I don't get this.......................Ok
Delta looks like you dont need more output...
I can only say what i am hearing,an i gess others are hearing the same as myself.
But i dont see this as a lep of faith....
I see it as water pipe.......in series if 5 heads are feed water....the last one or two heads well put out less....an if the pipe is open at the end...like the wire is in the panel.....you well get vary littel out of any heads....know matter how much water you put if open in...series.....an well kill the water pump............
I owned a irrigation install bizz when i was young.....
I see this mod as making the panel wire one thing .....like a closed panel...not openend panel like the stock panels are......maybe when wire is driven openended...like the water pipe....the interfaces are left hanging in air as it was..an you are driving the wire..an the mylar..in series......
In parallel ...the interfaces see a closed one peace grid..an drives the mylar more evenly
In one of my panel setups i have had M3s.....2 panels Had this mod....one panel did not in ea speaker ...moded panels had more than 2db louder than unmoded....an this is ezey to hear when side by side..................
I do run high bias to my panels.....i do have 30megohm bias feeder res.....not the stock 500mag......but even with the all stock setup there more output with the mod!
Maybe its magic.....like the sound Acoustats make to me........
Delta looks like you dont need more output...
I can only say what i am hearing,an i gess others are hearing the same as myself.
But i dont see this as a lep of faith....
I see it as water pipe.......in series if 5 heads are feed water....the last one or two heads well put out less....an if the pipe is open at the end...like the wire is in the panel.....you well get vary littel out of any heads....know matter how much water you put if open in...series.....an well kill the water pump............
I owned a irrigation install bizz when i was young.....
I see this mod as making the panel wire one thing .....like a closed panel...not openend panel like the stock panels are......maybe when wire is driven openended...like the water pipe....the interfaces are left hanging in air as it was..an you are driving the wire..an the mylar..in series......
In parallel ...the interfaces see a closed one peace grid..an drives the mylar more evenly
In one of my panel setups i have had M3s.....2 panels Had this mod....one panel did not in ea speaker ...moded panels had more than 2db louder than unmoded....an this is ezey to hear when side by side..................
I do run high bias to my panels.....i do have 30megohm bias feeder res.....not the stock 500mag......but even with the all stock setup there more output with the mod!
Maybe its magic.....like the sound Acoustats make to me........
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Delta....what your saying about the sound your geting dose take a lep of faith....
But i gess your room is so big......it must act like a BIG horn...hehe...
Most of us... even with a big....well for me 18'X40'X13' all open with a 7'movebel wall.... to day is setup at 18'X25' sound room have never heard any speaker in a room like yours... must less ESLs...i Bet its killer..................one of a Kind sound...
sounds like fun......
But in the end i never like horns....but thay give a lot of output..
But i gess your room is so big......it must act like a BIG horn...hehe...
Most of us... even with a big....well for me 18'X40'X13' all open with a 7'movebel wall.... to day is setup at 18'X25' sound room have never heard any speaker in a room like yours... must less ESLs...i Bet its killer..................one of a Kind sound...
sounds like fun......
But in the end i never like horns....but thay give a lot of output..
Tyu, yes, you will get 1/2 the electrical resistance compared to series signal feed from transformers, but we are talking very high voltage AC. Remember what the results were on you bias current limiting resistor? Going from 500 meg to 250 meg does nothing, but going from 500 meg to 10 meg made a little difference - feeds back the bias voltage quicker after a bass release. I see this the same way...no?
Yes, I think it is a better design (with parallel signal feed, lower electrical resistance thru wire, and helps if you have a wire failure - still get signal everywhere), but the increase in 2 - 3 SPL does not compute...
Also, what does the halving of stator resistance and impedance do to the design of the transformer and upstream amp? Maybe this affect on transformer and amp may gives the increase in SPL... We need Bolserst too chime in - I am only a Mechanical Engineer, not a EE.
Yes, I think it is a better design (with parallel signal feed, lower electrical resistance thru wire, and helps if you have a wire failure - still get signal everywhere), but the increase in 2 - 3 SPL does not compute...
