Hypothesis:multiple electrlytic capacitors are better than one
I thave found a better specification Electrolytic Capacitor the Nichicon HE has a longer life
http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdf/e-he.pdf
of 10,000 hours at 105dgree(s) celcius for a cheep capacitor of $1.20 each but the maxumim value for 35volts is 3900uF with a Ripple Number of 4.280 therefore will require 24units per C in CLCRCRC for a total of 384 capacitors for stereo Aleph J-X, which gives a total cumulative Ripple Number of 102.720 AMPrms, and the Impedance is 0.012ohms divided by 24units which equals cumulative Impedance of 0.0005ohms, the best economical State Of The Art solution up untill this point in time! If it works as the theories dictate for the many uncertancies, this Power Supply must be built to see if sounds better than the theories imply.
I thave found a better specification Electrolytic Capacitor the Nichicon HE has a longer life
http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdf/e-he.pdf
of 10,000 hours at 105dgree(s) celcius for a cheep capacitor of $1.20 each but the maxumim value for 35volts is 3900uF with a Ripple Number of 4.280 therefore will require 24units per C in CLCRCRC for a total of 384 capacitors for stereo Aleph J-X, which gives a total cumulative Ripple Number of 102.720 AMPrms, and the Impedance is 0.012ohms divided by 24units which equals cumulative Impedance of 0.0005ohms, the best economical State Of The Art solution up untill this point in time! If it works as the theories dictate for the many uncertancies, this Power Supply must be built to see if sounds better than the theories imply.
Last edited:
Ripple current is significantly higher in the first C (did you ever figure out the workings of PSU Designer?) Once you have enough ripple current capacity more doesn't necessarily mean better.
As Uriah mentioned earlier, Steve at Apex Jr. has 18,000 uf/50V Panasonic TSUP snap in caps for $2.50. With the five parallel caps you have ripple capability of almost 35A, and an expected ripple current of <16A. That saves soldering 304 caps, and $260. You know which way I would lean if Steve has as many as you need.
As Uriah mentioned earlier, Steve at Apex Jr. has 18,000 uf/50V Panasonic TSUP snap in caps for $2.50. With the five parallel caps you have ripple capability of almost 35A, and an expected ripple current of <16A. That saves soldering 304 caps, and $260. You know which way I would lean if Steve has as many as you need.
hypothesis: coil inductor CLCLC is the best Power Supply
I have a good feeling about the coil inductor Power Supply but must now create a Proof of why this is so, with out supporting documentation I can not being of sound mind purchase parts based on a feeling.
The section in this Mundorf document on foil coil inductors explains a few reasons why the State Of The Art Power Supply is created using Foil Coils, they make their coils out of Silver & Gold to, check out the prices, who is buying them? I would if I won the lotery, but I dont play the lotery, what dose this say about me, or you ? Are our values in the right place, because I believe that if we were real Audiophiles or Electroacoustic Finatics we would not consider the price of about $2,500.00 per coil and build them into our amplifiers in a CLCLC Power Supply, with the knowlage we have the best amplifier in the world !
http://www.mundorf.com/downloads/info-news/english/MUNDORF_Fidelity_Components_catalog.pdf
I have a good feeling about the coil inductor Power Supply but must now create a Proof of why this is so, with out supporting documentation I can not being of sound mind purchase parts based on a feeling.
The section in this Mundorf document on foil coil inductors explains a few reasons why the State Of The Art Power Supply is created using Foil Coils, they make their coils out of Silver & Gold to, check out the prices, who is buying them? I would if I won the lotery, but I dont play the lotery, what dose this say about me, or you ? Are our values in the right place, because I believe that if we were real Audiophiles or Electroacoustic Finatics we would not consider the price of about $2,500.00 per coil and build them into our amplifiers in a CLCLC Power Supply, with the knowlage we have the best amplifier in the world !
http://www.mundorf.com/downloads/info-news/english/MUNDORF_Fidelity_Components_catalog.pdf
Last edited:
Eeh, someone with a $50k loudspeaker system plus an uncontrollable itch to keep fooling around, or with the dying urge to construct LSP's in that range ?
Say what, sota PS ?
