Hi 4fun,
Fair enough. I wasn't disagreeing with you either.
These days I deal with telephone systems and paging. I'm certified for Avaya's VoIP products too. As such, I get to clean out all kinds of computers (and amps). Computers are the least reliable pieces of equipment I deal with. (Hint: buy a purpose built phone switch).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
-Chris
Fair enough. I wasn't disagreeing with you either.
These days I deal with telephone systems and paging. I'm certified for Avaya's VoIP products too. As such, I get to clean out all kinds of computers (and amps). Computers are the least reliable pieces of equipment I deal with. (Hint: buy a purpose built phone switch).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
-Chris
Big convection in PA?
Alesis
IRP
Behringer
Stewart Audio
Burtek
Crown
Bryston
Yorkville Sound
Convection everywhere. The manufacturers want to cash in on the recording studios where noise is a potential factor. Have'nt you heard, PA doesn't mean "Public Address" any more but instead Pro Audio or Pro Amplifier and Pro Application
Public Address is for the shopping malls and department stores
You know, those power amps with mic inputs and twirly knobs
Folks this is a solid discussion, I'd very much like to set up some blind tests here in Toronto. I would like to put the myth to sleep for the audiophiles that just don't get it. It would be nice to slide in some tubes as well. If someone has a good venue I would volunteer some gear and time. I could get some sponsors.
Shawn.
These could be in a rack near you:4fun said:
Alesis
IRP
Behringer
Stewart Audio
Burtek
Crown
Bryston
Yorkville Sound
Convection everywhere. The manufacturers want to cash in on the recording studios where noise is a potential factor. Have'nt you heard, PA doesn't mean "Public Address" any more but instead Pro Audio or Pro Amplifier and Pro Application
Public Address is for the shopping malls and department stores
You know, those power amps with mic inputs and twirly knobsFolks this is a solid discussion, I'd very much like to set up some blind tests here in Toronto. I would like to put the myth to sleep for the audiophiles that just don't get it. It would be nice to slide in some tubes as well. If someone has a good venue I would volunteer some gear and time. I could get some sponsors.
Shawn.
I just got through with about four hours of music in The Bunker...
Fronts: Hafler DH-500
Front Subs: Crown XLS402
Sides: Hafler P230
Rears: Hafler P230
Center: Hafler P230 (bridged)
LFE Subs: Crown XLS602
Input was a Sony SACD/DVD player (cost me about $250 last year...) into a Denon AVR2803 with a Behringer feedback destroyer for the LFE and a FBQ3102 for the fronts, crossing out a pair of 15s at about 125hz.
Good recordings sound very good. Bad recordings... well, it shows.
Huh?
Fronts: Hafler DH-500
Front Subs: Crown XLS402
Sides: Hafler P230
Rears: Hafler P230
Center: Hafler P230 (bridged)
LFE Subs: Crown XLS602
Input was a Sony SACD/DVD player (cost me about $250 last year...) into a Denon AVR2803 with a Behringer feedback destroyer for the LFE and a FBQ3102 for the fronts, crossing out a pair of 15s at about 125hz.
Good recordings sound very good. Bad recordings... well, it shows.
Huh?
Re: Big convection in PA?
I'd love to hear that! Will be interesting.
Choosing the pro amps shouldn't be too hard, but what about the Hi-Fi amps?
So many to choose from.
And if you guys are going to be playing AC/DC greatest hits on big, inefficient speakers - I can tell you right now who will win.
Really, it's going to be tough choosing speakers, as that could easily tilt the test one way or the other.
TomWaits said:
I'd love to hear that! Will be interesting.
Choosing the pro amps shouldn't be too hard, but what about the Hi-Fi amps?
So many to choose from.
And if you guys are going to be playing AC/DC greatest hits on big, inefficient speakers - I can tell you right now who will win.
Really, it's going to be tough choosing speakers, as that could easily tilt the test one way or the other.
Re: Big convection in PA?
I resort to PRO amps, but big ones with convection cooling I cannot find among your suggested ones.
But i think it's not an issue, as you can mod PRO amps for suitability in home enviroments with more quiet fans, intelligent fan control etc.
TomWaits said:
These could be in a rack near you:
Alesis
IRP
Behringer
Stewart Audio
Burtek
Crown
Bryston
Yorkville Sound
Convection everywhere. The manufacturers want to cash in on the recording studios where noise is a potential factor. Have'nt you heard, PA doesn't mean "Public Address" any more but instead Pro Audio or Pro Amplifier and Pro Application
Public Address is for the shopping malls and department stores
Folks this is a solid discussion, I'd very much like to set up some blind tests here in Toronto. I would like to put the myth to sleep for the audiophiles that just don't get it. It would be nice to slide in some tubes as well. If someone has a good venue I would volunteer some gear and time. I could get some sponsors.
