Many thanks for Your response. I am still a newbie, so please bear with me for a moment. I don't know what info is important, so I will give You everything, hoping You could point me in a right direction.
I bulid this speakers for a friend, as a gift, and they should replace his home theater setup (commercial cheapos, 5 fullrangers + 1 sub), and they should be good for music and for HT. They will be connected to a reciever (still not bought).
I already made boxes (simulated first), some pictures attached. Boxes are still not fully finished, and they are made from 25mm mdf, in two separate enclosures. Upper enclosure will host mid and tweeter, it is closed box with outside dimensions 45x25x35cm, and this enclosure will be mounted (with standoffs) on the top of the bottom one which hosts woofer, vented one with dimensions 80x25x35cm.
Drivers for mid and woofer are the same, Westra KW-160-1394-8, and they have this specs:
Z - 8ohm
Re - 7,4ohm
Vas - 27 liter
Sd - 143 cm sq.
Qts - 0,61
Qms - 2,46
Qes - 0,81
FS - 44 HZ
85db
http://www.dobar-zvuk.hr/hi-fi/westra/hkm/bas-srednjetonci/KW-160-1394-8.pdf
I put mid in a closed encloser with tweeter, hoping this could provide me some kick, and woofer in the vented enclosure with vent about 70mm x 100mm, hoping that vented would give me some deeper bass for HT purposes.
Both cabinets are stuffed.
Tweeter used is Visaton SC10N,
90db,
FS: 1700HZ
Sd:5cm sq
Re: 6,9Ohm
Z: 8Ohm
Le: 0,04
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Now, I almost finished the cabinets, now I need the crossover, and I am not so on a home field here. I have the software, and understand the basics, but lost. Any possible help? Would like to have them good, but not to expensive, of course.
Picture from the simulator attached in the first post is with the mid inverted phase if it means something...
I bulid this speakers for a friend, as a gift, and they should replace his home theater setup (commercial cheapos, 5 fullrangers + 1 sub), and they should be good for music and for HT. They will be connected to a reciever (still not bought).
I already made boxes (simulated first), some pictures attached. Boxes are still not fully finished, and they are made from 25mm mdf, in two separate enclosures. Upper enclosure will host mid and tweeter, it is closed box with outside dimensions 45x25x35cm, and this enclosure will be mounted (with standoffs) on the top of the bottom one which hosts woofer, vented one with dimensions 80x25x35cm.
Drivers for mid and woofer are the same, Westra KW-160-1394-8, and they have this specs:
Z - 8ohm
Re - 7,4ohm
Vas - 27 liter
Sd - 143 cm sq.
Qts - 0,61
Qms - 2,46
Qes - 0,81
FS - 44 HZ
85db
http://www.dobar-zvuk.hr/hi-fi/westra/hkm/bas-srednjetonci/KW-160-1394-8.pdf
I put mid in a closed encloser with tweeter, hoping this could provide me some kick, and woofer in the vented enclosure with vent about 70mm x 100mm, hoping that vented would give me some deeper bass for HT purposes.
Both cabinets are stuffed.
Tweeter used is Visaton SC10N,
90db,
FS: 1700HZ
Sd:5cm sq
Re: 6,9Ohm
Z: 8Ohm
Le: 0,04
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Now, I almost finished the cabinets, now I need the crossover, and I am not so on a home field here. I have the software, and understand the basics, but lost. Any possible help? Would like to have them good, but not to expensive, of course.
Picture from the simulator attached in the first post is with the mid inverted phase if it means something...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If someone has measurement data of the woofer (frequency response, impedance, incl. phase), I'd be happy to simulate your speaker in Boxsim and design a crossover for it. Still not as good as a measurement, but should be better than the software you're currently using. Boxsim is a powerful tool.
Ok, forgot to post the questions, will post them separate to make them visable:
- How to keep drivers from overlaping?
- According to the specs of drivers, points at 100, 100 - 300 and 3000 would be ok?
- Any big loss if I keep woofer first order?
- Smart minimum for mid is third order?
- At 3000 would first order be enough for tweeter or should I go second?
