Attenuation circuit. What is ideal location?

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Have you read the system gain article?

Have you done any research on gain and/or attenuation?

No to both questions.

My background is mathematics and IT, not engineering. I am used to modelling and designing first (and remodelling and redesigning second, and third and fourth and fifth and ... you get my point :) ), with building much, much later.
I always thought that good sound was the result of superior design. What the last year, reading diyaudio, has taught me is that good sound is much more about part selection/interaction and optimising a design for those parts than I had thought.

It has also taught me never to give an example when I ask a hypothetical question :violin:

Which system gain article did you have in mind?
 
Maybe the mods should prohibit use of words like 'best', 'ideal' (except in a theoretical sense), 'ultimate' etc. from the forum? 'Best' and 'ideal' always mean that an optimisation problem must be be posed and solved, which means that detailed goodness criteria must be stated (but they never are). 'Ultimate' means impossible to better, which is a silly idea for anything made by humans.
 
Isn't the ideal to have no attenuation circut at all but to do the attenuation digitally before sending it to the DAC?

At 0dB you can use all 16 (or 24 or however many you have) bits to send the signal. If you attenuate, you need some of those bits to send a lot of zeroes. You cannot use those bits for the actual signal. Information will thus be lost if you use digital attenuation.
 
On the front page of diyaudio under articles.

It might do you good to read all of them, so that you then know where to go before asking ambiguous questions.

BTW,
I get the impression that you think you are at a disadvantage in not being an electronics trained Member.
You will find if you look that the vast majority here are non electronics and non electrical. They are here because they have electronics as a hobby and as a result they are self taught.
 
My background is mathematics and IT, not engineering...
I always thought that good sound was the result of superior design. What the last year, reading diyaudio, has taught me is that good sound is much more about part selection/interaction and optimising a design for those parts than I had thought.

This audio discipline is not as exact as Math and IT, but far from it. Many experts spend their whole life in audio but still cannot create the "best" system. So never assume that you can fully understand this discipline simply by reading one or two books or spend one or two years in audio projects.

A good sound is a result of a complete system design from source to speaker. They are interdependent. We need to know IT in digital processing. We need to know mechanic and acoustics in speaker design and worse we need to know psychology and biology :D

Because audio system is usually designed partially, it makes part selection/interaction and optimization become more critical. You may have the "best" amplifier design and the "best" speaker design but if your speaker doesn't want to cooperate with the amp, then you will not get the "best" sound.
 
At 0dB you can use all 16 (or 24 or however many you have) bits to send the signal. If you attenuate, you need some of those bits to send a lot of zeroes. You cannot use those bits for the actual signal. Information will thus be lost if you use digital attenuation.

Are you following the digital technology/development in audio? In audio we have amplifier experts, speaker experts and may be "digital" experts. Sometimes an expert in one area doesn't understand the other areas. Cool, isn't it? ;)
 
My first career was in IT, and the language of serious audio is not that different; both are branches of engineering. As I said, 'best' should make you think 'optimisation problem' which then leads to 'criteria?'.

In audio, performance is measured in terms of the subjective listening experience. There can therefore never be an objective "best".

There can however be a theoretical basis to decide that one topology is objectively better than another.

Nelson for instance tells us in the Aleph manuals that he believes that using few gain stages is better than using a lot of gain stages.
Most amplifiers on the market have between five and seven gain stages in series between the input and the output. The Aleph 30 has but two, and enjoys a very direct path from input to output, further enhancing the purity of the circuit and the resulting sound.

Or at least gives the impression that he feels that few is better than more.
 
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Are you following the digital technology/development in audio? In audio we have amplifier experts, speaker experts and may be "digital" experts. Sometimes an expert in one area doesn't understand the other areas. Cool, isn't it? ;)

Yes, I see what you mean. :p

It is funny though that this is an example where there really is an "objective best". Do not throw away your bits! :smash:
 
At 0dB you can use all 16 (or 24 or however many you have) bits to send the signal. If you attenuate, you need some of those bits to send a lot of zeroes. You cannot use those bits for the actual signal. Information will thus be lost if you use digital attenuation.

Of course, but you don't really need 24 bits to represent the sound which is why digital attenuation works so well. 16 bits is enough and some more, the rest is just padding so in practice you are attenuating away the padding and not the signal you hear.

If you attenuate past 60-80 db then sure you will introduce high frequency noise compared to original signal, but then there won't be a lot of signal left so you probably wouldn't hear it anyway ;)
 
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If Pass said this then I think he is misleading us.

Aleph 30 manual attached

Dear Customer,

The Pass Aleph 30 is the first of the second generation of Aleph single-ended Class A power amplifiers. This design results from my commitment to create the best sounding product, a simple circuit having the most natural characteristic. The Pass Aleph 30 integrates power Mosfet devices and pure single ended Class A operation in a simple two-gain-stage topology with the sole purpose of recreating subjectively natural sound.
The Pass Aleph 30 is unique in a number of ways:
Most amplifiers on the market have between five and seven gain stages in series between the input and the output. The Aleph 30 has but two, and enjoys a very direct path from input to output, further enhancing the purity of the circuit and the resulting sound.

...
Sorry. Aleph 30 manual was too large and exceeded diyaudio upload limit. Aleph 60 manual uploaded instead. Same text in this one.
 

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The Pass Aleph 30 is unique in a number of ways:
Most amplifiers on the market have between five and seven gain stages in series between the input and the output. The Aleph 30 has but two, and enjoys a very direct path from input to output, further enhancing the purity of the circuit and the resulting sound.


Nelson mentioned the Aleph 30 uniqueness: Most amps on the market are class-B, the Aleph 30 is class-A :D

What do you mean by TSSA?

It's an amplifier by Lazy Cat. Only two stages but you can get above 50W easily, and current feedback.
 
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