Shawn.
I resort to PRO amps, but big ones with convection cooling I cannot find among your suggested ones.
But i think it's not an issue, as you can mod PRO amps for suitability in home enviroments with more quiet fans, intelligent fan control etc.
Hi Shawn,
I think the blind testing would show the big differences. I do know that extended listening would better show these amps up. I guess a variation on A-B testing would be "black box" testing. The reviewer would not know what amp is inside the black boxes as there are replaced, but could then comment on the sound more effectively over the course of a couple days for each amp.
Not really doable in one venue over the course of a few hours. What are your thoughts on this?
-Chris
I think the blind testing would show the big differences. I do know that extended listening would better show these amps up. I guess a variation on A-B testing would be "black box" testing. The reviewer would not know what amp is inside the black boxes as there are replaced, but could then comment on the sound more effectively over the course of a couple days for each amp.
Not really doable in one venue over the course of a few hours. What are your thoughts on this?
-Chris
Re: Re: Big convection in PA?
IRP PA series
Behringer A500
Stewart All of their amps are convection cooled
Burtek AT500
Crown D series
Bryston All of their amps are convection cooled
Yorkville CR and SR series
I can’t believe you made me look up those numbers but I will always be willing to pull in the slack around here. Just don’t ask me to pick your clothes up off the floor.
Chris, how long did you listen to source material inside the stereo shop before purchasing your most expensive amplifier; 15 minutes, an hour, 3 hours, 2 twelve hour days back to back? A two day open venue with timed and scheduled listening tests would do the trick for any devoted enthusiast. Don’t you think?
Now speaker selection and set up, that’s a b-ugger but it can be done. I’m talking about a large venue with multiple audition rooms, one or two blind test rooms, theatre room, PA room and general lounge and display area. “Trade Showish” with the interest of the end consumer and audiophile fun included. Give the vendors and opportunity to compete fairly and they will line up and sponsor. I don’t have the time to put the entire thing together but I would volunteer a serious chunk of my life if the project had the right intentions. I figure a year of planning and soliciting with a big crunch in the final weeks would get it done. A big audio social or symposium, if you will. Well, this is off topic so if there are people with balls to make this happen, just email me direct as I would love to discuss this further.
Jah,
Shawn.
Alesis RA series4fun said:
IRP PA series
Behringer A500
Stewart All of their amps are convection cooled
Burtek AT500
Crown D series
Bryston All of their amps are convection cooled
Yorkville CR and SR series
I can’t believe you made me look up those numbers but I will always be willing to pull in the slack around here.
Just don’t ask me to pick your clothes up off the floor. anatech said:
Chris, how long did you listen to source material inside the stereo shop before purchasing your most expensive amplifier; 15 minutes, an hour, 3 hours, 2 twelve hour days back to back? A two day open venue with timed and scheduled listening tests would do the trick for any devoted enthusiast. Don’t you think?
Now speaker selection and set up, that’s a b-ugger but it can be done. I’m talking about a large venue with multiple audition rooms, one or two blind test rooms, theatre room, PA room and general lounge and display area. “Trade Showish” with the interest of the end consumer and audiophile fun included. Give the vendors and opportunity to compete fairly and they will line up and sponsor. I don’t have the time to put the entire thing together but I would volunteer a serious chunk of my life if the project had the right intentions. I figure a year of planning and soliciting with a big crunch in the final weeks would get it done. A big audio social or symposium, if you will. Well, this is off topic so if there are people with balls to make this happen, just email me direct as I would love to discuss this further.
Jah,
Shawn.
Yeah, maybe I'm lazy and haven't searched thoroughly, but I didn't notice this yet in the thread: How is everyone connecting these balanced inputs to the unbalanced outputs on their home audio gear?
I know you can rig an XLR to RCA cable, but are we losing anything in the translation? I assume these aren't "true" balanced devices though, which I believe require transformers on each end, not Op Amps, so maybe it doesn't matter, or maybe it's worse.
I know you can rig an XLR to RCA cable, but are we losing anything in the translation? I assume these aren't "true" balanced devices though, which I believe require transformers on each end, not Op Amps, so maybe it doesn't matter, or maybe it's worse.
I may be wrong but many(not all) pro amps have both. 1/4" unbalanced and balanced XLR inputs? I've been listening to a TOA P300D at home since December and it has both inputs.xyrium said:
What the heck is wrong with op amps? You like XFMR only? You a tube guy or something?
I like the cut of yer jib.Shawn.
TomWaits,
blind testing is an excellent idea, I wished I can attend just to see the crowd and how the event turns out.
