I really dislike CFL bulbs due to the color spectrum they produce and the cheap driver electronics that fail in enclosed spaces. CFLs are a stop gap until LEDs are finally cheap and efficient enough. The LED ceiling and under cabinet fixtures today are indistinguishable from their tungsten counterparts. My biggest fear is that when energy usage goes down the utilities will claim loss of profits so rates will need increased. I know in theory they will need to generate less so their fuel costs will be less, but lets be realistic here. They know you can afford you current rate now so why bother lowering it?
Just as a sobering thought about CFL, you might want to read this test from a few years back.
The Best Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs: PM Lab Test - Popular Mechanics
Spoiler; incandescent doesn't do as well as you might hope.
The Best Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs: PM Lab Test - Popular Mechanics
Spoiler; incandescent doesn't do as well as you might hope.
LED fixture evaluations
Does anyone actually think that a large HID mfg like Venture, are on there way to obsolescence in a short time frame? If so, are they, Venture, that foolish that they would not jump on the LED band wagon and abandon futher HID lamp technology development?
I doubt very much that LED's will ever light up a large sports stadium.
CFL's, with self contained electronics, is a prime example of our throw-away society. We actually had a screw base, with electronics, that a std 4-pin CFL plugged into = no market, squashed by cheap CFL w/integrated electronic ballasts = what in the hell are the gov/regulators thinking? Well its turkey day for the US folks, = no support calls, thx, fitting for my thoughts about the gov/regulators!!
Cheers Rick
We have evaluated a few LED fixtures, from the large OEM guys. What we see, is that they all require a rather large & I would think, expensive, aluminum heatsinks. This is obviously required to keep the die temp. down to achieve the reliability #'s that they target. This adds an extremely higher cost to a what was a very simple light fixture, made from steel, as is done today for FL/HID tech. Even if the light source was pennies, they have these large costs to contend with. It also makes the fixture significantly larger than an equivalent fixture using CFL/HID tech.
Does anyone actually think that a large HID mfg like Venture, are on there way to obsolescence in a short time frame? If so, are they, Venture, that foolish that they would not jump on the LED band wagon and abandon futher HID lamp technology development?
I doubt very much that LED's will ever light up a large sports stadium.
CFL's, with self contained electronics, is a prime example of our throw-away society. We actually had a screw base, with electronics, that a std 4-pin CFL plugged into = no market, squashed by cheap CFL w/integrated electronic ballasts = what in the hell are the gov/regulators thinking? Well its turkey day for the US folks, = no support calls, thx, fitting for my thoughts about the gov/regulators!!
Cheers Rick
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In another part of the city, they're changing the layout of a main road and at the same time the old LPS luminaires are replaced by luminaires with cool white LEDs. The light from these has no remarkably large blue spectrum but is comparable to that from 4000 K fluorescent lamps. I feel more comfortable under the new lights (CCT 4000 K, CRI 70) than under the old (CCT 1800 K, CRI 1). Perhaps the ability to see colours is what helps...
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There is no arguement from me, that "new lights (CCT 4000 K, CRI 70) than under the old (CCT 1800 K, CRI 1)" is better quality light!! & if they eliminate much of the blue spectrum, it is easier on the eyes. Now we just have to contend with these HID head lights which are a real pain for my eyes, at least.
Larger initial cost will probably be offset by lower maintenance cost when we're talking about street lights. Replacing a light source in one of these can't be cheap, even if the light source itself is. Wages and equipment will add cost. And on busy roads and highways, it might only be possible to replace light sources at night when wages are even higher.
I was surprised to read that the failure rate of LPS is 10% at only 12,000 hours and 50% at 18,000 hours. If you can replace these with LED luminaires that do 50,000 - 70,000 hours (let's assume they do), then that will save you sending out service men at least 5 times.
I always wonder how people can peform sports in outdoor sports parks at night with those incredibly bright lights. Sure, they're mounted on very tall poles, but still...
Currently metal halide lamp equipped street lights are the most numerous here for main roads and highways. Older luminaires still have LPS or HPS.
LED replacement in cool white light (4000 K) luminaires are starting to appear.
In residential areas mostly PL-L (Biax) is used in luminaires on shorter pillars, either in cool white (4000 K) or warm white (3000 K). Because of the diffuse nature of (C)FL, these don't create glare. The LED replacement luminaires for these usually are of the indirect type, also to prevent glare.
Almost gone are MV luminaires.
Yes you are 100% correct, maintenance plays a big part in this.
Be warned: The assumption is that after 50-70K hours that you can obtain the same unit as a replacement. You have absolutely no guarantee from these BIG mfg's, that they will still be supplying replacements!! It would be okay, if there was some sort of stardardization, but from what I am seeing, it does not exist at this time = everyone wants to do their own thing = proprietary = scary!! We shall see how it all plays out in the long run.
