troystg said:
More than a pre.
Acoustic instruments have body that sounds differently on different loudness; wooden axes' sounding bodies are speakers and their cabinets with amps in the middle. Without amps and cabs wooden axes have no character at all. Consider a bass amp and a speaker as a part of the instrument.
Wavebourn said:
I do not wish to argue or debate.
Only way to get a clean tone is to have clean gear. Systems with a "sound" can not be adjusted for a "clean tone" yet clean gear can be dirtied by as numerous pedal and pre-amps as your heart and wallet can stand.
My "OPINION" stands at starting with a clean system and adding color until you find a pleasing sound via effects and what not.
Others are surely welcome to their opinions also.
I do agree that the system as a whole should be considered and not individual pieces. I just feel that any move from neutral is "coloring" the sound for personal preference. And that should be done as an after experiment since the "sound" that one likes today may not be the sound he likes tomorrow.. Cheaper and easier to change effects and pres' that amps and cabs...
Coloring sound of vibrating wires on a peace of wood and plastic VS of a record made by a recording engineer are very different colorations, I say you this as a musician and a recording engineer. You may enjoy a "clean sound" of violin strings on a wooden axe with electro pickup, while I will enjoy colorations from a body of an instrument made by Stradivari.
What is significant in musical instruments, is dependence of spectrum from loudness, it is the soul of instruments, essence of dynamics and articulation. Sounds of strings on a wooden axe is semi-dead.
However, strings themselves articulate, but it is not the articulation needed for musicians to express feelings. You may simulate some formants by LC or active RC filters, but anyway it is still dead simulation. Earlier electric instruments produced "pure sound", without "any coloration". Just multivibrators under shining metal grill and switches under keyboard. Later filters to simulate formants were added. Did not help much. After that attack/decay were simulated by neon bulbs under keys lighted by wires with high frequency voltage on them. Anyway, instruments sounded dead, and extensive usage of vibrato did not help them.
Most significant improvement was Leslie effect with rotating tweeters, this "coloration" made sound of electric instruments more "alive", more "colored", it turned THE ROOM WITH IT'S ACOUSTIC INTO THE PART OF THE INSTRUMENT. Approximately at the same time semi-acoustic guitars were replaced by wooden axes WITH SOUNDING AMPS AND SPEAKER CABINETS. Instead of vibrating deck that colored sound of strings in dynamics this vibrating part of instrument was PULLED OUTSIDE OF THE GUITAR, but it is still THE PART OF IT. Anyway guitar bodies with magnetic pickups did not add characters like full acoustic bodies did.
So, using Hi-Fi approach for the electric guitar amp is equivalent to TAKING HORSE TAIL HAIR ONLY from STRADIVARI VIOLIN THROWING AWAY THE VIOLIN IN ORDER TO GET BETTER SOUND. (C) Wavebourn
...I don't speak here of modern Hi-Fi approach that relies on perfectization of easy measurable parameters instead of easy audible ones, like strictly aligning strings horizontally in order to tune the instrument, and the whole industry competes who can align strings better, and nobody tune them well because tuning is something subjective and can't be measured by fine optical instruments...
Good luck kids!
What is significant in musical instruments, is dependence of spectrum from loudness, it is the soul of instruments, essence of dynamics and articulation. Sounds of strings on a wooden axe is semi-dead.
However, strings themselves articulate, but it is not the articulation needed for musicians to express feelings. You may simulate some formants by LC or active RC filters, but anyway it is still dead simulation. Earlier electric instruments produced "pure sound", without "any coloration". Just multivibrators under shining metal grill and switches under keyboard. Later filters to simulate formants were added. Did not help much. After that attack/decay were simulated by neon bulbs under keys lighted by wires with high frequency voltage on them. Anyway, instruments sounded dead, and extensive usage of vibrato did not help them.
Most significant improvement was Leslie effect with rotating tweeters, this "coloration" made sound of electric instruments more "alive", more "colored", it turned THE ROOM WITH IT'S ACOUSTIC INTO THE PART OF THE INSTRUMENT. Approximately at the same time semi-acoustic guitars were replaced by wooden axes WITH SOUNDING AMPS AND SPEAKER CABINETS. Instead of vibrating deck that colored sound of strings in dynamics this vibrating part of instrument was PULLED OUTSIDE OF THE GUITAR, but it is still THE PART OF IT. Anyway guitar bodies with magnetic pickups did not add characters like full acoustic bodies did.
So, using Hi-Fi approach for the electric guitar amp is equivalent to TAKING HORSE TAIL HAIR ONLY from STRADIVARI VIOLIN THROWING AWAY THE VIOLIN IN ORDER TO GET BETTER SOUND. (C) Wavebourn
...I don't speak here of modern Hi-Fi approach that relies on perfectization of easy measurable parameters instead of easy audible ones, like strictly aligning strings horizontally in order to tune the instrument, and the whole industry competes who can align strings better, and nobody tune them well because tuning is something subjective and can't be measured by fine optical instruments...
