Has anyone used the ST Microelectronics STA323W amp chip?
A company I consult uses these in one of their products and they sound great!
They run it as a 25 watt/channel stereo amp, but it can be used other ways too.
Here's the data sheet:
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/11535.pdf
A company I consult uses these in one of their products and they sound great!
They run it as a 25 watt/channel stereo amp, but it can be used other ways too.
Here's the data sheet:
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/11535.pdf
I took a look at this family of amplifiers about a year ago but I ended up settling on something else (TAS5504 + TAS5142 from TI). Mainly because I wanted more processing options and power.
The TAS5xxx and the STA3xx families seem to have about the same THD+N numbers. They both suffer from being open-loop systems so they have low power supply rejection (or so I am told).
But, to my ears, they both sound fine and I like that they are easy to use. Lets me concentrate on other aspects of my system.
Anyway... I ordered an evaluation board for the STA326 (a little higher power than the STA323) and it took them a loooong time to send it. Too long. By the time the postman dropped the eval board on my door, I had already decided on something else.
If you like, you can have my eval board. Just pay for the shipping (I live in Seattle). I guarantee it will be faster than trying to get one out of your local rep. Send mail if you want it.
Tyler.
The TAS5xxx and the STA3xx families seem to have about the same THD+N numbers. They both suffer from being open-loop systems so they have low power supply rejection (or so I am told).
But, to my ears, they both sound fine and I like that they are easy to use. Lets me concentrate on other aspects of my system.
Anyway... I ordered an evaluation board for the STA326 (a little higher power than the STA323) and it took them a loooong time to send it. Too long. By the time the postman dropped the eval board on my door, I had already decided on something else.
If you like, you can have my eval board. Just pay for the shipping (I live in Seattle). I guarantee it will be faster than trying to get one out of your local rep. Send mail if you want it.
Tyler.
tylerjbrooks said:
I'm not the original poster, but if you let me have the board I will get it back to you (eventually) with some nice code to control it. Take a look at the preliminary code in the link--that was done for the TAS3004. It allows you to read loudspeaker response files and use the biquads to develop crossovers and EQ. This code controls an amp like the one in the picture by sending the coefficient and register data across the USB bus (the power amp is the AD1994). The board can save the data in memory on the amp, so once you use the Windows app to develop the crossover and EQ the amp can program itself. The code in the link isn't fully functional, but it can change the biquads in real time, and switch between two banks of stored coefficients.
I've got another version of this application that controls the Apogee DDX-8001 chip (STA308). It's working and is actually a bit further along than the TAS3004 version. It also generates the coefficient data for the biquads from the filter specs and controls the chip registers, so adapting the code to the STA323 should be easy. I'd like to have the routines for the STA323 working, so I just need like to borrow your board until I can get around to making my own boards.
I like the STA32X chips. There are more advanced alternatives now, like the TAS5706 and Cirrus CS4525 and the AD1953/AD1994, but for some applications the STA323/6/8 would be a great solution. I'd like to have one software application that controls all of the 2-3 channel chips, plus another one for the 6-8 channel chips such as the TAS5518 and STA309.
The code requires the .NET framework and you must have the manco.dll file in the same directory (that dll handles the charting). BCD code for TAS3004 amps
BTW...I'll probably be in Seattle in two weeks.
I haven't heard from DP yet but it has only been a couple of days. I think it is only fair to wait until next week or so to see if he wants it.
You are second in line if he doesn't want it.
I would be interested in the biquad code. Sometime in the future, I would like to bi-amp some speakers with my system. I had it in the back of my mind to use the biquads to fix the obvious imperfections in the speaker response.
My partner has finished an ALSA driver (linux sound driver) for the TAS5504. I am sure he would be interested in how to use the biquads to equalize speakers. I will try to get him to post his work on our site.
Coming to Seattle? If so, maybe I could just hand you the board.
O... one annoying fact about the eval board. It didn't come with any manuals. You have to figure it out on your own. The board has some labels (MCLK, BCLK, ...etc) and some analog inputs so I bet you can figure it out. Alternatively, scrounge around on the ST site and see if you can find some info on it. It is an 'AP Interface' card that biggy-backs onto the actual amplifier board (a STA236_8 2.1Ch board VER 0 FEB 7 2006).