I am not shure I made the right choice in purchasing Power Supply Components CLCLC ?
I began purchasing Power Supply Components for a CLCLC Power Supply. The capacitors I ordered are thirtysix EPCOS #B41560A5339M000 25Volt 33,000uF from Mouser B41560A5339M000 EPCOS Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - Screw Terminal
the data sheet is here http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/30/db/aec_09/B41560__80.pdf
I will be mounting three capacitors in parallel for 99,000uF with a Cumulative Ripple Number of 90 for each "C" in "CLCLC" Power Supply, I have to wait 14weeks now for delivery.
I am using the ERSE 12gage Copper Foil Inductors of 4mH
Copper Foil Inductor Coils | Foil Q | ERSE and of 2.2mH Copper Foil Inductor Coils | Foil Q | ERSE.
The 4mH coils are backordered to, I will purchase the rest of the components when I am delivered the backordered items, up to 14 weeks.
Do You think I have made a good choice, I just had to jump in and make a decision because I could spend the rest of my life researching these components, I am on medical disability now so I dont have much extra money and this power supply costs over $1,000.00 for the components, but I feel comfortable with the purchase that this will be an amazing Power Supply for the money.
Thank You for your comments.
I began purchasing Power Supply Components for a CLCLC Power Supply. The capacitors I ordered are thirtysix EPCOS #B41560A5339M000 25Volt 33,000uF from Mouser B41560A5339M000 EPCOS Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - Screw Terminal
the data sheet is here http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/30/db/aec_09/B41560__80.pdf
I will be mounting three capacitors in parallel for 99,000uF with a Cumulative Ripple Number of 90 for each "C" in "CLCLC" Power Supply, I have to wait 14weeks now for delivery.
I am using the ERSE 12gage Copper Foil Inductors of 4mH
Copper Foil Inductor Coils | Foil Q | ERSE and of 2.2mH Copper Foil Inductor Coils | Foil Q | ERSE.
The 4mH coils are backordered to, I will purchase the rest of the components when I am delivered the backordered items, up to 14 weeks.
Do You think I have made a good choice, I just had to jump in and make a decision because I could spend the rest of my life researching these components, I am on medical disability now so I dont have much extra money and this power supply costs over $1,000.00 for the components, but I feel comfortable with the purchase that this will be an amazing Power Supply for the money.
Thank You for your comments.
Last edited:
You've made a mistake ordering 25V caps if you are still planning to use a 20VAC transformer. I've been banging that drum for a long time, thought you'd heard it.
Your first caps will be on the edge if you use an 18VAC transformer, but then your rails will be about 19V.
You'd mentioned the disability income before, which is why I kept pushing cheaper alternatives. You are way up the diminishing returns curve. I'd go with CRC at 50,000 uf and doubt there would be any issues with the sound. Then spend the difference on better speakers.
Your first caps will be on the edge if you use an 18VAC transformer, but then your rails will be about 19V.
You'd mentioned the disability income before, which is why I kept pushing cheaper alternatives. You are way up the diminishing returns curve. I'd go with CRC at 50,000 uf and doubt there would be any issues with the sound. Then spend the difference on better speakers.
Last edited:
I have been reading and watching this thread. With some amusement I might add. I have to agree 100% with Bob. I would go with 35 volt caps. I would use standard inductors and CRC or CLC is fine.
I have found that chasing the last 1% in terms of sound will do nothing but drain your bank account and drive you nuts. This comes from my experience with a brother in law who has chased that 1% for years with a commercially built system. Needless to say he has spent countless thousands of dollars on modified high end equipment and speakers. In the end, he gets no more enjoyment from his stereo than I do from mine. Accept that I have the pride of having built it myself.
I have found that chasing the last 1% in terms of sound will do nothing but drain your bank account and drive you nuts. This comes from my experience with a brother in law who has chased that 1% for years with a commercially built system. Needless to say he has spent countless thousands of dollars on modified high end equipment and speakers. In the end, he gets no more enjoyment from his stereo than I do from mine. Accept that I have the pride of having built it myself.
While I agree the power supply is often neglected or not given the amount of attention it deserves.
