dogs - dust is a factor bigtime!
I explained to her that I am after some speakers that make the music sound like it should - mains, maybe a sub (or two or three) plus possibly rears and a center at a later date for movies. When my B&W DM220's were working I loved the sound (from what I can remember) when they were on the stands that came with them. Even the KEF C10's sounded OK (again from memory) - both of these were via my Denon receiver and Yamaha amp. These days I have the cheapo A/V amp and the woofers and tweeter out of the Accusound kit I bought in the old DM220 boxes - everything is flat, drab and basically horrible.
Speaking of the Accousound kit, Rach did ask about that. I explained I *could* build those but I did not know if they would be as good as I could get from a good DIY project, seeing as I have absolutely no info on the driver/tweeter/crossover specs AND have no definitive info on the proper cabinets.
rjb: I'll show her a few representative sets I know of and get her opinion. I do like the idea of building cardboard mockups, might try that with a few and see what she thinks!
moondog55: Rach likes her music too but I don't think she has ever heard a "real" set of speakers, I firmly believe she will be blown away by something that is designed to work correctly. I love the idea of subs as plant stands/coffee tables!
As for what I am after, well something along the lines of these initially (just wish they were floor standers) http://zaphaudio.com/ZMV5.html - especially for the cost side of things - or these http://zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html or even something like these: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/LBS.html. I have also looked at Troels Gravesen's site but his are a little expensive for me at the moment. Of course with any of these it is a case of locating the parts in Australia at a reasonable cost.
Anyway, off to do a little more research and come up with some more examples for Rach. I would love to get a good set of speakers with the little Gainsclone running just to show her
Cheers
Bruce
Tony: My lofty plans were to build a set of these: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Hi-Vi-3-Way-Tower/ including the center, sub and surrounds (unpublished). I bought the plans but have had second thoughts. The mains are 49 1/2" tall, 12" wide and the center is almost 4' wide (!). Currently the top of our TV sits at 43" and will maybe be going a little higher when I build the new TV stand / gear rack.
I just had a chat to my lovely wife and she basically said "you know what you want.... but...." After that it was something about not being too big "after all, you know how much room we have in here..." As for colour, we have timber bookcases in a darkish stain that she likes. Black is out, she hates black and besides, it is not a good colour in our house with 2 kids under 12 plus 3 dogs - dust is a factor bigtime!
I explained to her that I am after some speakers that make the music sound like it should - mains, maybe a sub (or two or three
) plus possibly rears and a center at a later date for movies. When my B&W DM220's were working I loved the sound (from what I can remember) when they were on the stands that came with them. Even the KEF C10's sounded OK (again from memory) - both of these were via my Denon receiver and Yamaha amp. These days I have the cheapo A/V amp and the woofers and tweeter out of the Accusound kit I bought in the old DM220 boxes - everything is flat, drab and basically horrible.Speaking of the Accousound kit, Rach did ask about that. I explained I *could* build those but I did not know if they would be as good as I could get from a good DIY project, seeing as I have absolutely no info on the driver/tweeter/crossover specs AND have no definitive info on the proper cabinets.
rjb: I'll show her a few representative sets I know of and get her opinion. I do like the idea of building cardboard mockups, might try that with a few and see what she thinks!
moondog55: Rach likes her music too but I don't think she has ever heard a "real" set of speakers, I firmly believe she will be blown away by something that is designed to work correctly. I love the idea of subs as plant stands/coffee tables!
As for what I am after, well something along the lines of these initially (just wish they were floor standers) http://zaphaudio.com/ZMV5.html - especially for the cost side of things - or these http://zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html or even something like these: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/LBS.html. I have also looked at Troels Gravesen's site but his are a little expensive for me at the moment. Of course with any of these it is a case of locating the parts in Australia at a reasonable cost.
Anyway, off to do a little more research and come up with some more examples for Rach. I would love to get a good set of speakers with the little Gainsclone running just to show her
Cheers
Bruce
Hi,
what about building a small footprint tower speaker?
Use two 8ohm 90dB/W/m drivers (bass/mid & treble) each with a passive crossover fed from a 60W into 8ohm chipamp amplifier.
The treble could be a fabric dome 1inch driver and the bass/mid could be a paper cone 6inch driver, that will work as a reflex loaded (ported) speaker of about 20litres (1200mm tall by 140mm deep by 120mm wide - internal dimensions)
what about building a small footprint tower speaker?
