Fired Up! I await with great anticipation.
Like a mentioned before, a lot of your design approaches make sense, especially for Your BMR's
This is quoted from post #323 on http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/191853-near-full-range-bmr-balanced-mode-radiator-33.html
Looking at my criteria in the post above, it looks like your drivers fit the requirements quite well. How low could I go with them? I have seen anywhere between 100 Hz and 300 Hz mentioned, depending on the system at hand, but I do not think anyone has built a 24 driver floor to ceiling array with them either. I am assuming they outperform every driver I am considering in terms of off-axis response. The CSD is one of the best I have seen.
I am pretty open when it comes to DACs, DSPs and Amps, as I will be slowly acquiring those as I get this project up and running. I have a Twisted Pair Buffalo III DAC kit that is not assembled. It looks like I will need to get some additional I/V stages and assemble this for the driver blowouts, especially the two-way designs, as I do not want the harsh highs of my Realtek DAC getting in the way. I eventually wanted to add a DSP to the Buffalo, as I noticed with the more complicated convolutions in JRiver, I did not have enough processing power for smooth video playback. Naturally, I was thinking of adding the miniDSP miniSHARC kit. But I was also considering this build which is still under development. It has a better SHARC chip:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...-integrated-preamp-crossover-dac-project.html
I think this will be a great product, but not Manchester University with a TI TMS320C6748 Chip or the like!
As I mentioned before, I am eventually planning on getting the Hypex N-core for amps.
This will not happen overnight, and does not really need to, as it is going to take some time to build the cabinets and chassis for these components and of course, earn the money to invest. The driver blow-outs are going to be an adventure all in its self.
It sounds like an awesome adventure.
Allen
Tech spec catch up.
Hi Allen,
I am not managing to keep up your technical questions....You can ask them faster than I can answer them...!
In no particular order, and specifically looking at your room dimensions:
(1) Whilst I would love to hear 24 Silk BMR's in an array in your room, it really would be overkill, and it takes a lot for me to say that!
Also the min height would be 2,750 assuming a two piece modular construction (12 BMR per cabinet) with floor spikes and low profile brass connection disks (Star sound Technologies - Sistrum gear is fab) so that would be too tall?
(2) I have in mind a lower cost but killer performance line array design for your room.....Four 12 inch drivers with 9 BMR's per side. Each 12 inch (sealed of course) sub sits in 23 liters of air (including driver and damping volume) and is 350mm tall. So twin subs, then 9 BMRs and then twin subs.
(3) Modular construction allows easy construction & handling with flexibility ie build and grow system as funds become available.Total height just under 2,600mm....Perfect!
(4) 200Hz crossover from BMR's to bass / mid-drivers. Important point here. The BMR's are only driven above the box / driver resonance, plus the bass / mids are only driven below the box / driver resonance. I can not stress enough how vital this is. All drivers in sealed box with precise 0.707 Q.
Eq again is essential. The bass drivers are not standard units, they are special OEM design with Linen surround, powerful Neo motor and a free air Fs above 40Hz....That should confuse the cookbook design traditionalists
In a few weeks a well respected USA forum member is coming here for a demo, he will hear a six BMR array with a smaller bass / mid system. I am sure he will report on the dynamics, SPL, transients and 3D capabilities of the "smaller" system......The 6 BMR array is a scary beast so rest assured a 9 driver quad sub ( each side!) system will be astonishing....
As per, running short of time here, but more soon.
D.
Hi Allen,
I am not managing to keep up your technical questions....You can ask them faster than I can answer them...!
In no particular order, and specifically looking at your room dimensions:
(1) Whilst I would love to hear 24 Silk BMR's in an array in your room, it really would be overkill, and it takes a lot for me to say that!
Also the min height would be 2,750 assuming a two piece modular construction (12 BMR per cabinet) with floor spikes and low profile brass connection disks (Star sound Technologies - Sistrum gear is fab) so that would be too tall?