I think you have gone to far in terms of expense. Spending over $500 on the power supply is a bit too much. I would rather put the money toward a better pair of speakers or a new dac or my next amp project.
I am not convinced you will get significant benefits from using foil inductors in the power supply. They are of most benefit in a crossover which is a different application.
I would seriously consider cancelling the capacitor order and buying these http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/160922-nippon-chemicon-kmh-63v-15000uf.html.
Scaiff,
Your approach is yours. However, I believe that cost wise many have found the resistor approach almost on parr with the inductor and at a much reduced effort You will find it difficult to place those large inductors in a case neatly and efficiently.
Even the high end amp companies, Pass for example, have chosen to use resistors in the power supply in lieu of inductors.
How much ripple can you actually hear? I like your effort to achieve perfection.
Have fun with your project. Tad
Your approach is yours. However, I believe that cost wise many have found the resistor approach almost on parr with the inductor and at a much reduced effort You will find it difficult to place those large inductors in a case neatly and efficiently.
Even the high end amp companies, Pass for example, have chosen to use resistors in the power supply in lieu of inductors.
How much ripple can you actually hear? I like your effort to achieve perfection.
Have fun with your project. Tad
This is rather amusing, imo : ERSE-XQ
Oh dear, another : http://www.erseaudio.com/Specials/CoilsSpecial/EAV77-12-2700-NP
Oh dear, another : http://www.erseaudio.com/Specials/CoilsSpecial/EAV77-12-2700-NP
I am following the recomended transformer
I will be using the 18volt 600VA transformer for each mono amp, I had to use 25volt capacitors because of the differance in price by going to 35volt or 40 volt capacitors. I am following the capacitance given on the attached diagram, however I have added another stage to the choke, this is writen about by tube amp designers who have discribed the differance in sound quality in the high frequency and the deffinition of instraments in the wide sound stage created by a good amplifier.
I have researched the speakers I have just finished building last month, I built a 30years of my research and knowlege into them, but now I need an excellent amplifier to enjoy the speakers the way they should be listened to, above 100Hz, I have the amplifier I will be using below 100Hz. They are the best speakers anyone has ever herd who has listened to them even with a low quality Phase Linear amplifier, the parts cost me about $6,000.00 pair and the boxs took one year to build. Thay sound simmilar to the B&W Naudalist, a friend of mine brought over his B&W's and amps so we could sit down and listen, because my speakers are to big to move easyly having 18inch base drivers loaded in a 14foot transmission line, the differance being I have a far superior bottom end, other wise they sound the same.
You've made a mistake ordering 25V caps if you are still planning to use a 20VAC transformer. I've been banging that drum for a long time, thought you'd heard it.
Your first caps will be on the edge if you use an 18VAC transformer, but then your rails will be about 19V.
You'd mentioned the disability income before, which is why I kept pushing cheaper alternatives. You are way up the diminishing returns curve. I'd go with CRC at 50,000 uf and doubt there would be any issues with the sound. Then spend the difference on better speakers.
I will be using the 18volt 600VA transformer for each mono amp, I had to use 25volt capacitors because of the differance in price by going to 35volt or 40 volt capacitors. I am following the capacitance given on the attached diagram, however I have added another stage to the choke, this is writen about by tube amp designers who have discribed the differance in sound quality in the high frequency and the deffinition of instraments in the wide sound stage created by a good amplifier.
I have researched the speakers I have just finished building last month, I built a 30years of my research and knowlege into them, but now I need an excellent amplifier to enjoy the speakers the way they should be listened to, above 100Hz, I have the amplifier I will be using below 100Hz. They are the best speakers anyone has ever herd who has listened to them even with a low quality Phase Linear amplifier, the parts cost me about $6,000.00 pair and the boxs took one year to build. Thay sound simmilar to the B&W Naudalist, a friend of mine brought over his B&W's and amps so we could sit down and listen, because my speakers are to big to move easyly having 18inch base drivers loaded in a 14foot transmission line, the differance being I have a far superior bottom end, other wise they sound the same.
Attachments
You hadn't mentioned dropping back to 18V that I remember. You'll have nominally 24V at the first cap, plus transformer regulation plus line voltage tolerance.