Be warned: The assumption is that after 50-70K hours that you can obtain the same unit as a replacement. You have absolutely no guarantee from these BIG mfg's, that they will still be supplying replacements!! It would be okay, if there was some sort of stardardization, but from what I am seeing, it does not exist at this time = everyone wants to do their own thing = proprietary = scary!! We shall see how it all plays out in the long run.
I used to be in the fine art print business, first in Honolulu, then on Maui. It was a roaring good business at the time, before the crash. In Honolulu we had an early scanning back camera, the Dichomed (sp?) that later became the Better-Light camera. I think they are from California, right? On Maui we used the PhaseOne back. All for scanning paintings. The only thing that even roughly compare in quality were 8x10" transparencies. 4x5" just didn't cut it.
These days I no longer print or scan, I'm back to the video biz where I do large and very large screen digital projection with multiple projectors. It's still all about colors and luminance, but in the opposite direction.
What's your biz?
I remember Dicomed really well. I never had their scanning back, but I did have their single capture back with 6 x 6 cm Thompson chip. In mid 90s that was miracle. I knew Trevor Haworth, Discomed owner really well.
I am in advertising. I was actively shooting for clients up to 2000, when I started running business, than I closed it in 2009, when my biggest client centralized operations to East Coast and now I am VP creative, leading a creative and production departments for luxury goods company. Yes, our business dramatically changed over last 20 years. Since I worked for companies that were big users of digital cameras, I was directly involved with almost every camera maker testing and experimenting, before I would decide on purchase. It was good place to be in those early digital days. Unlike then, now technology works, but it is boring comparing to excitement of trying to figure it out.
I am really glad to have a fellow audio transformers and camera lover here, hehehe
In 50k hours up time they wont even produce the same product anymore, let alone have replacements for any of the internal parts. This is a good thing though as we're talking 10 years+, so the tech will have most likely improved significantly both in terms of absolute performance and performance vs cost.
I skimmed through a few street light brochures and Philips coined the term "reLEDding" in there explaining that current LED modules can be upgraded in the future with LED modules that are then state of the art.
This leads me to believe that long lived professional/industrial LED luminaires will remain serviceable for a long time, but probably only with parts of the same manuacturer.
Probably for street lights that may run 4-5Khrs/year
We have FL products in factories than run 24/7/365, so that is ~9Khr/yr, so it is more like 5 years life span, in these special cases.
If they (say Philips) standardize on LED modules, form/fit/function, then all is well, as long as they are in the game, when service time comes around. What they say and what they guarantee may not be the same thing however. I wonder if they could put that in writing, as in a written guarantee?
It is still a scary proposition, single sourced suppliers!! Once they have you bought into the LED scam, then they hold you by the long & curlys.
FYI, a few years ago, I noticed many new traffic intersection lights with LED modules. Now, I do not see them being used anymore, I wonder why?
Like I say, we shall see how it all plays out. We'll have this discussion in 5 years time from now.
I was wondering... After digitally leafing through some more brochures, I noticed that some more expensive versions are specified at 100,000 hours average lifetime and lumen depreciation to 70% (70,000 hours for "economy" versions).
Surely after all these hours the driver electronics must also be end-of-life, and the luminaire itself would also be showing wear?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just replace the whole unit after all this time instead of replacing driver and LED modules?
I wonder about this because last year I installed some water resistant 36 W FL luminaires in the storage space of our apartment building. Purchase cost for one luminaire with electronic ballast and Osram tube wasn't even twice the cost of the retail price of a new tube. I'd certainly be tempted to replace the whole thing when the time comes if it showed the slightest trace of wear...
Of course pro lighting gear isn't going to be as cheap as this...
Surely after all these hours the driver electronics must also be end-of-life, and the luminaire itself would also be showing wear?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just replace the whole unit after all this time instead of replacing driver and LED modules?
I wonder about this because last year I installed some water resistant 36 W FL luminaires in the storage space of our apartment building. Purchase cost for one luminaire with electronic ballast and Osram tube wasn't even twice the cost of the retail price of a new tube. I'd certainly be tempted to replace the whole thing when the time comes if it showed the slightest trace of wear...
Of course pro lighting gear isn't going to be as cheap as this...
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I certianly hope that in the future driver/power supply components will be more reliable.
Otherwise we all might aswell go back to candlelight.
This has bugged me also, the cheap chinese ones dont last at all and the expensive name brand ones are questionable in the long term.
The latter is why I've held off on buying into led lighting.
LOL, the local government here just installed and replaced practically every single traffic light here with LED variants, I certianly hope they know what the are doing and didnt cheapen out on the cheaper versions. otherwise its going to be yet another painful lesson for us taxpayers.
Then again I dont think the taxpayers have any brains at all especially when they voted the greens into office, but its not difficult to be conned into this shill game, not at all.
The energy suppliers reckon that we are moving into a natural gas and solar powered future, but as a result we have to give up off-peak power, to top it off there is no WAY that energy prices will go down in this country even when natural gas is far cheaper, and we have massive reserves, and the worst part is nobody cares or is smart enough to care about the issue, so the companies get off with cold blooded robbery.
