I recently acquired a pair of used 4-way full range speakers.
These are custom made with high quality drivers, parts and wood work.
However they fall short of my expectations on the sonic front considering the quality of materials and build.
I am trying to provide some objective and some subjective description of the setup, so that the experts here may offer me some advice on what the potential causes might be and what I could attempt to get the best out of these.
Speakers:
4-way sealed enclosure
Driver configuration: MTWW with powered side firing subwoofers
M : SEAS Excel W15CY-001 (E0015) 5.5" magnesium Cone Woofer
W : SEAS Excel W22EX-001 (E0022) 8" magnesium Cone Woofer
T : Fountek NeoCD3.0
SubW : Peerless 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer
The crossover components are of fairly high quality as well. The response plots indicate that its fairly flat from 200 Hz to 20KHz.
The 8” woofers are -3db at 60Hz and the subwoofers cover the lower end.
The cabinet follows a sealed enclosure design. Roughly 4’ tall x 1’ wide x 2’ deep
Side walls are 1.5” think curved birch ply
Baffle is 3” thick MDF with leather covering
the speakers weigh about 160lb each
spec:
Response 30-20K (+/-3db)
Bass Extension 20 hz
F10 (-10db)
Sensitivity 86db
(db / 2.83v / 1M)
Impedance 6 ohms / 4.7 ohms
(nominal / minimum)
Setup:
ATI AT2002 200W per channel power amplifier
Dayton audio 1000W subwoofer amplifier: The subwoofers on the two speakers are connected in series to the amp for a total load of 8ohms. This limits the power to about 500W
Yulong DA8 DAC preamplifier : Balanced outputs connected to the AT2002 and unbalanced output to the Dayton amp
Computer audio source through USB (CD quality, some high resolutions and also some internet streamed(no expectation of top quality on this one))
Supra 9AWG speaker cabling
Good quality XLR interconnect
Room:
12’x14’ with 18’ high ceiling
Laminate wood flooring
Speakers separated by about 8’, 1.5’ breathing room behind the speakers to the rear room wall. About 3’ clearance to the side walls.
Listening position about 7’ in front of the speakers
Some subjective description of the SQ
1. Midrange is very clear
2. Mid/high combo is too forward and bright compared to the mellow 8” woofers
3. The 8” woofers seem underutilized. The overall bass level was very low compared to the mid/high. The bass did get balanced out better when I enabled the side subwoofers.
But I am still not sure why the 2x8” woofers are not producing enough on the lower end.
Real issues I sense:
1. For slow classical music, instrumental etc these sound very good
2. Anything fast and complex like rock cause it to completely fall apart. I am no expert so please pardon my usage of terms to describe the problem
3. Music loses all resolution and everything sounds strained and muddy.
4. Sound stage and good imaging is practically nonexistent for any kind of music. I can clearly sense the sound originating from these hulky boxes. Especially the Fountek don’t sound good to my ears.
But I haven’t honestly experienced sound stage and imaging except in music demo shops on couple of occasions. My description of that is, I couldn’t place the source of music. The sound just filled the room, I couldn’t say which speaker was playing.
These were some Martin Logans, definitive and B&Ws. I was hoping these new speakers would get me that experience in my living room. But this is not even close.
Some of my investigation and observations:
1. I opened the drivers up and noticed that the mounting holes on the baffle are not done very well
2. There is no chamfering on the mounting holes. So the midrange is sitting with a 3”tube on its rear and opening into the cabinet.
3. Same is true for the 8” drivers though not sure if it matters as much.
I suspect my room is not doing any justice to the speakers. But that doesn’t explain it all.
Please offer comments and advice on what could be going on and what I could do to get the best out of this investment in what I thought was a very good system.
These are custom made with high quality drivers, parts and wood work.
However they fall short of my expectations on the sonic front considering the quality of materials and build.
I am trying to provide some objective and some subjective description of the setup, so that the experts here may offer me some advice on what the potential causes might be and what I could attempt to get the best out of these.