Also, what does the halving of stator resistance and impedance do to the design of the transformer and upstream amp? Maybe this affect on transformer and amp may gives the increase in SPL... We need Bolserst too chime in - I am only a Mechanical Engineer, not a EE.
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In Bolserst we trust...an Thanks for all his help way up front.....................
But for sure he know of this...i saw this mod in the 90s......Hell as i said....Most of what these old acoustat panels Do is Magic too me....how can something so simpel not be copyed...........now thats nuts................................................well to me anyway............Thanks for any an all input on ESLs
But for sure he know of this...i saw this mod in the 90s......Hell as i said....Most of what these old acoustat panels Do is Magic too me....how can something so simpel not be copyed...........now thats nuts................................................well to me anyway............Thanks for any an all input on ESLs
being a Devil Advocate.... I get that.... hehe....it all good john, thanks for your input any time.............
Yes thay are Better.....With the ML panels i have re-worket....with new bias feeds there output is a ezey 92-94db at one watt.....if i could get that out of the Acoustats WOW.....The ML i have ....Even with all the mods done To the Acoustats make them sound at best 87-8 db at one watt...The only thing i dont care for an this gos for the stock Acoustats also in the 30% crive in the panels.....
An i well even say for me the best sound i get out of my Spectra 3 is ran none Spectra....feed only fullrang.....crive panels sound like sround sound....not live music..............but thats me............
Yes thay are Better.....With the ML panels i have re-worket....with new bias feeds there output is a ezey 92-94db at one watt.....if i could get that out of the Acoustats WOW.....The ML i have ....Even with all the mods done To the Acoustats make them sound at best 87-8 db at one watt...The only thing i dont care for an this gos for the stock Acoustats also in the 30% crive in the panels.....
An i well even say for me the best sound i get out of my Spectra 3 is ran none Spectra....feed only fullrang.....crive panels sound like sround sound....not live music..............but thats me............
Thats the ticket.....Make the panel wire ....seen by the interface as onething
An not driving the wire an the mylar...as in the stock setup......but it has to take less power from the interfaces to lite up the front an back when there onepeace....if not we would not hear more output.....hehe
Look at the pic......i fill in the on top of the runs of added wire with hot glue!
This stops hard driving FLASH over...or keep from liteing you You............... if you were to put you fingers on the wire whill your Rocking.............
An not driving the wire an the mylar...as in the stock setup......but it has to take less power from the interfaces to lite up the front an back when there onepeace....if not we would not hear more output.....hehe
Look at the pic......i fill in the on top of the runs of added wire with hot glue!
This stops hard driving FLASH over...or keep from liteing you You............... if you were to put you fingers on the wire whill your Rocking.............
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![Acoustat_Panel_03[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/419/419673-f72abb144fc49fae77ed0b0e886d44cd.jpg)
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Rightfully so. I have measured panels with this modification and there is no change in efficiency.
This is a valid way of looking at it, if you get the dimensions of the pipes and sprinkler outlets correct.
The wire used in the Acoustat panels has a resistance of about 0.065 ohm per panel length. The capacitance between sets of individual wires is about 16pF. At worst case high frequencies, this would be an impedance of 500Kohm. So the ratio of series to load impedances is about 7.7 million to 1. The equivalent water analogy would be a pipe 170” (14.5 feet!) in diameter feeding sprinklers with outlets of 1/16” in diameter.
If you are hearing a difference, it is due to something other than lowering the resistance of the signal path to the stator wires.
I measured no difference in efficiency or frequency response.
Now, if you are overdriving the panels to the point the air is ionized and conducting(glowing blue-purple), the impedance between the wires can be reduced to the point that the series resistance of the wire would be noticeable. But this isn’t really relevant when the panels are driven within their limits and not generating ozone.
Well i told you..... its Magic......i have a Magic brain......hehe ...
well i think i have a brain..i do all these mods..that make no diff....an most sound better than the Stock setup.....an it all in my head.....well i gess i not alone...
Well i gess as long as i haveing fun that in the end is all that matters....
Audiofool........................ After all none of you guyes well ever stop buy an tell me i am Nuts......bastet on you hearing the same thing i am...oh well thats life
Well i gess i can get out of my Acoustats an ESL altogather....it been a lot of work...for nothing..