(2) I have in mind a lower cost but killer performance line array design for your room.....Four 12 inch drivers with 9 BMR's per side. Each 12 inch (sealed of course) sub sits in 23 liters of air (including driver and damping volume) and is 350mm tall. So twin subs, then 9 BMRs and then twin subs.
(3) Modular construction allows easy construction & handling with flexibility ie build and grow system as funds become available.Total height just under 2,600mm....Perfect!
(4) 200Hz crossover from BMR's to bass / mid-drivers. Important point here. The BMR's are only driven above the box / driver resonance, plus the bass / mids are only driven below the box / driver resonance. I can not stress enough how vital this is. All drivers in sealed box with precise 0.707 Q.
Eq again is essential. The bass drivers are not standard units, they are special OEM design with Linen surround, powerful Neo motor and a free air Fs above 40Hz....That should confuse the cookbook design traditionalists
In a few weeks a well respected USA forum member is coming here for a demo, he will hear a six BMR array with a smaller bass / mid system. I am sure he will report on the dynamics, SPL, transients and 3D capabilities of the "smaller" system......The 6 BMR array is a scary beast so rest assured a 9 driver quad sub ( each side!) system will be astonishing....
As per, running short of time here, but more soon.
D.
DSP, DAC's & Amps
Hi Allen,
By the time you have down all your driver comparisons and selected your favorites we should have all our ducks in a row with the DSP / DAC's and power amps.
Then you will have the choice....Build with the best conventional drivers or take a leap of faith on the BMR's....
There will be some pretty heavyweight reviews of our studio monitors available (along with much requested polar responses...Yea!) by the end of the summer so that leap might be more of an easy step!
One bit of good news that I can now confirm for the DIY market, we will be keeping the CIA brand for a range of part assembled custom Install products as well as high end kits.
We are re-branding the finished commercial products under cooler and less controversial (CIA aint so popular in a lot of countries!) brand name.
This allows us to separate the high end finished products from the modular " flat pack" kits for the custom installers and thee DIY kit markets. There will some tech unique to the commercial products, but some killer tech in the CI products.
Not able to give precise dates for availability / models at this stage, but after the reviews for the commercial gear goes public we will have trickle down technology available for you and your fellow "serious" DIY guys!!
All the best
Derek.
Hi Allen,
By the time you have down all your driver comparisons and selected your favorites we should have all our ducks in a row with the DSP / DAC's and power amps.
Then you will have the choice....Build with the best conventional drivers or take a leap of faith on the BMR's....
There will be some pretty heavyweight reviews of our studio monitors available (along with much requested polar responses...Yea!) by the end of the summer so that leap might be more of an easy step!
One bit of good news that I can now confirm for the DIY market, we will be keeping the CIA brand for a range of part assembled custom Install products as well as high end kits.
We are re-branding the finished commercial products under cooler and less controversial (CIA aint so popular in a lot of countries!) brand name.
This allows us to separate the high end finished products from the modular " flat pack" kits for the custom installers and thee DIY kit markets. There will some tech unique to the commercial products, but some killer tech in the CI products.
Not able to give precise dates for availability / models at this stage, but after the reviews for the commercial gear goes public we will have trickle down technology available for you and your fellow "serious" DIY guys!!
All the best
Derek.
I'd say you would want a specimen of the BMR too for this test round of drivers.
No matter what you end up choosing, you'd have to like it to want to build an array of it. You basically get the same speaker on steroids if you array it.
Don't shy out from using a form of EQ during these tests. Get measurements as well to learn what does what. You'll never find all the answers at once but might learn something new. Also give each driver time enough. Don't decide on a short impression.
Derek: I kind of envy the road you're on, must be a blast to have these things cooking!
Hope to see more data from you soon! I'd wish you had a drop in 3.5" BMR for me to try (lol).
No matter what you end up choosing, you'd have to like it to want to build an array of it. You basically get the same speaker on steroids if you array it.
Don't shy out from using a form of EQ during these tests. Get measurements as well to learn what does what. You'll never find all the answers at once but might learn something new. Also give each driver time enough. Don't decide on a short impression.
Derek: I kind of envy the road you're on, must be a blast to have these things cooking!
