Advice needed: Alpair 10p/7p Tang Band W8

[mixMZ]

I need some advice ...

Can not decide which FR would be another step up from Tang Band w8 1808

Anyone had a chance to compare mark audio alpair`s with tang band FR?

I currently have w8 1808 and would like to know the sonic difference between this driver and newer w8 1245, and also differences between tang band FR and alpairs from mark audio.

I like Tb w8 1808 but looking for something warmer with more air and more details...

worth saying that im not that bothered with low freq from FR, as it will be used in 2 way config crossed aprox 250-500hz but it has to do hights well.

thx
Mikolaj

 

[xrk971]

When you say more "air" are you saying you prefer drivers that have un-natural peaks in the HF regions - that is, a non flat frequency profile? These types of drivers may sound interesting at first but I find they quickly become fatiguing and un-listenable (without EQ) after a few hours. Furthermore, the peaks that give this impression of "air" do so by imposing an inordinate amount of high frequency ringing in the impulse function. If you are going to use as a FAST with a helper woofer you are best off staying with smaller drivers (3in to 4in) that have better polar response and less beaming from a 6.5in or 8in driver.

Measurements of the 1808 are available here:
http://rutcho.com/speaker_drivers/tang_band_w8_1808/tang_band_w8-1808.html

There are some serious peaks in the 10 to 15 dB amplitude range depending on listening angle - talk about ringing like a bell.

Measurements of the A10P are here:
http://rutcho.com/speaker_drivers/alpair_10p_a/alpair_10p_a.html

Those are 20dB peaks in the HF - very very large amounts of ringing and unnatural air.

I would imagine the A7P will have similar peakyness issues.

Drivers with air and known ringing include Alpairs and most Fostex drivers. If you want to hear a neutral natural sound from 200Hz to 18kHz, you can spend a lot more but a Vifa TC9FD is tough to beat. You can also get its higher priced Fiberglas siblings the TG9FD or the ScanSpeak 10F/8424 for lower harmonic distortion and flatter response. The 10F is about in the same price point as some of the MA's and higher end TB's. Another good choice is the Faital Pro 3FE22 or 3FE25 - they have good sensitivity and are neutral and have good highs as well.

For more info on what drivers are preferred by Diy Audio listeners in a FAST, visit the "Subjective Blind Comparison of 3in to 5in Full Range Drivers" thread.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/270614-subjective-blind-comparison-3in-5in-full-range-drivers.html

Flat response is best for long term enjoyment and ability to sound good with ALL genres of music. You can always add "air" to a flat response driver via EQ - at least it is switchable to neutral but the driver with an inherent ringing peak cannot be made neutral over a wide polar dispersion as easily.

 

[mixMZ]

I should precise more what I am after ... by "air" i don't mean un-natural peaks in the HF regions - you cant just "create" more air using an equalizer... on any speaker/drivers.

By "air" I mean an - pressure of "magic space" between instruments with very good clarity ,wide stereo and good depth ,sound of each instruments tend to be a little thinner but gives you an impression it flows in the air smoothly - not just coming from certain place where speaker is.

Have to admit I haven't heard Vifa TC9FD but taking into account its price just don't believe it could be taken to the same league where TB w8 1808 is.

I am looking for a driver which will give me more than TB not a cheaper one with close performance.

 

[Scottmoose]

Anyone had a chance to compare mark audio alpair`s with tang band FR?

Difficult to draw any meaningful comparisons since there aren't all that many precise size-equivalents other than the 4in models.

I currently have w8 1808 and would like to know the sonic difference between this driver and newer w8 1245

2145 is very new, not many in circulation yet, but it appears to be loosely derived from the earlier W8 models, but with a ferrite magnet, revised cone colour & revised phase plug. Presumably some suspension changes also. Smaller Vas than the 1808, so it will probably be happier in smaller cabinets.

and also differences between tang band FR and alpairs from mark audio.

YMMV, since it's apples / oranges.

I like Tb w8 1808 but looking for something warmer with more air and more details...

Nominally an oxymoron; however, you could get similar results by tilting the response up at either end, at least in bald FR terms. There's a lot more to it than purely that though; few would deny that the basic on-axis FR trend is important, but it's not the sole arbiter either of what works and what doesn't. Would that it were, life would be easier. Alas, the world isn't quite so black & white and there are a large number of additional contributing factors; distortion levels are an obvious 'audio' one; from a mechanical engineering perspective (generally ignored in audio), the conversion efficiency of the substrate and OA moving components are major factors.

worth saying that im not that bothered with low freq from FR, as it will be used in 2 way config crossed aprox 250-500hz but it has to do hights well.