Use two 8ohm 90dB/W/m drivers (bass/mid & treble) each with a passive crossover fed from a 60W into 8ohm chipamp amplifier.
The treble could be a fabric dome 1inch driver and the bass/mid could be a paper cone 6inch driver, that will work as a reflex loaded (ported) speaker of about 20litres (1200mm tall by 140mm deep by 120mm wide - internal dimensions)
Hi Andrew
Thanks for your suggestion but, and I do not want to seem ungrateful for your post, unless there is a "design" on the web somewhere that suggests drivers, tweeters, cabinet design plus a crossover design with components, I can't use your suggestions. I am nowhere near the level of DIY required to successfully build speakers matching those things. They do sound like a good choice though.
As for the chipamp, I plan to start with one from AudioSector first to wet my feet in amp construction......
Cheers
Bruce
Thanks for your suggestion but, and I do not want to seem ungrateful for your post, unless there is a "design" on the web somewhere that suggests drivers, tweeters, cabinet design plus a crossover design with components, I can't use your suggestions. I am nowhere near the level of DIY required to successfully build speakers matching those things. They do sound like a good choice though.
As for the chipamp, I plan to start with one from AudioSector first to wet my feet in amp construction......
Cheers
Bruce
Get some hot water tank boxes and suggest this is the smallest size that will work in your environment. When she balks, scale it down a bit. When she still balks scale it down a little more. You'll still end up with a nice big set of speakers by the time she gives in. Don't be afarid to remind her how many times you have compromised in going that "small"
Cheers.
Cheers.
Just do it slowly!
I introduced something different (also fast to build if you have a router):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zigmahornet/zigmahornet.html
Plans: http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/zigmahornet-plan.gif
Ok, bass is not the lowest around, but from 4" wharfedales, not too shabby either.
Once SOH got used to the look, I built a second pair with a cowl to accomodate 8" drivers...better
Then I started complaining about what we were missing....
So now I've made a pair of 120L cabs for 10" Tannoys.....Bliss.
As I said do it slowly!
I introduced something different (also fast to build if you have a router):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zigmahornet/zigmahornet.html
Plans: http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/zigmahornet-plan.gif
Ok, bass is not the lowest around, but from 4" wharfedales, not too shabby either.
Once SOH got used to the look, I built a second pair with a cowl to accomodate 8" drivers...better
Then I started complaining about what we were missing....
So now I've made a pair of 120L cabs for 10" Tannoys.....Bliss.
As I said do it slowly
!
These are a really, really good deal - and quite small, too.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_38_436&products_id=8644
$390 includes all drivers and xover components.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_38_436&products_id=8644
$390 includes all drivers and xover components.
Cal: Rach actually likes the proposed size of the Accusound kit I have - somewhere between 900 and 1100mm so I don't need to go to those lengths Something to keep in mind for the future though!
algoart: Thanks for your input, interesting plan to slowly increase size I am not a fan of single drivers though but thanks for the link....
Moondog55: I just had a refresher on that thread and liked some of what I saw. I would have liked to have seen what rabbitz had in the wiki but it seems to be off line at the moment. That said, I do like the look and size of the M5 kit from LoudSpeakerKits - if I could find something like that that would fit into a budget build I would be happy! I nice WMT or MTM or even a WMTM or similar would be cool - if only I had better design skills I wouldn't have to find an example on the web
Spasticteapot: Yup, nice kit but as Moondog55 mentioned, exchange rate and postage would kill the "budget" monicker.
I think the first thing I need to do is find drivers and tweeters within my price range then go off an find someone who has used them. The only "set" criteria I have decided on is they should be floorstanders. In my model railroading speak that is a "given" whereas the variables are the "druthers"
I'll keep cruising the web to see what I can find, if anyone has other DIY sites not already listed, I sure would appreciate a link or 3.
I also wandered off on the sub path for some reason and have sort of decided that I would like an unpowered one initially - I could use my Yamaha M35 power amp to run it (them). While not ideal, I wonder what I could build with 4 8" woofers I was just given as part of a car part exchange deal..... they have an "fc" of 36.070Hz and a "vas" of 67.40mM so are not that ideal for a sub but it would give me an idea of what they add....maybe
Anyway, thanks everyone for their time....
