A Subjective Blind Comparison of 3in to 5in Full Range Drivers

[xrk971]

I havn't B80 and definetly will not have in near future.
I had asked the man that has B80.
In #638 is what he thinks about this .

Who are you talking about? The only member I know of on these boards that has a B80 is Vulojev.

 

[Flaesh]

Russian seller that has B80's.

 

[BYRTT]

I havn't B80 and definetly will not have in near future.
I had asked the man that has B80.
In #638 is what he thinks about this .
He also believes that Visaton can send samples and thus to increase sales in the United States .

Ohh now i see you asked the Russia dealer if he would send B80 to test, and he doesn't think that this is fun, he thinks it's irrational waste of money.

Sorry I'm slow sometimes, thanks for trying get a pair B80 to test for comparison.

 

[Flaesh]

BYRTT, don't be sorry. I'm constantly slow , even running the 4 litre engine up to 6000 rpm.

 

[Jay]

Just wanted to show some of the constraints so that anyone with the inclination would not try to use this to help pick out a driver they like.

I haven't gone thru all the posts but this is an interesting comment and is very useful.

XRK971 sent me a high-res (flac) clip of his RS225-10F FAST and I didn't like the sound for what I believe the drivers are capable of. But he said he used $30 Class-D amp... which I believe I wouldn't like... So it seems I need to give room for Dave's comment.

 

[xrk971]

Jay,
You are alone in your opinion of that sound clip. Many others, including a professional music producer say that it is exemplary in balance, and is very clear and detailed. Your reservations in class D amps en masse as a category shows your prejudice for a technology that is perhaps better than many class AB, class A, and even tube amps. Just look at the TPA3116D2 thread to see examples of how this amp has beaten some very formidable alternatives. Just because the amp cost $30, doesn't mean anything other than it was a great DIY deal. It is a custom DUG designed PCB with quality components and I would say the amp rivals many $800 to $1000 amps in commercial market in SQ.

 

[Jay]

Jay,
You are alone in your opinion of that sound clip. Many others, including a professional music producer say that it is exemplary in balance, and is very clear and detailed.

It IS balanced, and especially clear and detailed. But (like I said) it is not my cup of tea.

I don't like FR and I don't like simple crossovers simply because my ears are sensitive to peak/distortion/breakup. I have learned that no matter how flat a response is, if non-linear distortion is high, the effect is similar. Tiring to listen to. That's why I don't like the idea to put a driver to cover so wide bandwidth (unless it is qualified to do so).

To give you a perspective, take a look at the classic Vifa XT25. I crossed that tweeter at no lower than 3kHz with 3rd order electrical AND a notch filter. Can you guess how many percentage of people doing the same thing?

Your reservations in class D amps en masse as a category shows your prejudice for a technology that is perhaps better than many class AB, class A, and even tube amps.

That's the benefit of experience. Otherwise, I will build everything people rave about. But if you can provide 2 different recordings with different amps, blind test, you have a chance to change my prejudice Fair?

 

[Scottmoose]

To give you a perspective, take a look at the classic Vifa XT25. I crossed that tweeter at no lower than 3kHz with 3rd order electrical AND a notch filter. Can you guess how many percentage of people doing the same thing?

Don't get me started on the XT25. One of the best performing tweeters available for the money if it's used right -trouble is, it often isn't. Oh well.

 

[xrk971]

It IS balanced, and especially clear and detailed. But (like I said) it is not my cup of tea.

I don't like FR and I don't like simple crossovers simply because my ears are sensitive to peak/distortion/breakup. I have learned that no matter how flat a response is, if non-linear distortion is high, the effect is similar. Tiring to listen to. That's why I don't like the idea to put a driver to cover so wide bandwidth (unless it is qualified to do so).

To give you a perspective, take a look at the classic Vifa XT25. I crossed that tweeter at no lower than 3kHz with 3rd order electrical AND a notch filter. Can you guess how many percentage of people doing the same thing?



That's the benefit of experience. Otherwise, I will build everything people rave about. But if you can provide 2 different recordings with different amps, blind test, you have a chance to change my prejudice Fair?

The distortion on that speaker is about -50dB to -55dB above 100Hz at the volume used to record that clip - pretty low for any speaker. I don't think you can blame it on non linear HD.