Fun if you dont know any better....hehe
An on the point of seeing (glowing blue-purple),
You have got to be kiding.....NO never...
This was ezeyer to see with the Acoustat tube sevo Amps in my Xs...... the copper wire in the jacket is glowing nothing more.....looks a littel like a neion tube......an keep up to the beat of the music...
An i gess i am the only one that has ever seen this also.....Wow...Gofig
well i think i have a brain..i do all these mods..that make no diff....an most sound better than the Stock setup.....an it all in my head.....well i gess i not alone...
Well i gess as long as i haveing fun that in the end is all that matters....
Audiofool........................ After all none of you guyes well ever stop buy an tell me i am Nuts......bastet on you hearing the same thing i am...oh well thats life
Well i gess i can get out of my Acoustats an ESL altogather....it been a lot of work...for nothing..
Fun if you dont know any better....hehe
An on the point of seeing (glowing blue-purple),
You have got to be kiding.....NO never...
This was ezeyer to see with the Acoustat tube sevo Amps in my Xs...... the copper wire in the jacket is glowing nothing more.....looks a littel like a neion tube......an keep up to the beat of the music...
An i gess i am the only one that has ever seen this also.....Wow...Gofig
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Where are you seeing the blue glow?
Is it the straight sections of the wires? or just on the ends of the wires where they loop around the pins. I have only seen blue glow pulsing with the music when I was intentionally overdriving the Acoustats to test for threshold of air-break down which occurred at a bit over 35Vrms for frequencies < 200Hz where the LF transformer defines step-up ratio.
Attached is a pic I took(not Acoustat) showing what I am talking about, blue corona discharge when air is conducting in the gap.
Pic was taken with steady sine wave so camera would capture.
More info here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/246846-first-time-esl-builder-7.html#post3764641
If I remember correctly, you live near the coast?
Perhaps moist salty air promotes the corona at lower voltage levels than normal.
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Tyu the most important thing is what YOU believe never mind what others think it's all about YOU but if it matters i do believe most of what you say i also have been with Acoustats for a very long time stock version are good BUT once they are modified they become exceptional.
PS: On the seventh day god created Acoustats.
PS: On the seventh day god created Acoustats.
I have observed glowing wires, BUT not inside the panels themselves. The only place I've seen this occur is along the run of wires up the rear of the speaker, where the front and rear stator wires are bundled together. This is why on the Spectra models, we changed to running the front and rear stator wires in separate PVC jackets, to keep these highest-potential points away from each other. Worked like a charm, although we never attributed any real problems to corona-glow.
Furthermore, these corona observations have occurred only under very high drive conditions, bordering on over-driving, and only visible in a completely darkened room. Of course, this phenomenon is more easily observed on smaller speakers, where drive levels are higher for a given SPL output, and bass equalization is greatest.
Getting back to the bridging of the stator wires. I will not deny the possibility that it might make a difference, even an improvement. My question was about the claim for increased efficiency. I think it's safe to say that no compelling explanation has been offered, and furthermore the consensus is that my skepticism is shared.
Hey...you folks can do anything you want to your speakers, if that's what makes you happy. That's one of the great things about this hobby. Won't hurt my feelings. I don't work at the factory anymore and won't scold you for voiding your 'lifetime' warranty...which no longer exists anyway.
But if I may offer my opinion of this modification for my own personal pairs of Acoustats? No thanks. It's not a risk and/or potential compromise I'm willing to take with my beloved speakers, even though I know I have the skills to accomplish the task. I consider my speakers to be unreplaceable and have every intention to listening to my last song on them. Naturally, I have a special attachment to my Hafler and Acoustat equipment, as I was involved in their design. Most audiophiles seem to thrive on constant change in their system, whereas I prefer a certain stability. I probably adopted that preference years ago when I would audition new designs in my home system, and needed to be able to make comparisons to a known standard.
Your mileage may vary.
Furthermore, these corona observations have occurred only under very high drive conditions, bordering on over-driving, and only visible in a completely darkened room. Of course, this phenomenon is more easily observed on smaller speakers, where drive levels are higher for a given SPL output, and bass equalization is greatest.