Cheers
Bruce
Something to keep in mind for the future though!algoart: Thanks for your input, interesting plan to slowly increase size
I am not a fan of single drivers though but thanks for the link....Moondog55: I just had a refresher on that thread and liked some of what I saw. I would have liked to have seen what rabbitz had in the wiki but it seems to be off line at the moment. That said, I do like the look and size of the M5 kit from LoudSpeakerKits - if I could find something like that that would fit into a budget build I would be happy! I nice WMT or MTM or even a WMTM or similar would be cool - if only I had better design skills I wouldn't have to find an example on the web
Spasticteapot: Yup, nice kit but as Moondog55 mentioned, exchange rate and postage would kill the "budget" monicker.
I think the first thing I need to do is find drivers and tweeters within my price range then go off an find someone who has used them. The only "set" criteria I have decided on is they should be floorstanders. In my model railroading speak that is a "given" whereas the variables are the "druthers"
I'll keep cruising the web to see what I can find, if anyone has other DIY sites not already listed, I sure would appreciate a link or 3.
I also wandered off on the sub path for some reason and have sort of decided that I would like an unpowered one initially - I could use my Yamaha M35 power amp to run it (them). While not ideal, I wonder what I could build with 4 8" woofers I was just given as part of a car part exchange deal..... they have an "fc" of 36.070Hz and a "vas" of 67.40mM so are not that ideal for a sub but it would give me an idea of what they add....maybe
Anyway, thanks everyone for their time....
Cheers
Bruce
The thread speaker will be MUCH better than the M-5, and P13s are more expensive than Ralphs current price, to equal the SPL I think you would need 2 * P13s per speaker and they would have less bass.
Nothing wrong with the M-5, just a personal opinion on the combination of drivers in the thread, I'm saving for a set myself
Nothing wrong with the M-5, just a personal opinion on the combination of drivers in the thread, I'm saving for a set myself
Hi Bruce, The mains from your lofty plan don't look too bad at all to me... footprint wise they don't take up too much space and the height is probably not getting too imposing. a 4' wide Centre though now that is starting to sound extreme to me Good to that you already have a baseline as to what is acceptable
I'm not sure if the "Tony", badman is referring to is me or not (very flattered if he was) but unfortunately the only "proven" design I have is proven to be far from optimal (and ugly to boot). The work in progress is as yet unproven, and would more than likely be out of the price range..... Drivers alone close to $1500AU and you would probably have trouble getting the vifa m26wr-09-08's as they have been discontinued.
Once I have finished the MTM's morel MW-144 and Morel DMS37's They could be matched with any "sub" capable of going up to 200Hz but if I were to start again (and still go with morel) I'd probably choose one of their newer drivers as the basket design seems much improved. Then again once I've finished, perhaps not. I still remember how good the prototype (which basically only had a single cap on the tweeter) sounded, just need to keep plugging away and get them finished
Tony.
Good to that you already have a baseline as to what is acceptable I'm not sure if the "Tony", badman is referring to is me or not (very flattered if he was) but unfortunately the only "proven" design I have is proven to be far from optimal (and ugly to boot). The work in progress is as yet unproven, and would more than likely be out of the price range..... Drivers alone close to $1500AU and you would probably have trouble getting the vifa m26wr-09-08's as they have been discontinued.
Once I have finished the MTM's morel MW-144 and Morel DMS37's They could be matched with any "sub" capable of going up to 200Hz but if I were to start again (and still go with morel) I'd probably choose one of their newer drivers as the basket design seems much improved. Then again once I've finished, perhaps not. I still remember how good the prototype (which basically only had a single cap on the tweeter) sounded, just need to keep plugging away and get them finished
Tony.
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Greets!
To begin, proper HIFI and HT apps have ~completely different requirements, so for best performance you need two completely separate systems in completely differently designed rooms.
Since this isn't an option for most of us, it boils down to what combination of trade-offs one is willing to live with.
With kids, I imagine that HT would take precedent over a music oriented system and that much of it's technical requirements WRT placement, directivity control and peak SPL requirements would be sacrificed for small size/low cost. From this POV though, it's more oriented to current HIFI apps than HT.
Regardless, at a glance, a sub/sat system where the mains/surrounds are sealed MTMs with at least an 80 Hz F3 and > ~88 dB/m mid-band sensitivity seems the minimum for all but the smallest rooms. Then with the receiver's bass management set to 'small', the sub system would be at least three small sealed cabs of at least 90 dB/m sensitivity, one each for the L, C, R spread around the room to meet the LFE channel's 10 dB minimum increase at low distortion and smooth out their in-room response somewhat.