- Would I gain anything if keeping every cut same order, like second?
- BSC, how to do it?
- Anything else?
- How to keep drivers from overlaping?
- According to the specs of drivers, points at 100, 100 - 300 and 3000 would be ok?
- Any big loss if I keep woofer first order?
- Smart minimum for mid is third order?
- At 3000 would first order be enough for tweeter or should I go second?
- Would I gain anything if keeping every cut same order, like second?
- BSC, how to do it?
- Anything else?
If someone has measurement data of the woofer (frequency response, impedance, incl. phase), I'd be happy to simulate your speaker in Boxsim and design a crossover for it. Still not as good as a measurement, but should be better than the software you're currently using. Boxsim is a powerful tool.
I am pretty sure the chances to find anything better than:
http://www.dobar-zvuk.hr/hi-fi/westra/hkm/bas-srednjetonci/KW-160-1394-8.pdf
Is next to none. The company went down, not so meny drivers sold. People that built something with them claim that their performance is actually pretty good, specially in mid. I have no option to measure them. Drivers should be original TVM, but the data I found on their web is a slightly different for the similar driver:
TVM Acoustics, Valašské Meziøíèí - Hlubokotónové
You should remove the highpass crossover of the "midrange".
Also, the point and slope of the woofer lowpass should be chosen according to the baffle step. If possible, you could consider the center to center distance of the two woofers for the highest simultaneously reproduced frequency.
For the first use The Edge, and for the second Xdir - both freeware from Tolvan Data.
With Edge you will determine the size of the series inductor, and with Xdir the size of parallel capacitor that you will put for additional rollof of the woofer hf output further up in frequency where it ceases to create acceptable vertical radiation pattern together with the "mid".
The tweeter crossover is easier... Just find a Visaton project and copy the RLC or whatever correction they use and they always do... Then execute ordinary 2nd or 3rd order crossover on it.
Best regards!
Also, the point and slope of the woofer lowpass should be chosen according to the baffle step. If possible, you could consider the center to center distance of the two woofers for the highest simultaneously reproduced frequency.
For the first use The Edge, and for the second Xdir - both freeware from Tolvan Data.
With Edge you will determine the size of the series inductor, and with Xdir the size of parallel capacitor that you will put for additional rollof of the woofer hf output further up in frequency where it ceases to create acceptable vertical radiation pattern together with the "mid".
The tweeter crossover is easier... Just find a Visaton project and copy the RLC or whatever correction they use and they always do... Then execute ordinary 2nd or 3rd order crossover on it.
Best regards!
You should remove the highpass crossover of the "midrange".
Em, how? Software asks for two settings for mid, low and high, nothing with one of those empty...
[/QUOTE]
Also, the point and slope of the woofer lowpass should be chosen according to the baffle step. If possible, you could consider the center to center distance of the two woofers for the highest simultaneously reproduced frequency.
Altough this sounds to me like You are speaking in Danish, which I understand almost as I understand what dogs are speaking to each other when barking, I have to say, whaaaaat?
Ok, I measure the distance (will it be problem that this two boxes will be distanced by about 3cm, upper will be on distancers) from center to center in mm, I have the value of, lets say 40cm, now what?
[/QUOTE]
For the first use The Edge, and for the second Xdir - both freeware from Tolvan Data.
With Edge you will determine the size of the series inductor, and with Xdir the size of parallel capacitor that you will put for additional rollof of the woofer hf output further up in frequency where it ceases to create acceptable vertical radiation pattern together with the "mid".
The tweeter crossover is easier... Just find a Visaton project and copy the RLC or whatever correction they use and they always do... Then execute ordinary 2nd or 3rd order crossover on it.