Getting back to the bridging of the stator wires. I will not deny the possibility that it might make a difference, even an improvement. My question was about the claim for increased efficiency. I think it's safe to say that no compelling explanation has been offered, and furthermore the consensus is that my skepticism is shared.
Hey...you folks can do anything you want to your speakers, if that's what makes you happy. That's one of the great things about this hobby. Won't hurt my feelings. I don't work at the factory anymore and won't scold you for voiding your 'lifetime' warranty...which no longer exists anyway.
But if I may offer my opinion of this modification for my own personal pairs of Acoustats? No thanks. It's not a risk and/or potential compromise I'm willing to take with my beloved speakers, even though I know I have the skills to accomplish the task. I consider my speakers to be unreplaceable and have every intention to listening to my last song on them. Naturally, I have a special attachment to my Hafler and Acoustat equipment, as I was involved in their design. Most audiophiles seem to thrive on constant change in their system, whereas I prefer a certain stability. I probably adopted that preference years ago when I would audition new designs in my home system, and needed to be able to make comparisons to a known standard.
Your mileage may vary.
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Bolserst
You remember correctly, i live near the coast?.....20 miles inland now...
Perhaps moist salty air promotes the corona at lower voltage levels than normal.
Right it the Air..Its got in my brain...what brain,...hehe...thanks man....
look only thing i have ever saw was a red,es
glow of the white wires when the bias was pull because of the High humidity here....
...never any blue..black..yello... pink.... never around the wires...An there was the tube glow also....can forget that....those tube ran a lot of V into the old panels...............
An as i have posted with the Xs driven buy the Servos tube amps the most....in the dark....an the X s had a box around the panels back were the tube amps set at the bottem.....like a Horn so the glow was made biger out the back...ezer to see than when setup like the 1+1s are any of newer Acoustat.
You remember correctly, i live near the coast?.....20 miles inland now...
Perhaps moist salty air promotes the corona at lower voltage levels than normal.
Right it the Air..Its got in my brain...what brain,...hehe...thanks man....
look only thing i have ever saw was a red,es
glow of the white wires when the bias was pull because of the High humidity here....
...never any blue..black..yello... pink.... never around the wires...An there was the tube glow also....can forget that....those tube ran a lot of V into the old panels...............
An as i have posted with the Xs driven buy the Servos tube amps the most....in the dark....an the X s had a box around the panels back were the tube amps set at the bottem.....like a Horn so the glow was made biger out the back...ezer to see than when setup like the 1+1s are any of newer Acoustat.
Thanks for your input Mr Acoustat...most important thing is what YOU believe ....
Yes up to a point.....i have a great need find out the facts...just the facts....
Look what i have done with the Acoustats.....Setup a bias i set...4-7k...setup the 121 interfaces so the two transfourmers see NO earth are each other....only earth is in the cen tap of the 121 tranfourmers....an then though a 500ohm res to the bias....
drop the bias feed res...from 500meg down to 5meg.....now set to 30meg...an the mod of the parleling the panel wire...long time a go...
.An i well say..... [change ONE of these thing back to stock setup]....an i would see the Acoustats as no better than a SoundLab..... or quads..B&Ws...Magnepans..
good sound but not for me...maybe just to play with....i have to be abel to get the output out of any ESL..... are there just one more good speaker....Acoustats set up my way give me all i need..................30 years of work....
An all just one mans finding.....
Yes up to a point.....i have a great need find out the facts...just the facts....
Look what i have done with the Acoustats.....Setup a bias i set...4-7k...setup the 121 interfaces so the two transfourmers see NO earth are each other....only earth is in the cen tap of the 121 tranfourmers....an then though a 500ohm res to the bias....
drop the bias feed res...from 500meg down to 5meg.....now set to 30meg...an the mod of the parleling the panel wire...long time a go...
.An i well say..... [change ONE of these thing back to stock setup]....an i would see the Acoustats as no better than a SoundLab..... or quads..B&Ws...Magnepans..
good sound but not for me...maybe just to play with....i have to be abel to get the output out of any ESL..... are there just one more good speaker....Acoustats set up my way give me all i need..................30 years of work....
An all just one mans finding.....