Technically, speaker placement is a function of screen width and source format which sets the viewing distance/area: http://www.thx.com/home/setup/speakers/index.html
.......and from this one we see that for even a worst case scenario, your layout is either at the max recommended viewing distance or beyond and so far away that if it has a >480i resolution, it's a waste of resolution/$$$: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
I guess the first thing to decide is:
1) Design based on a future, larger/higher resolution TV or just a minimal 'make do' HT system?
2) Design for music WRT the L-R mains and tack on additional HT channels as the budget permits with the understanding that its performance will be severely compromised if L-R mains can't provide an above average phantom center across the viewing area?
3) Some combination of the above? If so, what?
I started this when you initially posted, but time slips away and now after browsing the ensuing responses I'm still not sure what your plan/budget/performance goals are other than wanting to 'have your cake and eat it too', like the rest of us.
GM
To begin, proper HIFI and HT apps have ~completely different requirements, so for best performance you need two completely separate systems in completely differently designed rooms.
Since this isn't an option for most of us, it boils down to what combination of trade-offs one is willing to live with.
With kids, I imagine that HT would take precedent over a music oriented system and that much of it's technical requirements WRT placement, directivity control and peak SPL requirements would be sacrificed for small size/low cost. From this POV though, it's more oriented to current HIFI apps than HT.
Regardless, at a glance, a sub/sat system where the mains/surrounds are sealed MTMs with at least an 80 Hz F3 and > ~88 dB/m mid-band sensitivity seems the minimum for all but the smallest rooms. Then with the receiver's bass management set to 'small', the sub system would be at least three small sealed cabs of at least 90 dB/m sensitivity, one each for the L, C, R spread around the room to meet the LFE channel's 10 dB minimum increase at low distortion and smooth out their in-room response somewhat.
Technically, speaker placement is a function of screen width and source format which sets the viewing distance/area: http://www.thx.com/home/setup/speakers/index.html
.......and from this one we see that for even a worst case scenario, your layout is either at the max recommended viewing distance or beyond and so far away that if it has a >480i resolution, it's a waste of resolution/$$$: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
I guess the first thing to decide is:
1) Design based on a future, larger/higher resolution TV or just a minimal 'make do' HT system?
2) Design for music WRT the L-R mains and tack on additional HT channels as the budget permits with the understanding that its performance will be severely compromised if L-R mains can't provide an above average phantom center across the viewing area?
3) Some combination of the above? If so, what?
I started this when you initially posted, but time slips away and now after browsing the ensuing responses I'm still not sure what your plan/budget/performance goals are other than wanting to 'have your cake and eat it too', like the rest of us.
GM
Racedirector,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9840
http://www.dmitrynizh.com/labaffles.htm
Sorry if I'm being Mr. Quirky
Just another thought on easy build/budget speakers, have you looked into line arrays?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9840
http://www.dmitrynizh.com/labaffles.htm
Sorry if I'm being Mr. Quirky
You might consider the Marcato's. They are a transmission line MTM using some very good drivers, the Usher 8945P and the B&G neo3pdr planar tweeter. The designer and builder is Paul Kittinger. I did the crossover design for him. The drivers and crossover parts cost a little more than $600 US/pair. I'm not sure if you can get these drivers down under or not.
They were considered by some, at the InDIYana DIY event in April to be a rival to the Salk Veracity HT2-TL's which sell for bout $4000/pair and were also at the event, played back to back to the Marcatos.
One benefit in your case is that they are designed and voiced to be placed with only about 6" of clearance behind the speakers, which could be a big advantage for placement in a small room.
You can get a write up on them at this link:http://www.box.net/shared/39uey2h19l
Here is what Paul's build of them looks like:
They were considered by some, at the InDIYana DIY event in April to be a rival to the Salk Veracity HT2-TL's which sell for bout $4000/pair and were also at the event, played back to back to the Marcatos.
One benefit in your case is that they are designed and voiced to be placed with only about 6" of clearance behind the speakers, which could be a big advantage for placement in a small room.
You can get a write up on them at this link:http://www.box.net/shared/39uey2h19l
Here is what Paul's build of them looks like:
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