Speakers:
4-way sealed enclosure
Driver configuration: MTWW with powered side firing subwoofers
M : SEAS Excel W15CY-001 (E0015) 5.5" magnesium Cone Woofer
W : SEAS Excel W22EX-001 (E0022) 8" magnesium Cone Woofer
T : Fountek NeoCD3.0
SubW : Peerless 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer
The crossover components are of fairly high quality as well. The response plots indicate that its fairly flat from 200 Hz to 20KHz.
The 8” woofers are -3db at 60Hz and the subwoofers cover the lower end.
The cabinet follows a sealed enclosure design. Roughly 4’ tall x 1’ wide x 2’ deep
Side walls are 1.5” think curved birch ply
Baffle is 3” thick MDF with leather covering
the speakers weigh about 160lb each
spec:
Response 30-20K (+/-3db)
Bass Extension 20 hz
F10 (-10db)
Sensitivity 86db
(db / 2.83v / 1M)
Impedance 6 ohms / 4.7 ohms
(nominal / minimum)
Setup:
ATI AT2002 200W per channel power amplifier
Dayton audio 1000W subwoofer amplifier: The subwoofers on the two speakers are connected in series to the amp for a total load of 8ohms. This limits the power to about 500W
Yulong DA8 DAC preamplifier : Balanced outputs connected to the AT2002 and unbalanced output to the Dayton amp
Computer audio source through USB (CD quality, some high resolutions and also some internet streamed(no expectation of top quality on this one))
Supra 9AWG speaker cabling
Good quality XLR interconnect
Room:
12’x14’ with 18’ high ceiling
Laminate wood flooring
Speakers separated by about 8’, 1.5’ breathing room behind the speakers to the rear room wall. About 3’ clearance to the side walls.
Listening position about 7’ in front of the speakers
Some subjective description of the SQ
1. Midrange is very clear
2. Mid/high combo is too forward and bright compared to the mellow 8” woofers
3. The 8” woofers seem underutilized. The overall bass level was very low compared to the mid/high. The bass did get balanced out better when I enabled the side subwoofers.
But I am still not sure why the 2x8” woofers are not producing enough on the lower end.
Real issues I sense:
1. For slow classical music, instrumental etc these sound very good
2. Anything fast and complex like rock cause it to completely fall apart. I am no expert so please pardon my usage of terms to describe the problem
3. Music loses all resolution and everything sounds strained and muddy.
4. Sound stage and good imaging is practically nonexistent for any kind of music. I can clearly sense the sound originating from these hulky boxes. Especially the Fountek don’t sound good to my ears.
But I haven’t honestly experienced sound stage and imaging except in music demo shops on couple of occasions. My description of that is, I couldn’t place the source of music. The sound just filled the room, I couldn’t say which speaker was playing.
These were some Martin Logans, definitive and B&Ws. I was hoping these new speakers would get me that experience in my living room. But this is not even close.
Some of my investigation and observations:
1. I opened the drivers up and noticed that the mounting holes on the baffle are not done very well
2. There is no chamfering on the mounting holes. So the midrange is sitting with a 3”tube on its rear and opening into the cabinet.
3. Same is true for the 8” drivers though not sure if it matters as much.
I suspect my room is not doing any justice to the speakers. But that doesn’t explain it all.
Please offer comments and advice on what could be going on and what I could do to get the best out of this investment in what I thought was a very good system.
Attachments
Last edited:
The midrange is not in it's own enclosure and can be pushed around by the pressure the woofers create in the main enclosure?
The designer didnt provide the crossover information as it is proprietary. But I do have the combined response plot. I will post it on the thread.
Thanks
Joji
I think the midrange is in its own enclosure. What i meant was the mounting hole on the 3"thick baffle almost appears like a 3"tube right behind the driver.
Since its a small midrange driver i am afraid the baffle wont let it beath well and may be introducing odd coloration. Not claiming that i can hear any.
All i can describe it is as a lack of resolution of the different sounds and instruments making up a fast paced piece of music. Things sound smeared and mixed together.