Understood. (more or less
![warped :warped: :warped:](https://files.diyaudio.com/forums/images/smilies/warped.gif)
Best regards![/QUOTE]
Here is the site:
Tolvan Data
Lots of free software. Download Xdir and The Edge and start using them, they are very intuitive and simple to use... and by the way, I have some bad news about the baffle step of two 140 mm spaced 400 mm on a 1250x250mm baffle with sharp edges. - ask The Edge![Wink ;) ;)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
1. You can't remove the highpass of the second woofer because you are using the poorest possible software - HT audio...
Download Boxsim, it is freeware and is very good. Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
2. Now the Edge or Boxsim, you can alter crossovers untill you get flat response.
3. Boxsim knows all Visaton drivers, you will choose it from a list, then you will have an actual prediction...
Best Regards!
Tolvan Data
Lots of free software. Download Xdir and The Edge and start using them, they are very intuitive and simple to use... and by the way, I have some bad news about the baffle step of two 140 mm spaced 400 mm on a 1250x250mm baffle with sharp edges. - ask The Edge
1. You can't remove the highpass of the second woofer because you are using the poorest possible software - HT audio...
Download Boxsim, it is freeware and is very good. Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
2. Now the Edge or Boxsim, you can alter crossovers untill you get flat response.
3. Boxsim knows all Visaton drivers, you will choose it from a list, then you will have an actual prediction...
Best Regards!
Hi,
You should build a 2.5 way crossover with that driver arrangement.
To understand why 0.5 way you need to understand baffle step.
rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Software Folder
You should build a 2.5 way crossover with that driver arrangement.
To understand why 0.5 way you need to understand baffle step.
rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Software Folder
Here is the site:
Tolvan Data
Lots of free software. Download Xdir and The Edge and start using them, they are very intuitive and simple to use... and by the way, I have some bad news about the baffle step of two 140 mm spaced 400 mm on a 1250x250mm baffle with sharp edges. - ask The Edge
1. You can't remove the highpass of the second woofer because you are using the poorest possible software - HT audio...
Download Boxsim, it is freeware and is very good. Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
2. Now the Edge or Boxsim, you can alter crossovers untill you get flat response.
3. Boxsim knows all Visaton drivers, you will choose it from a list, then you will have an actual prediction...
Best Regards!
Many thanks again. I can rotate upper cabinet and get the distance between woofers smaller, hope it will help. After all the trouble I passed with making boxes, I did not have any will power left to deal with box sharp edges. Cabinets will have protection covers made with rounded edges, so I hope it will help a bit. I downloaded the software, does not seem so easy to me, looks like a pile of words and numbers left by an aliens as a warning for me. But I will manage around i hope. Somehow.
Hi,
You should build a 2.5 way crossover with that driver arrangement.
To understand why 0.5 way you need to understand baffle step.
rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Software Folder
Ok, many thanks. Back to the drawing board it is...
You don't have to worry! ![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
In your case, sharp edges are an advantage
you see, your boxes will have exactly the diffraction simulated by any software
so you will know the exact cure and the exact amount
not so bad at all.
Two identical woofers in different enclosures is nice again.
Once you get a simulation plot with the Edge and post it here and we'll be off after the crossover![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
Don't give up on the MTM configuration! It'd be nice to have common acoustic center of the lower midbass and tweeter... I always put tweeters in the center of everything... or a decent vent alongside the tweeter that is already In the center of everything... kinda cheat around a bunch of requirements.
Compliments for your woodworking skills!
In your case, sharp edges are an advantage
Two identical woofers in different enclosures is nice again.
Once you get a simulation plot with the Edge and post it here and we'll be off after the crossover
Don't give up on the MTM configuration! It'd be nice to have common acoustic center of the lower midbass and tweeter... I always put tweeters in the center of everything... or a decent vent alongside the tweeter that is already In the center of everything... kinda cheat around a bunch of requirements.
Compliments for your woodworking skills!
Last edited:
You don't have to worry!
In your case, sharp edges are an advantageyou see, your boxes will have exactly the diffraction simulated by any software
so you will know the exact cure and the exact amount
not so bad at all.
The problem of course is that diffraction is not consistent with position- you can't EQ away diffraction because it is an inconsistent phenomenon in 3d.
Ok guys,
I was at a vacation, not home - so I did not work anything on the speakers, but I browsed around trying to seek and learn, mostly failing as most of the online sources for this kind of stuff is written in scifi english, and I am not that good in it to understand. When language issue combines with lack of knowing the terms and what they stand for, it is hard to learn anything. Specially when You do not know where is the starting line.