Good luck kids!
Has anyone used an AmpsLab (www.ampslab.com) or Hypex Unit as an amplifier for musical instruments? Seems like a lightweight, clean power solution.
Hello aaron,
I haven't heard of Ampslab but I am considering to build a bass amp using a hypex unit. But since I am not gigging right now I'll probably end up using one of the LM4780's I have around.
On using a class D unit in general, Aguilar uses them in their amps, so it's probably going to work fine. I don't remember the name of the poweramps but I think it was tripath, and I think you can get the modules as some kind of kit.
Best regards,
Jarno.
I haven't heard of Ampslab but I am considering to build a bass amp using a hypex unit. But since I am not gigging right now I'll probably end up using one of the LM4780's I have around.
On using a class D unit in general, Aguilar uses them in their amps, so it's probably going to work fine. I don't remember the name of the poweramps but I think it was tripath, and I think you can get the modules as some kind of kit.
Best regards,
Jarno.
Yes. Tripath (41Hz) and LC modules have been tried in my system. I went back to my Yamaha because it wasn't worth my time to make decent cases etc, and once the PSU is factored, they aren't much lighter or cheaper than the P7000. I have the drivers and wood to build a combo, so might incorporate them there.croat47 said:
A bass guitar is not an electric guitar!!! They are 2 different instruments.
It depends on the sound you're after. Not everyone likes a tube poweramp for bass. Most like a tube pre. Most non-rock bassists use SS poweramps, myself included. I personally hate the sound of tube poweramps for bass, because the the notes loose all their crispness.
-you can't hear what the hell you're playing! But it's all preferance.
Also you should tell SWR, Eden, EBS, Epifani, Glockenklang, Euphonic Audio, GK that their amps suck. I'm sure they'd disagree. Even Ampeg makes some pro SS based heads. (eg SVT Pro4)
Btw as far as solid state goes, there is absolutely no way 100w will stack up againt a drummer unless he plays very light or uses brushes.
Nigel Goodwin said:
Presumably you're just using it as an onstage monitor and have a few k of PA outfront? I can't believe that 120 transistor watts through a 12" speaker is going to sound (or, crucially) feel very exciting from an audience's point of view.
I find 100 valve watts through a 2*15 barely adequate with a guitarist and medium-loud drummer in anything larger than a rehearsal garage.
bremen nacht said:
No, just 'as is' in pubs and small halls - for PA we use a Behringer mixer/amp 400W+400W (but feeding 8 ohm speakers so only 200W+200W) - feeding either a pair of 1x12's or a pair of 1x15's. I DI bass and guitar through the PA, two vocal mikes, and the four remaining channels for mikes on the drums. Essentially the PA is mainly for vocals, but it gives me a little control of the balance - but most of the volume (obviously) comes from the combo's and the drums themselves.
As long as you can compete with the drums, that's really all that's required - I don't have any urgent need to makes peoples ears bleed! - nor the money for big gear, nor any way to transport it.
We've also played outside with the same gear, for our local football clubs open day - and it was plenty loud enough for the purpose.
If you use valve/tubes, the cleanish ones like the 6550s sound good.
I built a nice amp using a push pull pair of 6550s and it pumps out about 100w
and is pretty clean. Speakers for bass are interesting, with fans out there using anything from 10" to 18" ... sometimes the best is a combination of sizes to cover different tonal spectra.
Of course, a powerful S/S amp is the cheapest, but there is more fun building a tube amp ....of course.
I built a nice amp using a push pull pair of 6550s and it pumps out about 100w
and is pretty clean. Speakers for bass are interesting, with fans out there using anything from 10" to 18" ... sometimes the best is a combination of sizes to cover different tonal spectra.
Of course, a powerful S/S amp is the cheapest, but there is more fun building a tube amp ....of course.
- don't know much about bass/speakers, but for what it's worth I've read that when vox put out speaker cabs targeted at bass in the 60s, with 18 inch or 15 inch speakers, they apparently weren't so popular, supposedly the 12 inch speakers in the guitar cabs were good for higher frequencies produced by the bass, which were lost with the bigger speakers..I think players used a combination 12 and 15 inch cab in the end.....like I said though, I'm no expert on this stuff, but maybe someone else can tell you if any of it is relevant today.
