Iron-Wizard said:
If you re-read my post you'll see that I used phrases like 'another Volt fan here', 'incredible' and 'hard to beat at any price' all of which referred to the Volts in general. So its clear I think very highly of them so I'm not sure where you got the impression that I was hard on them. They're amongst the best at what they are intended for ie. woofers rather than subwoofers.
To coax 20hz out of them at decent levels you need to be looking at TL's or huge vented enclosures. Distortion levels on the Volts goes through the roof at 20hz and there's just not enough excursion/displacement to get down there at loud levels. A quick glance at the TS parameters and its clear these aren't intended to go deep but are intended for superb slam, tonal accuracy and detail. There's better options if your looking for infrasonic bass with lower distortion. The Volts don't try to be subs and they aren't intended for that market either, they're studio monitor and PA drivers.
The radial chassis does become warmer the more you push it. I never found it to get hot though but I wasn't trying. I believe it does its job - moves heat away from the coil.
Your right, i read your not a fan and i was like why? sorry about that guy.
What in the specs make you think there not for infra bass, i was told there really good for deep bass, most woofers at 20Hz show lots of stress as they get really hot below there Fs, you can just add some weight to the cone and drop the Fs by a few Hz.
What in the specs make you think there not for infra bass, i was told there really good for deep bass, most woofers at 20Hz show lots of stress as they get really hot below there Fs, you can just add some weight to the cone and drop the Fs by a few Hz.
Iron-Wizard said:
They don't have the excursion to produce decent levels at 20hz and the linear of xmax of 6.5mm suggest that the BL curve is far from flat throughout the 30mm stroke range. So distortion isn't going to be great at high excursion, there's also the higher Fs and sure you can add mass but you also lower efficiency and change a few of the critical TS parameters. By doing this your essentially changing what the Volt is good at. You can't force a driver into producing sub bass by brute force. Although you could buy 4 or more of the 15" radials, use them in an array and EQ the low end up. The extra 12dB of headroom that this config offers over a single 15" driver would offset the distortion. But then your looking at mega bucks and all the while you could have something that could do the same thing for a fraction of the price, such as an Adire Tumult. The Volts are made for extreme levels from the 30hz-40hz and up range and its here where they have rightly carved themselves a loyal following. Below this they should be augmented with a true subwoofer to really see them in their best operating range and conditions.
Simple fact is that they don't have what it takes to be true infrasonic performers but then again if Volt wanted to create one of those then they would. They're really intended for use in multiway loudspeakers.
Some of the drivers that Rel uses in their ST range of subs are Volt but as I understand it, they use bespoke drivers that are modified to Rel's specs.
OK then, I'm going to get off the Volt waggon and look elsewhere. Thanks everyone for your input.
Maybe I should change the question. What 15" drivers would you consider for a sealed enclosure for a) HT apps, and b) Music apps?
I've already noted the Tumult and the sealed WinISD plot looks ok if you take into account room gain, but I think it's been mentioned already that it might not be as tight as others.
Maybe I should change the question. What 15" drivers would you consider for a sealed enclosure for a) HT apps, and b) Music apps?
I've already noted the Tumult and the sealed WinISD plot looks ok if you take into account room gain, but I think it's been mentioned already that it might not be as tight as others.
sjalloq said:
Just a quick note; I commented on the Resonant Engineering 15" XXX v3 and whilst the Tumult shares some common design features it isn't the same driver. The XXX is really a high quality car sub and the Tumult is a high quality home sub. I use the XXX because they're available in the UK and shipping on the Tumult was rediculous from the US. However the Tumult will almost certainly sound better and from the reports on here and other places, its superb with music.
sjalloq said:
In a sealed enclosure I'd go with the 2 x 10" Peerless XLS in a 40ltr NET enclosure. Ignore winISD when modelling the XLS, its just plain wrong.
Take a look at what these guys have done with the XLS10 in a sealed enclosure:
http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XLS200.htm
The F6(-6dB) is at 17hz and I've owned one of these a couple of years ago. They'll happily reach to 25hz flat and a couple would go to 20hz nicely with a tiny bit of EQ.
Also make sure you invest in some parametric EQ to correct the in-room response of the sub, you can also boost the low end with this. Something like the Behringer BFD, read this guide for more info and graphs on what that gadget does:
http://bfdguide.ws/
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This graph is a before and after example. Blue is the in-room response without EQ and purple is with the BFD in place and setup. This will greatly aid in the overall transparency, eveness and tonality of the bass range.
sjalloq said:
Sealed? Why would you want a sealed design? Then your inviting high levels of THD (progressivly no less) as freq.s decrease.
Well if you must have it:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-150
note: this is closer to what a real subwoofer is:
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/wilson_xs_sub.htm
ScottG said:
Some of the lowest distortion subs are sealed though Scott. I think if you want a smallish enclosure with superb THD and moderate to high output then sealed is a great way to go. Sure you can build that 300ltr+ vented enclosure that's tuned to 20hz but will it sound that much better than the sealed equivalent using parts made for the job? Absolutely not.
Take a look at the AVTalk series of tests on commercial subs:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=4491&SQ=1141338050
And in particular this one
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14722&start=0&rid=4491&SQ=1141338053
Its the Genelec HTS6 with 4 x XLS12's, just look at the THD and SPL specs. Now that is what I call a sub, even your Wilson example would have competition with that.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Some of the lowest distortion subs are sealed though Scott. I think if you want a smallish enclosure with superb THD and moderate to high output then sealed is a great way to go. Sure you can build that 300ltr+ vented enclosure that's tuned to 20hz but will it sound that much better than the sealed equivalent using parts made for the job? Absolutely not.