Regarding different amps - I don't have any fancy class A amps. If you want I can repeat with a Yamaha RX360 class AB. Maybe folks can send me their amps next for testing with speakers ?

I can go back to 4th order LR XO at 500Hz as per the original design. It sounds quite good there and really cuts out the effect of the woofer on the mids. It isn't phase linear but that doesn't bother a lot of people.

I guess if you are going to compare this speaker with a big dollar Von Schweichert then it's probably safe to say, the value of a $300 speaker is definitely there.

If the lack of a super high end bother people, simple enough to add say an XT25 on top in a 3-way as super tweeter above 8kHz before cone breakup on the 10F.

The miniDSP could be easily switched to active 3 or 4 way. I don't have an XT25 though.

 

[Jay]

The distortion on that speaker is about -50dB to -55dB above 100Hz

H2 alone?

I don't think you can blame it on non linear HD.

Surprising that Scan Speak only tag it $100 then... While 12M almost 3 times of that price What is in 12M that make it so more expensive???

Regarding different amps - I don't have any fancy class A amps. If you want I can repeat with a Yamaha RX360 class AB. Maybe folks can send me their amps next for testing with speakers ?

I would be glad to have the file. Just make sure they have equal capacitor quality in critical positions.

I can go back to 4th order LR XO at 500Hz as per the original design. It sounds quite good there and really cuts out the effect of the woofer on the mids. It isn't phase linear but that doesn't bother a lot of people.

It doesn't bother people because they assume that it is inaudible. Actually, phase is the main issue with steep crossover.

I guess if you are going to compare this speaker with a big dollar Von Schweichert then it's probably safe to say, the value of a $300 speaker is definitely there.

I believe so. But aluminum cone in first order crossover?? Naaah.

I planned this combo: RS225-RS52-XT25

If the lack of a super high end bother people, simple enough to add say an XT25 on top in a 3-way as super tweeter above 8kHz before cone breakup on the 10F.

So the 10F has cone breakup in the audible range... You knew precisely that I wanted a tweeter above the 10F.

 

[Jay]

Don't get me started on the XT25. One of the best performing tweeters available for the money if it's used right -trouble is, it often isn't. Oh well.

Do you want to share tip and trick on how to treat this tweeter well?

Do the inferior off-axis performance matters to you? Or you compensate with waveguide?

 

[Scottmoose]

This being the full-range forum it didn't seem the place. Since you ask, no doubt I have a similar take to yourself. However, FWIW:

-No, the off-axis performance doesn't usually concern me, but this is context dependent, i.e. depends what the speaker is for. If superior off-axis performance is required to meet the design criteria, I'd probably select a different tweeter. In roughly the same price bracket, the Seas 27TDFC comes to mind. Ditto if I wanted a lower XO frequency. Waveguide loading helps; I haven't used them over-much. Nothing against them, just haven't got especially involved.

-As for using the XT25 & its SS variations: from my POV an LCR on the F0 impedance peak is all-but-mandatory if crossing < 3KHz, and if a reasonable amount of power-handling is needed, 4th order acoustical slopes above 2KHz are preferred, which usually means at least 3rd order electrical. If memory serves I've used it down to 1.8KHz on a 4th order Bessel without the HD becoming objectionable, but that one was really a 1.30am speaker for undemanding close-mic acoustic material. It's only got the radiating area of a 3/4in dome or thereabouts, so as a rule, I treat it in a similar way, as far as XO frequencies and slopes are concerned anyway.

 

[Jay]

Thanks Scottmoose. About the waveguide for XT25, my experiment/prototyping showed that the shape, dimension and possible construction technique was too difficult to realize, mainly caused by unusual throat diameter. Fortunately, I have never found its roll-off behavior to be a problem (yet) and waveguide was needed only to bring the tweeter to 2k4. At the end I decided that this tweeter is too good to be crossed low so I changed to other tweeter for 2k4 duty.

 

[xrk971]

This is where 3d printing comes in handy for a waveguide.