Hope to see more data from you soon! I'd wish you had a drop in 3.5" BMR for me to try (lol).
I agree 100%. When I listened to one of my NSB drivers by itself, I was not too impressed. They got more impressive, the more drivers I added to the line. So I can only imagine what an array would be like if I started with a driver I really liked singularly.
After reading all that jazz about BMR's I have to try one now!
By the way, Wesayso, Do not underestimate what You have accomplished with your "Two Towers" Vifa array. You have taken that concept to higher and higher levels of greatness and You have the measurements to back it up! It has been quite an inspiration to me and many others on this forum, and I am sure others we do not know about. From reading about Derek's journey, it seems to me, You are on the same path, just earlier in the journey. I think You have something, just a different market then Derek's. Stay the course and You will get there. I, like You, would like to see more info and discussion on the TG9 and 10F driver options, but then again, there is always the possibility of a few refinements designed into the TC9 also!
A propitiatory driver?
Not overkill for near field listening...
Actually, not overkill at all if I am building Near Field Line Arrays as per Jams R. Griffin's white paper. I should have communicated that better, my fault. I have considered adding "line" to the title of this thread: All Aspiring Full-Range Line Array project. (it just does not flow as nice and is too much to say in one breath)
Your 9 speaker BMR has a length of 1200 mm, which at a listening distance of 2 meters (if the speakers are placed in the side wall locations as per my drawing), would drop out of the near field (-3dB per doubling of distance) at about 800 Hz, and below that act like a point source down to 200 Hz. I can only speculate that the four bass units would be the same, as they are a "broken" line, but there is room gain and the such messing with the math. What You have designed is a stellar floor to ceiling D'appolito, or WTW arrangement. Actually, this design is perfect for the Sound Production market You are targeting, where the system is EQed for the listening couch (as it will still have a broad listening spot at that distance). As I listen to my system on the couch, in front of the couch, on the floor in front of the TV (especially when my daughter and I game together), standing up, dancing around the room and even laying down on the floor resting after a 15 hour shift, a true near field line array is what I am aspiring to build.
Also, I have come to realize that the line source behavior is what gives the sound stage the "You are here" feeling verses a "You are there" feeling. As I am 100% blind in my right eye, and have been since birth, I have a very acute perception of 3D in terms of hearing. It is something I listen for in systems and it is something I help my musician friends create in their final mixes, eventhough they really do not understand it. When I listen to a point source speaker, it sounds like the sound is coming out of an open window (or the TV in my living room). It can have all the sound stage depth in the world, but it sounds like listening through an open window. The sound is "over there". When I started building my NSB arrays, I started with four drivers on each side, the window got bigger, but still a window. Once I used up all the drivers (15/cabinet), we started to get something more realistic, as if the front wall was removed from my living room, the sound is now "over here" in my room with me. In am now almost outside where the action is.
"Almost" because With my 15 driver/channel array at about 1500 meters is in the near field down to 500 Hz, so it still falls short in that realm, but it is a lot closer to my goal then my Avebury system. Thankfully, I do not have to build a 4 meter tall array to get the 80 Hz I am after. According to James Griffin, I just need 85% of 2690 mm (2287 mm) to "mirror" the array length. I am going for the full ceiling height, however, because Wesayso mentioned on his thread that he may have been getting some ceiling interference due to his array not being ceiling height. As this is an All Aspiring project, we are going all out.
Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I really felt You deserved to know my deep passion regarding this as You where so kind to take the time out of your busy schedule to design the awesome monitoring system You did. But this is not a rejection so much as it is encouragement to go with the true floor to ceiling array, which seems like unexplored territory for You also.
I remember reading something on the BMR thread about experiencing a "light" mid-bass in the BMR's. Could this be because the arrays where too short? The mid-highs being in the near field and the mid-bass being in the far field? The mid-bass can be EQed up, but that puts extra strain on the drivers, why not "array" up?
Golly, I am already being a "tough" customer!
Below is the chart I referenced from James Griffin's White Paper regarding near field listening distances.