If you go to solar, then you give up any offpeak benefits, figure that one out, the inverters are grid tied so all they are doing is trying to raise profits and extend the number of customers beyond what their generating capacity is. a very dangerous game if you ask me!!!
What happens if/when all of those customers dont bother to replace the equipment/solar panels WHEN it eventually fails????? in about 10-20 years...
STOP signing into contracts at the bloomin front door!!!!! Tell them to GET LOST!
They will just trick you into either a smart meter or a flatrate plan which is fixed at a shoulder rate, ontop of that they WILL raise the service rate fee!!!
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Them darn LEDs are everywhere! Was wondering around the house this morning at 3AM and noticed LEDs everywhere, some actually lighting my way.
All glowing their little hearts out.
- The bedside clock
- The cordless phone
- A riot of LEDs on the cable modem, router and VoIP device.
- Clock on the stove
- Clock on the microwave oven
- Water dispenser on the fridge
- Lighting inside the fridge when opened.
- Amplifier in living room
- Another telephone
- Faux votive candles my wife had left on
- Computer mouse
- Now the back light of my computer monitor
All glowing their little hearts out.
An article in EDN a few months back pointed out that the electrolytic caps in LED drivers were bound to fail as they weren't those designed for such service.
Nothing wrong with reading by candle-light as long as you've got a little bourbon or cognac to go with it. We did this for 9 days while our power was out.
That must be the achilles heel of LED lighting.
I maintain the lighting in our apartment building since 2005, which I figure burns 5,000+ hours per year. In that application, CFLs last much longer than the average stated by the manufacturer. On a few with an expected lifetime of 6,000 hours, I had written the installation date. One was replaced after 2 years and 8 months (~13,300 hours), another after 3 years and 7 months (~18,100 hours). On both the smoothing cap (elco) in the ballast had failed, the lamp was still OK.
Perhaps the worry with LED lighting isn't the light source after all...
I maintain the lighting in our apartment building since 2005, which I figure burns 5,000+ hours per year. In that application, CFLs last much longer than the average stated by the manufacturer. On a few with an expected lifetime of 6,000 hours, I had written the installation date. One was replaced after 2 years and 8 months (~13,300 hours), another after 3 years and 7 months (~18,100 hours). On both the smoothing cap (elco) in the ballast had failed, the lamp was still OK.
Perhaps the worry with LED lighting isn't the light source after all...
LED Lighting
Speaking of lighting, my UV water sterilizer ballasts is beeping this morning, now I have to tear it apart and figure it out, damn, got some snow last night too = xmas is here
Yes the ole Ecap is the weakest link in the drivers, just gotta change every say 7+ years. Way too expensive to use any other type of cap. 400V good luck.
I see mostly ecap's and Mosfet's as the weakest links accelerated by poor thermal management, this is a HV power supply after all.
Everything is the all mighty $, especially in a high volume competitive market=lower grade components. I can guarantee you they ain't using the very best Nichicon ecaps.
Do as the vintage Pioneer audio equip. followers are doing, re-cap and transistorize with better components.Okay for the home, impossible for the industry.
Reading a lamp spec, the lamp half life is the # that they are stating, it is a statistical method to fool the user. They ain't going to say in 50K hrs, half are not working!!
You have proven me correctly, CFL's are junk, short lamp life and inefficient. I see the engineer fighting everyday to get the driver eff up to meet EnergyStarII. These EnegyStar people are not with it, they should be banning CFL's. They last longer than a incandescent, that is all they offer, The spiral ones are the worst.
Pilot, task, reading, display lights, perfect, just what an LED was invented for.
Speaking of lighting, my UV water sterilizer ballasts is beeping this morning, now I have to tear it apart and figure it out, damn, got some snow last night too = xmas is here
Yes the ole Ecap is the weakest link in the drivers, just gotta change every say 7+ years. Way too expensive to use any other type of cap. 400V good luck.
I see mostly ecap's and Mosfet's as the weakest links accelerated by poor thermal management, this is a HV power supply after all.
Everything is the all mighty $, especially in a high volume competitive market=lower grade components. I can guarantee you they ain't using the very best Nichicon ecaps.
Do as the vintage Pioneer audio equip. followers are doing, re-cap and transistorize with better components.Okay for the home, impossible for the industry.
Reading a lamp spec, the lamp half life is the # that they are stating, it is a statistical method to fool the user. They ain't going to say in 50K hrs, half are not working!!
You have proven me correctly, CFL's are junk, short lamp life and inefficient. I see the engineer fighting everyday to get the driver eff up to meet EnergyStarII. These EnegyStar people are not with it, they should be banning CFL's. They last longer than a incandescent, that is all they offer, The spiral ones are the worst.
Pilot, task, reading, display lights, perfect, just what an LED was invented for.
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