I see we have the same idea - start with good speakers. Rephrase that comment to read spend the difference elsewhere.
Have you given any thought to how you are going to keep those inductors cool? The resistive dissipation will be ~50W and ~40W respectively. You'll be throwing away 180 watts per channel before you get to power your amp. The chokes in Jacco's links have lower DCR and cost less.
PSUD says using the 2.2mH foil choke in a CLC supply you will get less than 5 mV peak to peak ripple. The 4 mH would get it under 2 mV p-p. Do you really think going from 5 mV to .2mV with the CLCLC is going make an audible difference worth the expense?
I see we have the same idea - start with good speakers. Rephrase that comment to read spend the difference elsewhere.
Have you given any thought to how you are going to keep those inductors cool? The resistive dissipation will be ~50W and ~40W respectively. You'll be throwing away 180 watts per channel before you get to power your amp. The chokes in Jacco's links have lower DCR and cost less.
PSUD says using the 2.2mH foil choke in a CLC supply you will get less than 5 mV peak to peak ripple. The 4 mH would get it under 2 mV p-p. Do you really think going from 5 mV to .2mV with the CLCLC is going make an audible difference worth the expense?
An air coil with copper wire of identical inductance value has larger dimensions.
Maybe a downside if the additional inner space requirement is a problem, but there's also the issue of it having about 1/3d more outer surface area.
Means better cooling capability, aka lower coil temperature.
At the cost level of goldmember foil coils, a choke input PS with a biggy transformer choke comes in sight.
Maybe a downside if the additional inner space requirement is a problem, but there's also the issue of it having about 1/3d more outer surface area.
Means better cooling capability, aka lower coil temperature.
At the cost level of goldmember foil coils, a choke input PS with a biggy transformer choke comes in sight.
Last edited:
I am not financially committed to the coils yet
Will the coils become hot, because the foil coils are covered with polypropyline plastic, that means I will have to use the copper wire coils because I could cool them, but then there will be magnetic fields comming off of them to consider, would there be magnetic fields comming off of wire coils ? They would have to be mounted with insulation from the live current passing through them, I think some cement(ceramic) might be ok, I intend on mounting all of my Power Supply components on a heat sink from www.apexjr.com , two of the $20.00 ones [6.75in X 9.75in X 2in], one will be for the positive rail and the other one for the negitive rail.
If I were to use resistors, what kind should they be, chassis mount 50volt Power Wirewound Resistors ? or is there a better kind to use, I know that they all resister types sound different, as all coils types sound different.
I have given Mouser about $555.00 and ordered the backordered capacitors, I had to get 36 electrolytic capacitors because it is the minimum order level, if I dont need to use all 36 of them I can use maybe 16 of them for four mono amplifiers with CRC or CLC ? What materials types do you suggest for Power Resistor, or any resistor for use on the Aleph J-X p.s.b. ? I just dont know yet because I have never researched it.
Will the coils become hot, because the foil coils are covered with polypropyline plastic, that means I will have to use the copper wire coils because I could cool them, but then there will be magnetic fields comming off of them to consider, would there be magnetic fields comming off of wire coils ? They would have to be mounted with insulation from the live current passing through them, I think some cement(ceramic) might be ok, I intend on mounting all of my Power Supply components on a heat sink from www.apexjr.com , two of the $20.00 ones [6.75in X 9.75in X 2in], one will be for the positive rail and the other one for the negitive rail.
If I were to use resistors, what kind should they be, chassis mount 50volt Power Wirewound Resistors ? or is there a better kind to use, I know that they all resister types sound different, as all coils types sound different.
I have given Mouser about $555.00 and ordered the backordered capacitors, I had to get 36 electrolytic capacitors because it is the minimum order level, if I dont need to use all 36 of them I can use maybe 16 of them for four mono amplifiers with CRC or CLC ? What materials types do you suggest for Power Resistor, or any resistor for use on the Aleph J-X p.s.b. ? I just dont know yet because I have never researched it.
All air coils become hot.
Foil coils have a lower thermal resistance from the core to the exterior (Rcc ?
), as foil has a large homogenous area and a wire has not.