Here is the link:
http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/nflawp.pdf
Actually, not overkill at all if I am building Near Field Line Arrays as per Jams R. Griffin's white paper. I should have communicated that better, my fault. I have considered adding "line" to the title of this thread: All Aspiring Full-Range Line Array project. (it just does not flow as nice and is too much to say in one breath
)Your 9 speaker BMR has a length of 1200 mm, which at a listening distance of 2 meters (if the speakers are placed in the side wall locations as per my drawing), would drop out of the near field (-3dB per doubling of distance) at about 800 Hz, and below that act like a point source down to 200 Hz. I can only speculate that the four bass units would be the same, as they are a "broken" line, but there is room gain and the such messing with the math. What You have designed is a stellar floor to ceiling D'appolito, or WTW arrangement. Actually, this design is perfect for the Sound Production market You are targeting, where the system is EQed for the listening couch (as it will still have a broad listening spot at that distance). As I listen to my system on the couch, in front of the couch, on the floor in front of the TV (especially when my daughter and I game together), standing up, dancing around the room and even laying down on the floor resting after a 15 hour shift, a true near field line array is what I am aspiring to build.
Also, I have come to realize that the line source behavior is what gives the sound stage the "You are here" feeling verses a "You are there" feeling. As I am 100% blind in my right eye, and have been since birth, I have a very acute perception of 3D in terms of hearing. It is something I listen for in systems and it is something I help my musician friends create in their final mixes, eventhough they really do not understand it. When I listen to a point source speaker, it sounds like the sound is coming out of an open window (or the TV in my living room). It can have all the sound stage depth in the world, but it sounds like listening through an open window. The sound is "over there". When I started building my NSB arrays, I started with four drivers on each side, the window got bigger, but still a window. Once I used up all the drivers (15/cabinet), we started to get something more realistic, as if the front wall was removed from my living room, the sound is now "over here" in my room with me. In am now almost outside where the action is.
"Almost" because With my 15 driver/channel array at about 1500 meters is in the near field down to 500 Hz, so it still falls short in that realm, but it is a lot closer to my goal then my Avebury system. Thankfully, I do not have to build a 4 meter tall array to get the 80 Hz I am after. According to James Griffin, I just need 85% of 2690 mm (2287 mm) to "mirror" the array length. I am going for the full ceiling height, however, because Wesayso mentioned on his thread that he may have been getting some ceiling interference due to his array not being ceiling height. As this is an All Aspiring project, we are going all out.
Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I really felt You deserved to know my deep passion regarding this as You where so kind to take the time out of your busy schedule to design the awesome monitoring system You did. But this is not a rejection so much as it is encouragement to go with the true floor to ceiling array, which seems like unexplored territory for You also.
I remember reading something on the BMR thread about experiencing a "light" mid-bass in the BMR's. Could this be because the arrays where too short? The mid-highs being in the near field and the mid-bass being in the far field? The mid-bass can be EQed up, but that puts extra strain on the drivers, why not "array" up?
Golly, I am already being a "tough" customer!
Below is the chart I referenced from James Griffin's White Paper regarding near field listening distances.
Here is the link:
http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/nflawp.pdf
Attachments
I agree 100%. When I listened to one of my NSB drivers by itself, I was not too impressed. They got more impressive, the more drivers I added to the line. So I can only imagine what an array would be like if I started with a driver I really liked singularly.
After reading all that jazz about BMR's I have to try one now!
By the way, Wesayso, Do not underestimate what You have accomplished with your "Two Towers" Vifa array. You have taken that concept to higher and higher levels of greatness and You have the measurements to back it up! It has been quite an inspiration to me and many others on this forum, and I am sure others we do not know about. From reading about Derek's journey, it seems to me, You are on the same path, just earlier in the journey. I think You have something, just a different market then Derek's. Stay the course and You will get there. I, like You, would like to see more info and discussion on the TG9 and 10F driver options, but then again, there is always the possibility of a few refinements designed into the TC9 also!