You are second in line if he doesn't want it.
I would be interested in the biquad code. Sometime in the future, I would like to bi-amp some speakers with my system. I had it in the back of my mind to use the biquads to fix the obvious imperfections in the speaker response.
My partner has finished an ALSA driver (linux sound driver) for the TAS5504. I am sure he would be interested in how to use the biquads to equalize speakers. I will try to get him to post his work on our site.
Coming to Seattle? If so, maybe I could just hand you the board.
O... one annoying fact about the eval board. It didn't come with any manuals. You have to figure it out on your own. The board has some labels (MCLK, BCLK, ...etc) and some analog inputs so I bet you can figure it out. Alternatively, scrounge around on the ST site and see if you can find some info on it. It is an 'AP Interface' card that biggy-backs onto the actual amplifier board (a STA236_8 2.1Ch board VER 0 FEB 7 2006).
tylerjbrooks said:
Email sent.
I posted some info on how the STA32X fits into my plans at the following:
Plateamps for active speakers
As you can tell, the STA32X is one of many options I'd like to make available for building active speakers. I've got a number of these amps working, but there's still a lot of work to be done to make them a "product". However, the software was a long pole, and I've made a lot of progress on that recently
Neil, I checked out your slide presentation. You are building something similar to our (Tyler and me) Digispeaker, http://www.digispeaker.com, project. Tyler has the STA326 eval board because it is an amp we evaluated and decided not to use.
Digispeaker takes your concept up another level. A Digispeaker needs digital input. It has a powerline modem and can receive this input over the AC wiring in your house. The digital source can be Internet radio, your PC, an A/D input board, or another Digispeaker (they have internal SD cards to hold the music).
The current Digispeaker design supports two models - a low end one which can biamp a pair of speakers and takes 44.1/48Khz input. Or a high end mode where you use two triamped Digispeakers (L/R) and they accept 192/24 input. The amp is a TAS5504 with a TAS5342 output stage.
Digispeakers are networked and work as a synchronized multiroom audio system. In the high end configuration you put two in each room and they are synchronized on left/right channels.
If you poke around on the web site you see that we support Insteon. Insteon lets you replace an existing light switch with a Keypadlinc, http://www.smarthome.com/2486dwh8.html. Buttons on this control the audio source, volume, etc. and your light too. The system is also capable of being controlled by an iPhone/iPod touch or any other IP device.
The full design is on the website. Take a look and let us know what we can do to improve it.
Digispeaker takes your concept up another level. A Digispeaker needs digital input. It has a powerline modem and can receive this input over the AC wiring in your house. The digital source can be Internet radio, your PC, an A/D input board, or another Digispeaker (they have internal SD cards to hold the music).
The current Digispeaker design supports two models - a low end one which can biamp a pair of speakers and takes 44.1/48Khz input. Or a high end mode where you use two triamped Digispeakers (L/R) and they accept 192/24 input. The amp is a TAS5504 with a TAS5342 output stage.
Digispeakers are networked and work as a synchronized multiroom audio system. In the high end configuration you put two in each room and they are synchronized on left/right channels.
If you poke around on the web site you see that we support Insteon. Insteon lets you replace an existing light switch with a Keypadlinc, http://www.smarthome.com/2486dwh8.html. Buttons on this control the audio source, volume, etc. and your light too. The system is also capable of being controlled by an iPhone/iPod touch or any other IP device.
The full design is on the website. Take a look and let us know what we can do to improve it.
jonsmirl said:
I looked at your web site, and what you are doing is interesting, but my focus is quite different. I'm more interested in active speakers with built-in digital crossovers, and that is why I need multiple amps and why I'm taking advantage of the biquads. Biquads are a great way to make great crossovers.