In any case why the difference in SQ when playing slow versus fast paced music?
thanks
Joji
I do have some measurement equipment. Can make some in-room measurements using REW. But the ridiculous room may make the measurements not very useful.
Please do advice on some measurement i can make to help with the analysis.
I do need to find the time to make the measurement though. So please keep the comments and thoughts coming in the meantime
thanks
Joji
Please do advice on some measurement i can make to help with the analysis.
I do need to find the time to make the measurement though. So please keep the comments and thoughts coming in the meantime
thanks
Joji
Hi Joji,
can you spare a photo of a crossover filter from both of the
board sides, its schematics maybe. Mark the wires going to
drivers.
8" Seas drivers do not have parameters for closed box.
I am not sure why the sub had to be installed. Seas drivers
are pretty capable of playing low frequencies.
can you spare a photo of a crossover filter from both of the
board sides, its schematics maybe. Mark the wires going to
drivers.
8" Seas drivers do not have parameters for closed box.
I am not sure why the sub had to be installed. Seas drivers
are pretty capable of playing low frequencies.
Hi,
You'll have to work out the crossover details from inspection
and post them here. Such drivers need a complex x/o and
anything too simple certainly will not work well.
rgds, sreten.
It is odd that a 10" sub is fitted, those two 8"ers can
easily do enough low bass vented for almost anyone.
You'll have to work out the crossover details from inspection
and post them here. Such drivers need a complex x/o and
anything too simple certainly will not work well.
rgds, sreten.
It is odd that a 10" sub is fitted, those two 8"ers can
easily do enough low bass vented for almost anyone.
Couple of folks have asked for the crossover. I agree its needed for any useful analysis. But the crossover is proprietary IP of the designer and so i was not provided a schematic when i inquired. Unfortunately even information on XO freq and topology wasnt provided.
I will try to open the cabinet and see if i can access it.
I understand that the two 8" would have provided plenty low end in a vented cabinet. Probably the designer was pursuing a sealed enclosure design and decided to augment the low end with power sub. Even then i think the sensitivity of the 8" is not well matched with the mid/high. A higher level on the 8" would have helped.
thanks for all comments.
I will try and get the best information that i can obtain.
There is serious potential in this system. And there obviously are many serious issues with it.
My suggestion
0 Measure the response in room 1,5m distance if you can
1 take off all drivers and backside connection panel if it exists. Draw connection diagram of speaker wire polarities!
2 crossover can perhaps be remover from the 10" woofer opening. Take it off and dras schematics, mark polarities!
3 start redisgn!
Buy a Peerless 10" passive to replace XLS10" and work as bass reflex element!
Front baffle must be taken off to make chamfering for the mid driver and possibly a separate sealed enclosure for it (does it's membrane move when you push both 8"s inside?)
My suggestion
0 Measure the response in room 1,5m distance if you can
1 take off all drivers and backside connection panel if it exists. Draw connection diagram of speaker wire polarities!
2 crossover can perhaps be remover from the 10" woofer opening. Take it off and dras schematics, mark polarities!
3 start redisgn!
Buy a Peerless 10" passive to replace XLS10" and work as bass reflex element!
Front baffle must be taken off to make chamfering for the mid driver and possibly a separate sealed enclosure for it (does it's membrane move when you push both 8"s inside?)
Last edited:
Designing a 3 way is hard enough, but doing a good job on a 4 way would take a team of professional filter nerds 6 months.
If this is a custom speaker then I doubt they spent a lot of time tuning it, in fact I bet if you took out the crossover and gave each driver just a 6dB/oct slope it would improve the sound dramatically.
In my opinion the only way to give those drivers the respect they deserve is to go active.
If this is a custom speaker then I doubt they spent a lot of time tuning it, in fact I bet if you took out the crossover and gave each driver just a 6dB/oct slope it would improve the sound dramatically.
In my opinion the only way to give those drivers the respect they deserve is to go active.