I'm not giving up yet, hey, I'm just getting started
. Lots more to come I'm sure!I'm intrigued by the BMR's too, that's why I mentioned them to you a few pages back. I'd like to see and read more on them, with measurements.
The TG and 10F are also good options. But the funny little TC9 sister does do some things better than those two. At least by judging what is out there information wise.
Tymphany has got a raw diamond there, but they do not seem to be on the path to treasure them. If you look at the new models they seem to go in an entirely different way, abandoning these great little performers. No doubt the market asks for even smaller speakers as these used to be aimed for TV sets.
18, 20 with spikes or 24 without...
Also, what is the purpose of the spikes? I have thick padded soft woolly carpet in my living room, I have never felt I needed spikes. Some claim they are audiophile marketing "snake oil" but I seriously doubt You would fall for that, so I am curious what your reasoning is. Also, I would prefer the main array to be one solid object, mainly so there is not a break in my mosaic, (also good thief prevention). But I am curious to see the brass jointing mechanism. I am assuming it does not put a "space" in the driver spacing of the array.
If the spikes are essential, we could go with 18 of your BMR's or better yet, 20.
Below, I have included some photos of my multi-wood hard woods "mosaics" so you know what I am talking about. I will build the cabinets out of Baltic Birch then I glue the hardwoods on top of the completed cabinets. I have this thing with hard wood patterns.
Also, what is the purpose of the spikes? I have thick padded soft woolly carpet in my living room, I have never felt I needed spikes. Some claim they are audiophile marketing "snake oil" but I seriously doubt You would fall for that, so I am curious what your reasoning is. Also, I would prefer the main array to be one solid object, mainly so there is not a break in my mosaic, (also good thief prevention). But I am curious to see the brass jointing mechanism. I am assuming it does not put a "space" in the driver spacing of the array.
If the spikes are essential, we could go with 18 of your BMR's or better yet, 20.
Below, I have included some photos of my multi-wood hard woods "mosaics" so you know what I am talking about. I will build the cabinets out of Baltic Birch then I glue the hardwoods on top of the completed cabinets. I have this thing with hard wood patterns.
Attachments
I have been reading between the arguments on X's thread, and I agree with You, the TG and 10F just do not seem significantly better, esp in off axis dispersion, and that is pretty important, hence the intrigue of BMR's...
"The new TVs sound awful", and that is directly quoted from several clients of mine, who are over 70 years old and female to boot! They could not give a rats a$$ about the kind of sound we seek, but they still know dead awful sound when they hear it!
I would almost be tempted to get a representative of Tymphany to hear your system. At 50 drivers a pop, maybe they could work on a refined driver for this type of system. They sure could move a lot of product esp to home theatre buffs who could fit your line arrays on all 7 channels, with their subs. I think your arrays have good WAF also, due to the small foot print and the classy design. Some may want to pick their colored grill cloth to go over the aluminum, (with the aluminum still shining through, a cool effect in itself), but I think it would fly. What does your better half think?
AILA...... "Awe Inspiring Line Array"....!
Ok Allen....Lets build a beast!
I think she should be called "AILA" - Awe Inspiring Line Array!
24 BMR's per side ($$$!) if you can fit in the 2,774mm height(?) with a sister line of 6 twelve inch bass / mids ($$) is going to be a world class set up.
To be honest, the $$$ cost is going to be so high I would be uncomfortable building this (supplying the cabinet design, drivers / DSP /DAC's / amplifiers) for you unless you can arrange to hear one of my smaller systems first.
So it will take a bit of time, but I am speaking with a few potential USA distributors with a view to getting something Stateside in the Autumn.
They are coming to the UK in August early Sept for a series of demos covering several market sectors.
The alternative is you fly over to the UK....Bring your daughter and you can get her opinion of how music, movies and Xbox sounds with a total of 74 BMR's over 5 channels plus twin 15 inch subs and an extra 12 inch sub for good measure......Well hey, my lounge is open plan so I need to drive the whole house, right!!!!
Cheers
Derek.
Ok Allen....Lets build a beast!
I think she should be called "AILA" - Awe Inspiring Line Array!