Take a look at the AVTalk series of tests on commercial subs:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=4491&SQ=1141338050
And in particular this one
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14722&start=0&rid=4491&SQ=1141338053
Its the Genelec HTS6 with 4 x XLS12's, just look at the THD and SPL specs. Now that is what I call a sub, even your Wilson example would have competition with that.
Ah! But what is the passband for their low distortion? I guarantee you its the bass region.. not the subbass region.
40Hz and above the Genlec would trounce the Wilson..but things would change dramatically below 40Hz.
ScottG said:
Hardly. The measurements say it all: 105dB at 10hz and 10% THD? Or 105dB at 20hz and less than 7% THD? I'd like to see wilson figures and especially the groupdelay and phase response for a vented enclosure
All these measurements were taken outside in a wide open area and not in-room.
THD:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Harmonics 2 through 10:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Cumulative Frequency time Spectrum:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
ShinOBIWAN said:
How about the following BK amp? I'm quite open as I'm starting from scratch.
http://www.bkelec.com/MODULES/bsbp500.htm
ShinOBIWAN said:
Hardly. The measurements say it all: 105dB at 10hz and 10% THD? Or 105dB at 20hz and less than 7% THD? I'd like to see wilson figures and especially the groupdelay and phase response for a vented enclosure
All these measurements were taken outside in a wide open area and not in-room.
THD:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Harmonics 2 through 10:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Cumulative Frequency time Spectrum:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Really, it would.. And yes I'd like to see them also. Unfortunetly the drivers are no longer being produced (nor are the subs). I use to have some information on the drivers (they were about 900 US each more than a decade ago).
I also think the information posted there on the Genlec is a little misleading (though I could be wrong). I think the output level was 105 average..NOT at 105 at 10 Hz. If you look at their "Way Down Deep" article you'll see what I'm talking about:
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/604way/index4.html
The difference is how the driver is loaded and what its mechanical resonance is. That resonance with an octave above and below essentially defines the level of distortion for the driver.
Oh, group delay and phase will be worse. At these freq.s, IF phase doesn't suffer much rotation in the passband, neither is an audible problem as long as your phase relationship (and utimatly amplitude) is summed correctly at the crossover freq..
ScottG said:
So your sealed enclosure with high THD generalisation is misleading. That was my only problem with your post as others could misconstrue that information and its simply not true in all cases. I don't want to start a debate on measurements but the figures are plain to see and that is the HTS6 is one the very best subs available. It measures better than the Velo 1812 and certainly better than 95% of the vented or TL subs available. How does it sound? I have no idea
If you want to go infrasonic, sealed subs is the way to go IMO.
Unibox models PR's well.sjalloq said:
Also check this out if you haven't seen it: http://www.vikash.info/audio/xls10/design.asp
ScottG said:
Is this the famous trans Altlantic relationship that the US and UK have then
I think Shino has made a good point, there is a thin line between deep head smashing woofers and higher impact woofers, if you want to get off on the whole lots you need a combination of both, you know people ask are you an leg, *** or breast man, you have to choose what you like best i think.
I am a booty man
ShinOBIWAN said:
So your sealed enclosure with high THD generalisation is misleading. That was my only problem with your post as others could misconstrue that information and its simply not true in all cases. I don't want to start a debate on measurements but the figures are plain to see and that is the HTS6 is one the very best subs available. It measures better than the Velo 1812 and certainly better than 95% of the vented or TL subs available. How does it sound? I have no idea
If you want to go infrasonic, sealed subs is the way to go IMO.
No, not misleading (..or at least not inteded to be).
The concept is this:
Load your low distortion driver in a box where the in-box resonace is either an octave above or below the desired passband. In this instance I'm assuming a passband from 40 Hz down to at least 12-15 Hz.
This means 1 of 2 things.. either:
1. Have an extremely low driver fs (think 5 Hz) AND presumably a VERY large box where the in box resonance is about 5 Hz, OR
2. Use a box and driver combination where the driver's resonance in-box is around 70-80 Hz or higher.
Now for #2 you can have a sealed design or something else.. and I'm suggesting a bass reflex that isn't aligned.
Bag End produces several sub designs where the box is sealed and then eq'ed below that resonance to compensate for the SUBSTANTIAL reduction in output. Typically at anything but low sound pressure levels (averaged) will lead to high distortion levels because of excursion and VC heating - NOT because of the driver's resonance (..nominally, though I think they have problems with this as well). Alternativly of course you could use numerous drivers in this configuration to overcome the spl vs. distortion problem.
Alternativly you could use something like a bass reflex design that is not aligned to reduce excursion levels (though eq. will still be needed, it will be modest by comparison). Say a tuning freq. of 5 Hz with a first-order lowpass for eq. at 5 Hz. (..this up to 40 Hz nets 18db of attenuation for the passband which is MUCH less than what is required for a sealed design.)
Additionally, better performance (with either the sealed design or the non-sealed design) can be obtained by cutting (via the crossover) the freq. response well before it reaches the in-box resonance. Say a low distorion filter like the LR 4th order at 45 Hz low pass.
The Wilson XS almost achieves most of these parameters for a non-sealed design (though the tuning freq. I believe is considerably higher at around 14 Hz). I've seen no other design thats really like this. Considering issues with regard to space vs. box size - I don't think you can do much better. (..the diy'ed "almighty subwoofer" is similar but the port tuning freq. is to high)
Oh, BTW - I do think the Genlec is excellent for its passband - FAR better than anything else I've seen. You might also remember that I mentioned it to you in one of the Perceive threads as being excellent..
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