The presentation is actually part one of two: the possibilities get more interesting with the 6-8 channel amps like the TAS5518 or STA309. Right now I'm working on a very interesting speaker that uses two of the Spherex Xbox amps. The Spherex amps use the DDX-8001 controller--basically the same as the 8-channel STA308.There is a much older briefing that outlines where I was heading with these amps several years ago and provides some background. Actually, I'm still following the same basic plan: http://home.comcast.net/~neilandbarbaradavis/active_speakers/N-way.ppt
I agree with the benefits of an all-digital signal path, but I'm not commited to it. The digital amps require a well-designed power supply, because they are basically a power DAC. Also, you can still get lower distortion with a Class-D amp that has a well designed feedback loop. So in addition to the all-digital amps I'm also looking at digital amps that have analog inputs such as the TDA8290 and the AD1994.
Another difference we have is that I'd rather keep the audio networking "open" to allow different solutions. I agree that the powerline audio is a good approach, but so is wireless and wired ethernet. A lot of vendors are coming out with digital media players that you will be able to buy cheaper than you or I could build them, so why not have this be an off-the-shelf module that can be used with standard media server software? For this multi-amp speaker I'm working on I was leaning toward the Zyxel DMA1100P media player, but I haven't gotten that far yet.
BTW, the powerline audio concept is not new: the first wave came and went without commercial success. STT came out with the homeplug audio systems several years ago (see http://www.stt.com.tw/product/spk85.html), although they didn't try to address the high-end market with a full digital path. I've got 3 or 4 of the receiver boards that I scavanged from the Radio Shack Accurian HomePlug speakers, which were a commercial flop. I've also got a transmitter--you are welcome to all of them. The receivers and transmitter are actually the same board with different firmware, and they use the older Intellon 5100 chip (along with MP3 compression to reduce the data rates). It works OK in my house, but I couldn't get it to work at my mom's apartment complex because there were too many dropouts. The 5500 chip should be more robust and the 200M AV chips should be even better, but it's worth noting that powerline audio may not work unless you have an interference-free line.
But even though we have different objectives, we should probably continue to compare notes and look for opportunities to collaborate. About a year and a half ago I set up the Audio Developers web site, but I haven't done anything with it. The concept was to have a single site where multiple developers could sell or share complementary capabilities, such as electronics, software, cabinets, crossover design, measurement services, etc. A key idea was to get members of this "collective" to talk to each other to look for ways they could help--and this could be shared software, PCB design services, or other intellectual property that could help members be successful. If this is interesting to you maybe I need to get this effort organized.
My plan two years ago was to retire and start doing this fun audio stuff for work, but I'm married, and my wife had different ideas. The up side is that we have a nice house in the country...the down side is that I'm still working at a 9-5 job to pay for it.
Why do you need more channels? The TAS5508 only has three fully capable channels. So does the TAS5518. Those extra five channels don't work at 192Khz. I see from your older project you were trying to drive a dozen speakers.
We are using the three full channels to tri-amp in 192K mode with two Digispeakers (one for L/R). For lower cost use a single one and it can bi-amp at 44.1/48. It can also drive two full range speakers at 192K. The TAS5504 has the biquads needed to do this.
Note that you could use 10 Digispeakers in one room each capable of driving three speakers. You can then program the biquads to drive each speaker anyway you want to. Send 1Khz bands to each speaker, etc.
Digispeakers can take a 7.1 AC3 stream in and pick off individual channels. The mpc5200 CPU can do 1GFLOP and mp3 decoding takes less than 10% of the CPU. ac3 decode takes about 25%.
We're getting ready to start looking at speakers. We need to locate ones that are matched to our amps capabilities.
Power supply is a 90W, L6599 based half-bridge LLC adaptor with very stable output voltage and low EMI. It has a power factor correction front end (L6563 based) so it complies with the most stringent regulations. It's 92% efficient at full load. Power supply volume control is also implemented. This is a complex power supply to design.
What would be an alternative amplifier with a feedback loop?
The boards have Ethernet on them too. It can be let unpopulated to reduce costs ($8).
There is also a USB jack which can be populated ($5). Plug an 802.11 wireless stick into it.
The boards have a SD card socket. They understand SDHC and can take 8GB+ plus cards. To your PC they just look like remote disk drives. Copy your tunes into the SD cards and now you don't need a media server. The Digispeakers know about each other and can play tunes located on other nodes. Of course we can source from a media server or stream too.
If you want to play vinyl, digitize it first. Use a 192/24 DAC. Won't wear out your vinyl this way.
The 85Mb is more noise resistant that the older 14Mb.