Unless you're after quite high sustained SPLs and +20dB dynamic range on top of those (no bad thing, but more than a lot of people need), then I would suggest there's little point in running an 8in widebander -it won't do the HF as well as a smaller one, which should get sufficiently low without difficulty. You may wish to consider a quality compression mid-tweet in a front horn if you're looking at a 500Hz XO point. Not many out there can do it, but there are a few. That's the way it used to be done.

 

[Godzilla]

>>> Can not decide which FR would be another step up from Tang Band w8 1808

Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of hearing any Alpair drivers.

The 1808 images very well but certainly has a sonic character. I always believe there's "another step up". These are expensive drivers and both TB and Alpair have their fans. It's all very subjective regardless of the measurements.

Having heard about 20 full range drivers ranging from $1 to $200 I can say with conviction the most expensive driver isn't always the most satisfying for me. I also have enjoyed listening sessions with wonderful people who preferred a different driver than the one I did.

It's a challenge for the DIY community to purchase something without hearing it which is why our opinions are so important. Measurements solidify our opinions with fact. If you get the Alpair, let us know which you prefer and why.

 

[Bob Brines]

As much as I try, I cannot warm up to the MA paper drivers. The A7P, A10P and A12P all have a very high distortion peak around 600Hz, give or take, and I presume this is why. I very much like the A7.3 and the A10.3 metal drivers, though.

Bob

 

[planet10]

By "air" I mean an - pressure of "magic space" between instruments with very good clarity ,wide stereo and good depth ,sound of each instruments tend to be a little thinner but gives you an impression it flows in the air smoothly - not just coming from certain place where speaker is.

Have to admit I haven't heard Vifa TC9FD but taking into account its price just don't believe it could be taken to the same league where TB w8 1808 is.

Sounds like what you are looking for is a driver with greater DDR, your description of air would be a subset of a driver/system with high DDR (high DDR means that the driver has a low "noise" floor and is capable of reproducing the small details). Really good DDR is something very important to us here.

The biggest issue i have with the TC9D is that it does not have very high DDR.

XRK is currently on a jag where he thinks that you can know everything from its measured FR. Give him some time and he willrealize he isonly scratching the surface.

Since you are essentially using the FR as a mid-tweeter in a FAST the drivers i would consider would be Alpair 7.3 and the Fostex FF85wk, modified/matched ones from me if you want the most DDR (even if i do say so myself -- if you want to tackle the mods yourself, info to do that can be provided)

We have done a number of FAST with both these drivers (modified) and performance is superb.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...nken-gallery-pictures-only-4.html#post3331862
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/269393-p10-hifi-alpair-7-3en-sdx7en-fast.html

dave

 

[xrk971]

Have to admit I haven't heard Vifa TC9FD but taking into account its price just don't believe it could be taken to the same league where TB w8 1808 is.

Spend $24 and get yourself a pair of TC9FD's and see what you think. If you want to be in the same league build-wise and name brand wise as the fancier Tang Band, but have a flat response and 87dB sensitivity, get the $105 ScanSpeak 10F/8424 - it does indeed sound very good and IMO, better than the TC9FD.

XRK is currently on a jag where he thinks that you can know everything from its measured FR. Give him some time and he willrealize he isonly scratching the surface.

I am not on any "jag" - just pointing out the fact the majority of listeners who participated in the "Subjective Blind Comparo" thread preferred a driver with flatter response. Certainly, frequency response is not the only thing that is important, but from the standpoint of one of the most important things that make a driver sound like it sounds (its "voice"), to first order, is the frequency response which dominates all other parameters or measured responses.

Here is my take on DDR: it is present in a driver because that driver has HF peaks which result in ringing. The ringing produces a lengthened duration of sharp transients and this is then perceived by the human auditory system as a heightened persistence of low-level micro details not originally there in the source material. Take a driver with reportedly high DDR like the A7.3 and EQ its 10 to 15 dB peaks flat. Is the DDR still there? A neutral intrinsically-flat response driver will be deemed lifeless by proponents of DDR-seeking listeners. If this is what you want to hear, by all means, get drivers than ring.

Here is the response of the SS 10F (~1dB to ~2dB peaks at 0 deg and 15 deg, data presented on graph with 5dB major divisions and 50 dB vertical scale, not 110 dB vertical scale and 10dB divisions like A7 or A10 data):

 

[Greg B]

Here is my take on DDR: it is present in a driver because that driver has HF peaks which result in ringing. The ringing produces a lengthened duration of sharp transients and this is then perceived by the human auditory system as a heightened persistence of low-level micro details not originally there in the source material. Take a driver with reportedly high DDR like the A7.3 and EQ its 10 to 15 dB peaks flat. Is the DDR still there? A neutral intrinsically-flat response driver will be deemed lifeless by proponents of DDR-seeking listeners. If this is what you want to hear, by all means, get drivers than ring.