Midrange is pretty well isolated from the woofers. Further the subwoofer is in its own sealed enclosure at the bottom of the cabinet.
its pretty much a 3-way with attached subwoofers. The XO is only handling the mid/high and 8"woofers.
As i mentioned, the 8" are set to start rolling off down -3db at 60Hz
its pretty much a 3-way with attached subwoofers. The XO is only handling the mid/high and 8"woofers.
As i mentioned, the 8" are set to start rolling off down -3db at 60Hz
the XO is 3-way. Sub is externally powered.
Agreed on the active XO option. Minidsp sounds like an option.
But recently acquired these and not yet in a state of mind to undertake a massive redesign and spend more on amplifier channels.
Something is wrong here. IMO this need a redesign. The drivers are fine, besides the 10" which I would prefer to be 12" for them to match the 2x8". It is ok for the seas 8" to be in sligthly smaller enclosure, since they dont need to go deep, when having subs. But I think the following is needed to be done:
1. Midrange is compromised in a 3" cylindrical tube.... simply not a good enclosure for midrange production. Better to have assymetrical deep cabinet and square.
2. Flush mount the drivers. Some drivers migth perform ok without bothering, but it can newer compromise the drivers performance, when flush mounted - so do it.
3. Subs - IMO - should be moved to the corners in seperate boxes and controlled actively. Sometimes it also helps to place them assymetrically so that they exite different room modes according to the layout of your listening room.
4. Filters! The drivers you got at hand are really good IMO. I have a 4 way system with seperate subs which work great with 1" dome 5" midrange 3x7" bas and 12" subs - but mine are fully active and carefully tuned with proper measurement equipment through hard work. So I would consider making your system fully active. I does not need to be that expensive and the gain is both big and gives the possibillity to tune the system very easily.
So to sum up - at least skip the 10" and close the hole at the side. Or make them into seperates - which I find benificial.
Seriously consider all new filters or fully active approach. The later will require measurement equipment, but then again somebody has to measure them to figure out what to do next.
Remember, this is my thought on the situation - could be a wise decision to have somebody competent to come by and give their thought on the system and its pros and cons.
1. Midrange is compromised in a 3" cylindrical tube.... simply not a good enclosure for midrange production. Better to have assymetrical deep cabinet and square.
2. Flush mount the drivers. Some drivers migth perform ok without bothering, but it can newer compromise the drivers performance, when flush mounted - so do it.
3. Subs - IMO - should be moved to the corners in seperate boxes and controlled actively. Sometimes it also helps to place them assymetrically so that they exite different room modes according to the layout of your listening room.
4. Filters! The drivers you got at hand are really good IMO. I have a 4 way system with seperate subs which work great with 1" dome 5" midrange 3x7" bas and 12" subs - but mine are fully active and carefully tuned with proper measurement equipment through hard work. So I would consider making your system fully active. I does not need to be that expensive and the gain is both big and gives the possibillity to tune the system very easily.
So to sum up - at least skip the 10" and close the hole at the side. Or make them into seperates - which I find benificial.
Seriously consider all new filters or fully active approach. The later will require measurement equipment, but then again somebody has to measure them to figure out what to do next.
Remember, this is my thought on the situation - could be a wise decision to have somebody competent to come by and give their thought on the system and its pros and cons.
I think i can do the woofers and mid/high separately. These are available as binding posts.
Will the woofer measurements be any good if done in that room?
mid/high separation is somewhere inside. Further the massive baffles and cabinets are well sealed. Will need few dynamite sticks to open it up
What access i have is through the driver holes. And i could only touch and feel the crossovers when i let my hand explore through the wads of damping material.
Will make another careful attempt at learning what i can.
Try first something very simple: another amplifier and or source/preamp.
Here's a description of the ATI amplifier that describes your problem.
With very transparent speakers you're hearing all the problems in the rest of the audio chain.
Here's a description of the ATI amplifier that describes your problem.
With very transparent speakers you're hearing all the problems in the rest of the audio chain.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.