Setting up the event might be one thing though, are we talking about an all active setup? or going through each amp with a popular passive speaker? Room treatment and active equalization?
I'd love to be able to help, but I'm all the way in southern california.
blind testing is an excellent idea, I wished I can attend just to see the crowd and how the event turns out.
Setting up the event might be one thing though, are we talking about an all active setup? or going through each amp with a popular passive speaker? Room treatment and active equalization?
I'd love to be able to help, but I'm all the way in southern california.
TomWaits said:
I may be wrong but many(not all) pro amps have both. 1/4" unbalanced and balanced XLR inputs? I've been listening to a TOA P300D at home since December and it has both inputs.
What the heck is wrong with op amps? You like XFMR only? You a tube guy or something?
Shawn.
Hey, nothing is wrong with Op Amps, though I was under the impression that they were inferior to xformer-based balanced designs. I'm only asserting my very limited knowledge on the subject.
However, those 1/4 connectors are usually TRS connectors, and thus balanced. You can wire TS or XLRs to work with RCAs, but I get the feeling that taking this shortcut will increase the noise level of the amplifier.
I was looking at the QSC PLX1802 because it seemed to have good specs in THD and S/N....hmmmm, very curious about this PowerLight stuff. .the sticker on the back even says "Made in the USA"...how odd.
Transformer inputs are rare these days, it's cheaper and lighter to do it with opamps. Transformer inputs are some times offered as an option.
A lot of pro amps have both XLR and 1/4" TRS connections. You can usually use the 1/4" with a mono connector for unbalanced with no problem. Same goes for most mixing consoles.
A lot of pro amps have both XLR and 1/4" TRS connections. You can usually use the 1/4" with a mono connector for unbalanced with no problem. Same goes for most mixing consoles.
Input impedance of pro gear is generaly 10K~15K. 10K is very common. Consumer gear is usually higher, I think. (Someone here will know)
The low input impedance helps keep noise low - balanced or not. That's very important in "pro" enviroments.
Most sources I've used have no problem driving 10K.
The low input impedance helps keep noise low - balanced or not. That's very important in "pro" enviroments.
Most sources I've used have no problem driving 10K.
Re: Re: Re: Big convection in PA?
Ok, some of them are fairly big and convection cooled. But I do not consider a amp in the class of behringer A500 to be big. It's all about how to define "big".
I will ceep my clothes off the floor, thank you
TomWaits said:
Alesis RA series
IRP PA series
Behringer A500
Stewart All of their amps are convection cooled
Burtek AT500
Crown D series
Bryston All of their amps are convection cooled
Yorkville CR and SR series
I can’t believe you made me look up those numbers but I will always be willing to pull in the slack around here.
Ok, some of them are fairly big and convection cooled. But I do not consider a amp in the class of behringer A500 to be big. It's all about how to define "big".
I will ceep my clothes off the floor, thank you
xyrium said:
You can do true ballanced with op-amps very easily. Its sometimes referred to as servo-ballanced. If you ground one of the ballanced outputs the signal doubled on the other output.
And you won't lose anything going from unbal to bal except CMNR, you're running the signal through the same circuitry just with one of the inputs tied to ground.
In a home the CMNR really shouldn't make a difference, its when you've got 50m of cable between the amp and the thing feeding it that pickup noise can be an issue.
Transformer ballanced does give true electrical isolation but thats rarely needed. Useful for mics though.
Crowns K amps are convection cooled by my word do they get HOT.
Hi xyrium,
Transformer inputs are often used with very low level dynamic mic inputs for the noise performance. Expensive (well designed) electronic circuits can do the same thing. It doesn't take much of a mismatch to throw out the CMRR figure.
As for balanced to single ended conversion, home audio products go from completely improperly done to done the right way. For the home system, single ended is often the proper choice. There are some situations or products that will be better balanced.
Hey Shawn,
Keep me in the loop. Just to meet other members if nothing else.
As for amp choices, I normally listen over a period of time (on the bench) before making a purchase. I have on occasion heard a winner and decided within 10 minutes.
-Chris
Transformer inputs are often used with very low level dynamic mic inputs for the noise performance. Expensive (well designed) electronic circuits can do the same thing. It doesn't take much of a mismatch to throw out the CMRR figure.
As for balanced to single ended conversion, home audio products go from completely improperly done to done the right way. For the home system, single ended is often the proper choice. There are some situations or products that will be better balanced.
Hey Shawn,
Keep me in the loop. Just to meet other members if nothing else.
As for amp choices, I normally listen over a period of time (on the bench) before making a purchase. I have on occasion heard a winner and decided within 10 minutes.
-Chris
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