I don't want to belabor the point, but I still disagree on this explanation. While there is some truth to it in certain situations, better drivers do have more detail resolution, even when EQ'd dead flat.

In many cases, I think people cannot hear this because they are bottlenecked by either the source material signal quality (mp3's etc) or the electronics.

Anyhow, as far as the OP, since it will be highpassed, I'd consider one of the fancier Fostex drivers, or even Lowther ceramics if the budget allows.

Some of these will really need to be used with EQ, which is the case for many FR regardless.

 

[chrisb]

FWIW, I note that there are rather marked differences between ScanSpeak's published FR graphs for the the 4 and 8 ohm version of the 10F - particularly in the 6-9K range

Whichever one is it that we have, I would agree that it's a major improvement over the Vifa, which I found to do absolutely nothing wrong, but just not as exciting as, say the FF85WK, or Alpair 6.3 (metal) Of course, we are now talking drivers in approx the same size class that range in price from under $15 ea to just under $100, and depending on whose website you're on, the 10F is categorized as either a full-range or mid-range driver, so the argument could be that it's apples to oranges.

 

[Greg B]

Yeah Heils are good stuff. Glad you got those. I have some Aurum Cantus ribbons that are similar sonically, sort of. They're perhaps a little higher resolution in the top octave, but with more distortion (relatively) near the bottom of their range. (which doesn't go to 600Hz)

As far as measuring resolution quantitatively, it can be difficult. I find that waterfall/CSD plots are a pretty good indicator, especially for mids and tweeter. Good impulse tends to correlate also.

BTW, take a look sometime at how bad small drivers are at CSD below 500Hz. It is usually edited out. Metal cone drivers, despite their drawbacks, seem to do much better in equivalent sizes. Certainly the Seas and other good metal woofers I've heard bare this out.

 

[Greg B]

Since for this it will be highpassed at 250-500hz, perhaps the 10F is a good choice. I wonder how the real CSD compares. Certainly it looks like will be better than the 1808. It might lose some midrange dynamics though. Bigger does do some stuff better.

 

[xrk971]

I am still waiting for the Visaton B80's which I hear has reportedly exceedingly good CSD. I think a lot of this is discussed in the TC9FD best bang for the buck thread - as links to measurements by Klang and Ton. You are right about a large driver having more mid punch dynamics. There is something to be said for feeling the punch of an impulse at 250Hz.

 

[Moderation Team]

Off-topic moved here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/272657-more-ddr.html

dave

 

[BYRTT]

.....worth saying that im not that bothered with low freq from FR, as it will be used in 2 way config crossed aprox 250-500hz but it has to do hights well.....

.....Have to admit I haven't heard Vifa TC9FD but taking into account its price just don't believe it could be taken to the same league where TB w8 1808 is.

I am looking for a driver which will give me more than TB not a cheaper one with close performance.

ScanSpeak 10F/8424G00 or Visaton B80.

Both 10F / B80 review data found here post #343 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/268626-vifa-tc9fd18-08-best-bang-buck-35.html#post4250353.

A actual B80 build at post #53 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/193934-visaton-b80-6.html#post4194922.

 

[gafhenderson]

The best "full range" Driver I've heard is;

SB Acoustics :: 5'' SATORI MW13P-8

 

[xrk971]

That Satori 5in looks sweet. What do those cost?

 

[xrk971]

Ok just checked and Madisound carries the Satori for $155 ea. and the price is consistent with the looks and build quality. However, more careful look at published response shows -5dB dip at 1.5kHz and 10dB peak at 8kHz. Not as smooth as the 10F/8424 and about same 87dB sensitivity. Mid bass punch from a 5in will be superior to a 3.5in driver though but beaming will be more of a problem. They probably sound very nice and if used in a FAST I would say they need to be compared to the PRV 5MR450NDY which also goes up to about the same 15kHz. A very high tech cool looking piece of hardware though. Drool...

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[IG81]

Advertised as a midwoofer actually, but this one does reach pretty high. I've checked a few small/medium SB units as of late and found that most of them are fairly extended in relative HF response. I suppose the peaking HF response might normalize itself in the in-room power response, IOW counter the beaming, depending on placement and room behavior.

 

[gafhenderson]

its the copper sleave in the motor that makes them so lovely. The dip is apparently due to the type of surround used and I didn't find it an issue at all. There is some test data on them and the distortion is incredibly low. Compared to equivalent size true full-range units, this driver is very good Especially slightly off axis.

http://medleysmusings.com/mw13p-4/