24 BMR's per side ($$$!) if you can fit in the 2,774mm height(?) with a sister line of 6 twelve inch bass / mids ($$) is going to be a world class set up.
To be honest, the $$$ cost is going to be so high I would be uncomfortable building this (supplying the cabinet design, drivers / DSP /DAC's / amplifiers) for you unless you can arrange to hear one of my smaller systems first.
So it will take a bit of time, but I am speaking with a few potential USA distributors with a view to getting something Stateside in the Autumn.
They are coming to the UK in August early Sept for a series of demos covering several market sectors.
The alternative is you fly over to the UK....Bring your daughter and you can get her opinion of how music, movies and Xbox sounds with a total of 74 BMR's over 5 channels plus twin 15 inch subs and an extra 12 inch sub for good measure......Well hey, my lounge is open plan so I need to drive the whole house, right!!!!
Cheers
Derek.
EEEk, speaking of clients, I had better get that yard done before I blow out my sleeping schedule for tonight's 10 hour shift!
This is where this hobby can get us into trouble
I still got to pick Derek's brain some more about 3" BMR's, Sd and the such...
Maybe tomorrow, AFTER the yards are done, so that might be the day after tomorrow in your hemisphere.
Have a great day!
Allen
speaking of clients, I had better get that yard done before I blow out my sleeping schedule for tonight's 10 hour shift!This is where this hobby can get us into trouble
I still got to pick Derek's brain some more about 3" BMR's, Sd and the such...
Maybe tomorrow, AFTER the yards are done, so that might be the day after tomorrow in your hemisphere.
Have a great day!
Allen
Missed this post...
20 per side will be more than enough. I run 16 per side with a 2.25m ceiling height, very heavy / deep pile rug on the floor and no reflections at all.
A one piece cabinet will need spikes...The Star Sound Technology spikes are well worth the cost.
I used the big Sistrum speaker stands on all my big speakers, the attached bass cabinets were 130Kg each before the head units and Stands....
Plus various connectors and footer on other bits of gear. It all works very effectively.
The last thing you want is to have your array on soft rubber feet or just sitting on top of a floor or carpet.
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
All that surface area of drivers...When that all shoots forward to compress the air on a transient, that energy is trying to push the speaker cabinet backward....Even the tiniest "rocking" will soften and blur transients....Bad distortion.!
One must anchor the cabinets very securely into the solid flooring (pierce through any rugs / carpets) and have ( in my experience) at least 1,000 times the moving mass of the drivers in cabinet weight to overcome any rocking motion. My silk BMR's have a Mms of 6.03g so the min cabinet weight must be 60Kg to avoid rocking.
An even better solution (but not in your room / situation) is to securely wall mount the cabinets, then the cabinets take on the infinite mass" of the wall....Plus avoid all baffle step issues, rear wall reflections, benefit from boundary reinforcement and greatly reduce room reflection issues....shame you cant wall mount them!!
Spk soon and all the best
Derek.
20 per side will be more than enough. I run 16 per side with a 2.25m ceiling height, very heavy / deep pile rug on the floor and no reflections at all.
A one piece cabinet will need spikes...The Star Sound Technology spikes are well worth the cost.
I used the big Sistrum speaker stands on all my big speakers, the attached bass cabinets were 130Kg each before the head units and Stands....
Plus various connectors and footer on other bits of gear. It all works very effectively.
The last thing you want is to have your array on soft rubber feet or just sitting on top of a floor or carpet.
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
All that surface area of drivers...When that all shoots forward to compress the air on a transient, that energy is trying to push the speaker cabinet backward....Even the tiniest "rocking" will soften and blur transients....Bad distortion.!
One must anchor the cabinets very securely into the solid flooring (pierce through any rugs / carpets) and have ( in my experience) at least 1,000 times the moving mass of the drivers in cabinet weight to overcome any rocking motion. My silk BMR's have a Mms of 6.03g so the min cabinet weight must be 60Kg to avoid rocking.