To get around drop outs, the nodes use the 85Mb net to stay ahead of the stream. For example they may copy the next 4-5 songs on the play list into RAM on all of the nodes before synchronously starting to play them. Same for a net stream, it get buffered and then synchronously played. You can turn this off for live events.
In general the music is not streaming around the net in real-time. It moves around faster than real-time and highly synchronized clocked are used to make everything play at the same time.
If it is really a problem switch the node to Ethernet or 802.11.
jonsmirl said:
I'm just using SPDIF, so I don't care about 192KHZ audio. At 44.1KHz the TAS5518 provides 8 channels of processing. I'm using the other amps for flexibility or reinforcement (multiple amps per frequency band). I've got a GUI that lets you pick different configurations plus multiple amps per channel (for example, two amps for a bass channel to drive two bass speakers). The current pick list is:
2-way
2-way stereo
2-way stereo plus sub
3-way
3-way stereo
3-way stereo plus sub
4-way
4-way plus sub
5-way
6-way
The speaker I'm working on right now is a five-way with 2 amps for the sub (it actually uses 4 8" subs, two drivers per amp). So I'm using two 2 6-channel amps; one per speaker. The ST308 actually has 10 biquads per channel, so that's a lot of processing available for crossovers and EQ. I'll post some pictures when I get the nerve--it is pretty weird
You can play with an early version of the GUI--the code is at:
http://www.audiodevelopers.com/plateamps/BCD-Multichannel.zip
90W may not be adequate. My approach was to use an unregulated main supply and then use multiple local switchers like the LT1074 for each amp. The LT1074 is very simple and it easily puts out 100W. The picture shows an early prototype that used a TI evaluation board with the LT1074 board next to it. There is a toroid on the other side of the mounting plate
There are quite a few digital amps with analog input that use feedback to lower distortion and provide good PSRR. Philips, MPS, Sanyo, Tripath (R.I.P.), UCD, etc. The only amps that don't use analog feedback are the ST DDX, TI Purepath and the Cirrus stuff.
The point I was trying to make is that the digital media player market is maturing, and there are many benefits to leveraging what comes out of this technology. So I think it makes a lot of sense right now--at least for my application--to keep this a separate module rather than integrating a specific implementation into the design. Your design shows the powerline network chip on the same board as the amplifier, and I was trying to get you to think about that
. I was planning on using an off-the-shelf audio server to send linear PCM across the network to a media player, which would provide SPDIF to the digital amps. It's an all-digital path with no compression, and I can buy this capability from multiple vendors. But it sounds like your objectives are substantially different, in that you are trying to send 192KHz audio and you have a networking concept that isn't supported by the current generation of audio servers and media players. That's a level of complexity that I'm not up to right now, but if you can make it work it should be a unique and promising capability. There may even be a good market for high-end networked home audio installations that need this capability, and you might just be at the right place at the right time to benefit.
Anyway, it sounds like we've got some complementary work going on here. I've got a head start on using the biquads to implement crossovers that could probably help you out. And I've got some smaller digital amps that could fill out a product line with some low-cost amp alternatives. But I don't have anything comparable to your networking and AC3/MP3 decoding (other than off-the-shelf media players), and I don't have the programming skills to deal with the huge amount of open source audio processing and networking code. So it might make sense to get together and think through a strategy for working together (?).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Note that is 90W of DC power, not 90W of audio power. We can change the power stage to the 310W chip and build a new power supply if needed. We are designing for whole house audio applications, not 7.1 movies.
Do any of these have digital input? I'm the software guy, not the EE. Why do the TI designs not use feedback? Is it because of the support for power supply volume control (PSVC)? We've done some testing and PSVC makes a huge difference at low volumes.
You can plug an iPod into the USB port. The integrated media server feature comes almost for free. The nodes are running Linux. It costs $1 to add the SD card socket. Later we'll write software to transparently sync the contents of your iPod onto the SD cards.
Each channel of uncompressed audio in the system utilizes about 2Mb of bandwidth. If you are running 6 channels that is 12Mb. That's why 14Mb powerline doesn't work get a little noise and you can hear the drop outs. That is same same reason Sonos has switched from 802.11G ($20) to 802.11N ($70). Powerline is about $25.