Well I don`t know, I`m building a kind of kombo of customized amps in one rack unit. The preamp will have SVT 3 Pro character, power amp will be Leach 200W, and I also will add a tube limiter/compressor and Ampeg 9-band equalizer with customized center frequences. That`ll sure be a one nice combo with octaver in the FX inserted 
Ragnar said:Well I don`t know, I`m building a kind of kombo of customized amps in one rack unit. The preamp will have SVT 3 Pro character, power amp will be Leach 200W, and I also will add a tube limiter/compressor and Ampeg 9-band equalizer with customized center frequences. That`ll sure be a one nice combo with octaver in the FX inserted
The Ampeg SVP Pro is a very nice preamp, and sounds surprisingly like a 'real' Ampeg with a solid state power amplifier. Your system should sound great! Have you thought about the Super Leach amp? or using extra power devices in the original Leach?
super leach
well yes, I also thought about this one, but on the other hand, I realized that something above 200W will be way too sufficient in the "playroom" and if no somehow
, I will mic it..
anyway, my guitar amp powered with a pair of 6L6S have very nice levels of volume and in my room I never cross the "2" level, and in the noise room we don`t need to make it above 5-6...and that`s 60W
well yes, I also thought about this one, but on the other hand, I realized that something above 200W will be way too sufficient in the "playroom" and if no somehow
, I will mic it..anyway, my guitar amp powered with a pair of 6L6S have very nice levels of volume and in my room I never cross the "2" level, and in the noise room we don`t need to make it above 5-6...and that`s 60W
ok.... here's my $0.02......
the nasty farting sounding distortion actually comes from the awful protection circuitry that many SS amps use. look at the schematic, and see if the driver stage (usually) has a pair of transistors between the speaker rail and the base of the drivers. they're usually drawn facing the input side of the amp, since the base drive for them comes from the output stage emitter resistors. what they do is clamp the amp driver stage if there is too much emitter current in the output stage. nice idea, but it changes the clipping behavior of the amp, and usually makes the amp sound like dog doo-doo when it clips. other things that make an amp sound bad at clipping is clipping "hangover", where the drivers or output devices saturate, and the output waveform "hangs" on the rail for a few microseconds longer than it should, further distorting the output waveform. this can be seen with the amp driven to clipping with a sine wave, but it's more obvious with a triangle wave, since the waveform, rather than follow the input slope downward from clipping, hangs at the rail voltage, then drops vertically until it catches up with where it should be. if i can't draw it correctly, i will attempt to run a spice simulation and post the pictures from the result......
normal clipping
.._
./..\
/....\
"hangover" clipping
..__
./..|
/....\
hopefully this comes out ok and you get the "picture".....
both forms of clipping behavior, the protection circuit activation and the "hangover" clipping effect the sound badly, but the hangover clipping can also eat tweeters......
also i wanted to point out that 200 watts is only 3db louder than 100 watts, and 400 watts is only 6db louder..... it's best to start with the highest efficiency speaker and cabinet you can...... most home stereo drivers are only rated at about 85dbSPL 1w/1m, but many pro-audio cabinets and drivers BEGIN at about 90-95db SPL 1w/1m, so using a 94db cabinet with a 100w amp, already gives you a 9db increase over a "run-of-the-mill" speaker, as if you had increased your power from 100w to 800w......
the nasty farting sounding distortion actually comes from the awful protection circuitry that many SS amps use. look at the schematic, and see if the driver stage (usually) has a pair of transistors between the speaker rail and the base of the drivers. they're usually drawn facing the input side of the amp, since the base drive for them comes from the output stage emitter resistors. what they do is clamp the amp driver stage if there is too much emitter current in the output stage. nice idea, but it changes the clipping behavior of the amp, and usually makes the amp sound like dog doo-doo when it clips. other things that make an amp sound bad at clipping is clipping "hangover", where the drivers or output devices saturate, and the output waveform "hangs" on the rail for a few microseconds longer than it should, further distorting the output waveform. this can be seen with the amp driven to clipping with a sine wave, but it's more obvious with a triangle wave, since the waveform, rather than follow the input slope downward from clipping, hangs at the rail voltage, then drops vertically until it catches up with where it should be. if i can't draw it correctly, i will attempt to run a spice simulation and post the pictures from the result......
normal clipping
.._
./..\
/....\
"hangover" clipping
..__
./..|
/....\
hopefully this comes out ok and you get the "picture".....
both forms of clipping behavior, the protection circuit activation and the "hangover" clipping effect the sound badly, but the hangover clipping can also eat tweeters......
also i wanted to point out that 200 watts is only 3db louder than 100 watts, and 400 watts is only 6db louder..... it's best to start with the highest efficiency speaker and cabinet you can...... most home stereo drivers are only rated at about 85dbSPL 1w/1m, but many pro-audio cabinets and drivers BEGIN at about 90-95db SPL 1w/1m, so using a 94db cabinet with a 100w amp, already gives you a 9db increase over a "run-of-the-mill" speaker, as if you had increased your power from 100w to 800w......
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