An even better solution (but not in your room / situation) is to securely wall mount the cabinets, then the cabinets take on the infinite mass" of the wall....Plus avoid all baffle step issues, rear wall reflections, benefit from boundary reinforcement and greatly reduce room reflection issues....shame you cant wall mount them!!
Spk soon and all the best
Derek.
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AILA or build my own...
No doubt. I am guessing your complete AILA system is in the $$,$$$ range. I originally was planning on building this piece by piece. I figured once I knew the drivers I wanted, I would slowly acquire them as I build the cabinets, as the cabinets will take some time. By "slowly" I was thinking over the course of the summer and fall. When winter hits here, all discretionary money goes to keeping the house warm for listening tests. Then once summer hits again, I take the next step, buying the proper amps for the speakers. I am sure I can "squeeze in" the rest of the components for the Buffalo DAC in the near future, esp if this project goes on the path of being a two-way array. I am thinking, over the course of about 3-5 years (bearing in mind building additional surround arrays), my piece together DIY system would cost the higher $,$$$ range and maybe break the $$,$$$ mark.
I think the AILA system would probably out perform anything I could build from scratch, yet I am not sure if I want to give up the adventure of building my own system.
I just wish I could hear a BMR, to see if this is what I want to do. I have relatives in England, so that part would work. I just have to wait until I have enough vacation time acquired to take a trip like that - that would be the beginning of next summer, as I would like at least ten days. So we have plenty of time to contemplate...
Allen
No doubt. I am guessing your complete AILA system is in the $$,$$$ range. I originally was planning on building this piece by piece. I figured once I knew the drivers I wanted, I would slowly acquire them as I build the cabinets, as the cabinets will take some time. By "slowly" I was thinking over the course of the summer and fall. When winter hits here, all discretionary money goes to keeping the house warm for listening tests.
Then once summer hits again, I take the next step, buying the proper amps for the speakers. I am sure I can "squeeze in" the rest of the components for the Buffalo DAC in the near future, esp if this project goes on the path of being a two-way array. I am thinking, over the course of about 3-5 years (bearing in mind building additional surround arrays), my piece together DIY system would cost the higher $,$$$ range and maybe break the $$,$$$ mark. I think the AILA system would probably out perform anything I could build from scratch, yet I am not sure if I want to give up the adventure of building my own system.
I just wish I could hear a BMR, to see if this is what I want to do. I have relatives in England, so that part would work. I just have to wait until I have enough vacation time acquired to take a trip like that - that would be the beginning of next summer, as I would like at least ten days. So we have plenty of time to contemplate...
Allen
Nugget of the day...
Wow, glad I asked! Finally, an answer that makes sense. Maybe spikes do not work on cabinets that are not heavy enough to engage them! I am embarrassed to say, that my current arrays probably have rocking motion! Even if I spiked them, the cabinets are not even close to being heavy enough. Of course, that build was on the cheap... I can see now why Derek is concerned about "poorly" implemented DIY attempts with his products. I had no idea that You needed that much weight! rigid - yes. Bracing - yes. 1000 times mms? That be the nugget of the day! And I Thank You for that, Derek. 
I am curious to know if some of You other speaker builders out there follow the 1:1000 ratio that "Overkill" does for his systems.
I humbly admit, that maybe I would need to build the AILA 120 Kg cabinet in sections! That indeed is a very heavy lift!
If I go with the Fostex, that cabinet would "only" need to be 64 Kg (32 times 2g)! I could handle that in one piece.
Wow, glad I asked! Finally, an answer that makes sense. Maybe spikes do not work on cabinets that are not heavy enough to engage them!
I am embarrassed to say, that my current arrays probably have rocking motion! Even if I spiked them, the cabinets are not even close to being heavy enough. Of course, that build was on the cheap... I can see now why Derek is concerned about "poorly" implemented DIY attempts with his products. I had no idea that You needed that much weight! rigid - yes. Bracing - yes. 1000 times mms? That be the nugget of the day! And I Thank You for that, Derek. I am curious to know if some of You other speaker builders out there follow the 1:1000 ratio that "Overkill" does for his systems.