For your application get a NSLU2. Find a USB 1.0 hub (not a 2.0 one, of if it is 2.0 make sure it is multi-TT). Buy several USB audio adpaters with SPIF out like this one. NSLU2 can support 4-5 of these. Load Linux on to the NSLU2. Add on a USB 2.0 external drive, get SATA or IDE. Put a 1TB disk in it. For under $400 you have a 1TB audio server capable of serving four zones. It can also funcition as a media server and server videos/stills to something like a DSM-520 I'm currently using this setup in my house.
After reading some TI app notes, they are suggesting it is better to put the amp on the power supply board. That might make sense, you could then have 100W, 300W, etc boards.
Powerline support can be left unpopulated. It will be the subject of some intensive testing from us. The main reason for powerline support is to dramatically lower the cost of retrofiting wholehouse audio into existing homes. Instead of running audio wires to a central location, just look around in the ceiling until you can find some AC. In my last house it was $8,000 for the audio wiring not including any electronics. You are looking at the prototype board designs, we haven't decided on a final form.
I have been doing software over 20 years. I work on the Linux kernel and used to work in the Microsoft networking group. The mpc5200 with floating point was picked to make hacking easy. We could have used an ARM chip without FP and saved $8. But then you would need to write audio codecs in fixed point assembly. Fixed point assembly codecs are available but not many people have the skills to work on them.
So with an 80% efficient amp you'll get about 70W of audiojonsmirl said:
The class-D amps with feedback are usually analog input. The one exception that I know about is the TAS5706, which uses a closed loop power stage to increase PSRR. It looks like TI is starting to integrate this approach into its power stage product line.
The article that created a backlash against the all-digital amps is the one by Putzeys. It's a bit dogmatic but it has some well-taken points. My response is to provide a wide range of class D products, to appeal to all audio religions
Cool stuff, but I don't know whether people will buy it. Or whether someone will come out with a really cheap version that will make the DIY stuff OBE.
The Accurian speakers that I was playing are strictly 2-channel, MP3 compressed, so very low bitrate. There were dropouts because the original homeplug technology wasn't refined. I've seen some reports on the newer powerline networking products and the newer standards perform much better. But all of these standards need to be applied with care, using suitable buffers and some attention to the operating environment. For example, Bluetooth audio works great until you turn on the microwave.
Maybe someday. Windows Media Player recognizes the digital media players as devices and that's OK for me in the short term.
Agreed. One of the TI app notes shows the distortion graphs for using a relatively short length of wire between the power supply and the amp--it's surprizing how much benefit you get from having the power supply close by. Also, because of the PSVC, the amp and power supply become more tightly coupled. So it makes sense to put these on one board. But I wouldn't get carried away with PFC. I don't think anyone in the audio community is too concerned about that right now.
My background is hardware and systems but I've got enough programming skills to be dangerous (mostly assembly code). My approach is to let the biquads do the DSP, so I can get by with a small controller on the I2C bus to control the chips. All of the number crunching is done in VB.net, and I just sent the results to the controller for storage and loading into the amps. I'm able to hack away at this stuff because the tools are good, but it's not something I enjoy or something that I am good at. What you are doing with the mpc5200 is out of my comfort zone by a lot.
There are always a lot of tradeoffs between cost, development time and capabilities, but if you can get a diverse group to work collaboratively you don't have to make as many compromises in the design. That's why I keep suggesting some additional dialogue to look for ways to help each other. I'm getting ready to disappear for a while, working long hours on a proposal in Seattle, but maybe after things slow down...
STA328 Eval board working
Thanks.
It's taken a while, but I've finally got some software working to control the amp--including the embedded biquads. It's a nice amp: quiet, plenty of power, and enough DSP to build some elaborate crossover networks. So I think I'm going to try building some of my own.
The control program allows you to import loudspeaker measurements and then use the biquads to achieve target responses. The program is getting re-written and a lot of stuff isn't working yet, but it's far enough along that it is fun to play with. If the program doesn't find an amp on the USB port, it will work in "off-line" mode, where it provides a math model of the STA328 chip. The program also will control amps that have the TAS3004 chip, and if you play with the menu items you can see what else is in the pipeline.