Max core temperature of foil-coils and air-coils is identical, temperature of the exterior surface is not.
Foil coils have foil insulation inbetween layers, the wire in common air coils is covered with insulating material.
Magnetic flux rules apply to foil coils as well, what of it if there's a big magnetic core transformer present ?
Coils in a power supply do not sound, your button is still in x-over mode.
Foil coils have a lower thermal resistance from the core to the exterior (Rcc ?
), as foil has a large homogenous area and a wire has not.Max core temperature of foil-coils and air-coils is identical, temperature of the exterior surface is not.
Foil coils have foil insulation inbetween layers, the wire in common air coils is covered with insulating material.
Magnetic flux rules apply to foil coils as well, what of it if there's a big magnetic core transformer present ?
Coils in a power supply do not sound, your button is still in x-over mode.
Last edited:
As for the sound of PSU components, think of it this way - if the amp has a power supply rejection ratio (PSRR) of 40 dB any PSU ripple or "component sound" will be reduced by 40 dB. Therefore, 1 mV ripple becomes 0.01mV at the output.
I don't know if anyone has determined the PSRR of the AJ-X, but I would be surprised if it is less than 40 dB (more being better).
50W wirewounds in aluminum cases should be fine on those heat sinks with your bridges
I don't know if anyone has determined the PSRR of the AJ-X, but I would be surprised if it is less than 40 dB (more being better).
50W wirewounds in aluminum cases should be fine on those heat sinks with your bridges
I have two 10gage coils now at 7.5mH and 2.2mH
When I purchased the components for my speaker crossover about a year or more ago the largest foil coil I could purchase was 5mH, and I had 10gage 2.2mH coils from previous speakers, I used these for my tweeters.
I should change the two coils in my speakers to foil ones before I glue the last side of my speakers together, I had left one side on each so it could come off in order to optomize the dampining long fibre synthetic wool sheets rolled up into coils 6ft long 10inch diameter to hold their shape and position as they are draped arround the one 180degree bend in my labyrinth, I have had to move these arround to optomize my bottom end down to 16Hz +or-5db, they are flat down to 26Hz, down +or-3db at 20Hz
with a JBL2242 with very stiff suspenion, this driver works amazingly in a 14ft Labyrinth(transmission line).
But anyways sorry about the speaker talk, I have a 7.5mH & 2.2mH coils now so I should use these in my Power Supply. Could you please find out what the ripple number will be with these coils used with 99,000uF CLCLC
the numbers for these two coils are here for the 2.2mH
Solen Electronique Inc.
the numbers for the 7.5mH coil is here
Solen Electronique Inc.
I will need to purchase two more of each coil for the required number of 4coils of each value for the Power Supply, I should be able to find less expensive ones someware other than the place I purchased these to coils from, Solon Speakers in Canada ?
Solen Electronique Inc.=
Thank You for your help.
When I purchased the components for my speaker crossover about a year or more ago the largest foil coil I could purchase was 5mH, and I had 10gage 2.2mH coils from previous speakers, I used these for my tweeters.
I should change the two coils in my speakers to foil ones before I glue the last side of my speakers together, I had left one side on each so it could come off in order to optomize the dampining long fibre synthetic wool sheets rolled up into coils 6ft long 10inch diameter to hold their shape and position as they are draped arround the one 180degree bend in my labyrinth, I have had to move these arround to optomize my bottom end down to 16Hz +or-5db, they are flat down to 26Hz, down +or-3db at 20Hz
with a JBL2242 with very stiff suspenion, this driver works amazingly in a 14ft Labyrinth(transmission line).
But anyways sorry about the speaker talk, I have a 7.5mH & 2.2mH coils now so I should use these in my Power Supply. Could you please find out what the ripple number will be with these coils used with 99,000uF CLCLC
the numbers for these two coils are here for the 2.2mH
Solen Electronique Inc.
the numbers for the 7.5mH coil is here
Solen Electronique Inc.
I will need to purchase two more of each coil for the required number of 4coils of each value for the Power Supply, I should be able to find less expensive ones someware other than the place I purchased these to coils from, Solon Speakers in Canada ?
Solen Electronique Inc.=
Thank You for your help.