I humbly admit, that maybe I would need to build the AILA 120 Kg cabinet in sections! That indeed is a very heavy lift!
If I go with the Fostex, that cabinet would "only" need to be 64 Kg (32 times 2g)! I could handle that in one piece.
Comment's on Overkill's two-ways pictured above...
Nice Build, Derek. I have seem that system on another thread somewhere (maybe Wesayso's). If I recall, the woofer section is laminated Baltic Birch - same constructions as Wesayso's. Is the top laminated BB also? What does the "star" do to the top driver (Is that a mangar bwt?)
I see the same speaker in three different rooms with similar house plants in the background. Either You moved around a lot, or You remodeled a lot, or they are three separate systems in three separate homes, and the house planets are a required prop to improve the sound some way.
Nice Build, Derek. I have seem that system on another thread somewhere (maybe Wesayso's). If I recall, the woofer section is laminated Baltic Birch - same constructions as Wesayso's. Is the top laminated BB also? What does the "star" do to the top driver (Is that a mangar bwt?)
I see the same speaker in three different rooms with similar house plants in the background. Either You moved around a lot, or You remodeled a lot, or they are three separate systems in three separate homes, and the house planets are a required prop to improve the sound some way.
I'm sure I am quite close or at that figure. It makes sense. One of the reasons for me to build in wood/aluminium instead of a lightweight epoxy/fiber variant for the enclosure (would have been an easy choice to get my desired shape).
I didn't go with spikes though. I tried something resembling spikes and am happier with the industrial damping feet I use now.(*)
(*)= I have a wood floor that actually moves a bit, it is not as solid as a concrete floor. With the damping feet I haven't noticed any ill side effects.
I didn't go with spikes though. I tried something resembling spikes and am happier with the industrial damping feet I use now.(*)
(*)= I have a wood floor that actually moves a bit, it is not as solid as a concrete floor. With the damping feet I haven't noticed any ill side effects.
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Now, back to the project!
Okay, back to Sd. In a SPL sense, You felt the 24 BMR's was overkill, so you recommended 9 BMR's
9 of your BMR's with Sd of 70.88 per driver is 637.92.
32 of the 3" Tectonics is 627. I could actually fit 36, because they are a little under 3", so the total potential Sd is 705.6 - which is more then the Sd of the system You designed for my room. Would this driver be worth considering?
I am not really considering the bigger Tectonic, I really question the quality.
The only real issue with the smaller Tectonic is the bezel rim. I thought about cutting it off, until I read the 1:1000 deal, and realized the driver can not be compromised that way, dealing with the amount of movement the array will have.
I know your BMR's are the cat's Meow. Is the Tectonic worth exploring or is it a cheap BMR want ta be?
Okay, back to Sd. In a SPL sense, You felt the 24 BMR's was overkill, so you recommended 9 BMR's
9 of your BMR's with Sd of 70.88 per driver is 637.92.
32 of the 3" Tectonics is 627. I could actually fit 36, because they are a little under 3", so the total potential Sd is 705.6 - which is more then the Sd of the system You designed for my room. Would this driver be worth considering?
I am not really considering the bigger Tectonic, I really question the quality.
The only real issue with the smaller Tectonic is the bezel rim. I thought about cutting it off, until I read the 1:1000 deal, and realized the driver can not be compromised that way, dealing with the amount of movement the array will have.
I know your BMR's are the cat's Meow. Is the Tectonic worth exploring or is it a cheap BMR want ta be?
Sometimes I do not understand this kind of engineering...
What can we do with this rim guys?
Add something inside to smooth transition?
Or back mount to thin baffle. Afraid that will cause the praised BMR dispersion pattern to "beam" or what Derek calls "Constant Directivity" or "Lowest Common Denominator"
Or is it a lost cause?
Any ideas?
Allen
What can we do with this rim guys?
Add something inside to smooth transition?
Or back mount to thin baffle. Afraid that will cause the praised BMR dispersion pattern to "beam" or what Derek calls "Constant Directivity" or "Lowest Common Denominator"
Or is it a lost cause?
Any ideas?
Allen
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