But, back to the subject, I have a few questions and was hoping to get some guidelines.
I liked Sreten's idea of 2.5 arrangement. It should solve BSC, and if I am right, it should add up to total efficiency (correct me if wrong please). Also, the xover circuit should be easier and cheaper, which I find pleasing, as units are cheap as well.
Now, I am a bit confused about the circuit itself, but I will solve that out by looking others. But confirm if I understood - both woofers are run in paralleil, one crossed at 150 - 200 HZ (width of the baffle is 20cm), another one plays along but continues till it met with tweeter at around 3000 Hz (in this project).
Is this correct?
Now, will it be trouble for this approach if woofers are in different enclosures? Cause one, the one that plays whole way is in the closed cabinet with the tweeter, but another one is in a separate bigger ported part of the cabinet.
I did it to reinforce bass for HT at lower end, and 2.5 arrangement follows my idea by topology of xo it seems to me, but I would need a confirmation.
If I was right till now, or at least corrected, another set of brainstromers I got:
Considering a tweeter is 90db, woofers are 86db, will woofers be more db in this circuit, removing the need to kill few db off of tweeter, but also, will it happen just at range they both plays, and leaving me with the issue of a few db lack in midrange?
Also, will this setup be more demanding to run cause of the paraleil woofers, and would a modern HT receiver be up to task to run them?
Any gain comparing to the 2.5 arrangement if I decide to buy an receiver with an option to dedicate rear channels to biamp the front, and power the woofers in a lower ported enclosure separately? Front speakers ----> Upper closed enclosure, woof + tweet, Rear biamp ----> lower ported, woof.
Many thanks!
I was at a vacation, not home - so I did not work anything on the speakers, but I browsed around trying to seek and learn, mostly failing as most of the online sources for this kind of stuff is written in scifi english, and I am not that good in it to understand. When language issue combines with lack of knowing the terms and what they stand for, it is hard to learn anything. Specially when You do not know where is the starting line.
But, back to the subject, I have a few questions and was hoping to get some guidelines.
I liked Sreten's idea of 2.5 arrangement. It should solve BSC, and if I am right, it should add up to total efficiency (correct me if wrong please). Also, the xover circuit should be easier and cheaper, which I find pleasing, as units are cheap as well.
Now, I am a bit confused about the circuit itself, but I will solve that out by looking others. But confirm if I understood - both woofers are run in paralleil, one crossed at 150 - 200 HZ (width of the baffle is 20cm), another one plays along but continues till it met with tweeter at around 3000 Hz (in this project).
Is this correct?
Now, will it be trouble for this approach if woofers are in different enclosures? Cause one, the one that plays whole way is in the closed cabinet with the tweeter, but another one is in a separate bigger ported part of the cabinet.
I did it to reinforce bass for HT at lower end, and 2.5 arrangement follows my idea by topology of xo it seems to me, but I would need a confirmation.
If I was right till now, or at least corrected, another set of brainstromers I got:
Considering a tweeter is 90db, woofers are 86db, will woofers be more db in this circuit, removing the need to kill few db off of tweeter, but also, will it happen just at range they both plays, and leaving me with the issue of a few db lack in midrange?
Also, will this setup be more demanding to run cause of the paraleil woofers, and would a modern HT receiver be up to task to run them?
Any gain comparing to the 2.5 arrangement if I decide to buy an receiver with an option to dedicate rear channels to biamp the front, and power the woofers in a lower ported enclosure separately? Front speakers ----> Upper closed enclosure, woof + tweet, Rear biamp ----> lower ported, woof.
Many thanks!
Hi,
A 2.5 way will be 86dB in the midband where it meets the tweeter.
It will be 91dB (40hm) in the bass implementing the baffle step.
rgds, sreten.
Ok, how can this be solved then? 91db tweeter, 91db bass, 86db mid? Only by knocking tw and woff, or there is a chance that it my sound good like it is?
Anybody, rest of my upper post?
Thanks!
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