The program is in the link below. It requires Microsoft .NET framework 3.5, SP1, and you will also need to download the MSchart controls. The next release of Windows will include .NET 3.5 and the chart controls, but right now you have to get them yourself...
http://www.audiodevelopers.com/plateamps/BCD.zip
tylerjbrooks said:
Thanks.
It's taken a while, but I've finally got some software working to control the amp--including the embedded biquads. It's a nice amp: quiet, plenty of power, and enough DSP to build some elaborate crossover networks. So I think I'm going to try building some of my own.
The control program allows you to import loudspeaker measurements and then use the biquads to achieve target responses. The program is getting re-written and a lot of stuff isn't working yet, but it's far enough along that it is fun to play with. If the program doesn't find an amp on the USB port, it will work in "off-line" mode, where it provides a math model of the STA328 chip. The program also will control amps that have the TAS3004 chip, and if you play with the menu items you can see what else is in the pipeline.
The program is in the link below. It requires Microsoft .NET framework 3.5, SP1, and you will also need to download the MSchart controls. The next release of Windows will include .NET 3.5 and the chart controls, but right now you have to get them yourself...
http://www.audiodevelopers.com/plateamps/BCD.zip
rickco said:
Tyler may know of a source at ST, but as far as I know you can't purchase these.
I just had some boards made that are a little nicer than these ST boards, in that they have a convenient USB audio interface. I still need to build one up to check it out, but I've used most of the circuitry before in other amps, so it should work. The USB audio board is set up as 2.1; I've got another version that is stereo (two bridged channels) with an SPDIF input--that's what is in the picture.
OK.
In fact I want to build a board for biological application. Animals like dogs can ear ultrasonic frequencies up to 40khz.
I wanted to quickly test the sta328 in audio quality in this high frequencies and compare it with the Ti TAS5706A ans Cirrus CS4525 which are the only chips (full i2s to power outputs) I can easly buy on the internet.
Does anyone has ever tested the frequency response after the 20khz of one of this chips ?
In docs, they always stop their study at this 20khz frequency.
In fact I want to build a board for biological application. Animals like dogs can ear ultrasonic frequencies up to 40khz.
I wanted to quickly test the sta328 in audio quality in this high frequencies and compare it with the Ti TAS5706A ans Cirrus CS4525 which are the only chips (full i2s to power outputs) I can easly buy on the internet.
Does anyone has ever tested the frequency response after the 20khz of one of this chips ?
In docs, they always stop their study at this 20khz frequency.
rickco said:
The evaluation board wouldn't do you much good. The STA328 powers up with the outputs disabled, and you have to write to a register on the I2C bus to turn on the device. So if you don't have a micro available to program the chip you won't get anything out of it.
The output filter is designed to roll off the amp at 20Khz. Use a different filter design to get to 40KHz, or else use a different load impedance--the app notes for these chips explain the filter designs.
Digikey now carries some of the ST chips. Gerberelec.com has the older Apogee-labeled devices (STA328 = DDXi-2161). However, the best chip for your application would be the STA333, which is "micro-less": doesn't require a controller to enable it, and Digikey carries it. Unfortunately, the STA333 is "slugdown" rather than slug-up, so the board design that I have for the STA328 won't do you any good (the pinout is different).
In my board, there will be a microcontroller, so sta328 is better for me than than the microless version of sta333.
In fact, better devices would be sta339bws in my case for others considerations, but it is not easy to buy it (perhaps impossible now).
In the development board detailed by ST, the USB or Rs232 connection allows registers programmation, so if I could change the output filter directly on board, by replacing filter component by another, I think I could test the device for high frequencies.
Sta328 datasheet of ST : http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/10787.pdf
Am I right ?
Where can I find the informations about your board?
In fact, better devices would be sta339bws in my case for others considerations, but it is not easy to buy it (perhaps impossible now).
In the development board detailed by ST, the USB or Rs232 connection allows registers programmation, so if I could change the output filter directly on board, by replacing filter component by another, I think I could test the device for high frequencies.
Sta328 datasheet of ST : http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/10787.pdf
Am I right ?
Where can I find the informations about your board?
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