 

[sayrum]

Hey
sorry for the ot:
this might be interessting: XT25TG-30/4 + wave guide

now btt please
http://heissmann-acoustics.de/test-vifa-xt-300-xt25tg-waveguide-wg-300/

 

[xrk971]

Some more OT but relevant to last post - nice work by Onni (I have one of his SEOS WG's for a 1 inch CD but haven't printed it yet):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/273053-3d-printing-4.html#post4300019

Measurements here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/273053-3d-printing-5.html#post4300670

 

[BYRTT]

I haven't gone thru all the posts but this is an interesting comment and is very useful.

XRK971 sent me a high-res (flac) clip of his RS225-10F FAST and I didn't like the sound for what I believe the drivers are capable of. But he said he used $30 Class-D amp... which I believe I wouldn't like... So it seems I need to give room for Dave's comment.

Hi Jay long time,

Think you take content out of planet10 post in wrong way and then point that to RS225-10F FAST high-res clip, because planet10 just express his opinion this thread is useless for weight of driver value and signature.

If this thread is useless i don't think is your opinion actual i count you to find a comparison taken under same conditions as this thread do or the new round two where you seems very active to be very usefull to compare signature the drivers when at first one have dialed into the environment that includes gear and room at xrk971 place, or at least we can have some process fun or good way to exercise critical listening skills.

Know you have a sharper ear and tons of audio experience more than most of us and if at same combined use of analyzing and measurement tools you unbeatable.

Gets confused you real opinion if higher order phase turn lets say its aligned is audioable because there is a comment "I don't like simple crossovers" another say "3kHz with 3rd order electric" and then a phase comment saying "phase is the main issue with steep crossover".

Great to exchange experience discuss and make construtive critical shooting for RS225-10F FAST and get it is not your cup of tea, but find it bit off when pointing to xrk971 should make the build 3 way because that was not design target and in fact he has a very serious 3 way with Heil AMT tweeter, design target was to get a single full ranger to perform better setting it up as FAST with drivers a step or two higher in cost and better objective datasheets than cheap ones.

I'm among the others xrk971 point to have praised the high-res 60Mb flac sound clip and think it sounds great. Its XO setup so far is relative very simple in that miniDSP only configured to make a Linkwitz transform from think 52Hz to 40-42Hz and a electric textbook BW1 set at 350Hz and last miniDSP task is the drivers acoustic center alignment on axis. Then he let the in class beatifull smooth response do the rest. Now think what happens if he can find a acoustic environment good enough to measure and dial in with EQ too so drivers get textbook acoustic BW1 slopes at say on axis 2 meters, then speaker class squarer waves will pump out from 100Hz to 3200Hz still being a minimum phase domain speaker.

Could be interesting hear your opinion another xrk971 sound clip i find excellent, its in post 75 this link and pick the first clip http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/268037-fast-tl-8.html#post4192688.

 

[Barleywater]

Here is 6 panel view of tested drivers. I omitted RS100P-4 due to similarity to RS100-4, also making a fairly clear single overview. Assuming speakers where measured at same place in room, with same microphone placement, the spectrogram views reveal both frequency response differences, and directivity differences between the 6 drivers.

If measurement assumptions are correct, let me know and I can produce normalized amplitude response spectograms revealing more detail of directivity differences between drivers.

 

[Jay]

Hi Jay long time,

Think you take content out of planet10 post in wrong way and then point that to RS225-10F FAST high-res clip, because planet10 just express his opinion this thread is useless for weight of driver value and signature.

What I understood is that P10's trying to explain the constraints in the listening test, to prove his point that people should not use the result to decide on driver purchase etc.

I'm just being open minded. We all know that remote listening can never be the same with direct listening. But how far the available constraints can be used to justify his point that the test is "useless", is only a suggestion. I believe that even if it is not perfect, it is sufficiently good and useful.

X clips were actually very good. May be subjectively, I'm open minded, depends on the criteria. Later clips from X were even better.

Gets confused you real opinion if higher order phase turn lets say its aligned is audioable because there is a comment "I don't like simple crossovers" another say "3kHz with 3rd order electric" and then a phase comment saying "phase is the main issue with steep crossover".

I don't understand you with this paragraph. Are those my words in quotes?

"I don't like simple crossovers" because I believe my ears are extremely sensitive to distortion. My friend owned a high end store selling boutique components including tubes that cost a fortune, but I couldn't stay longer in his house if he didn't turn the system off. I have tried LR2 and I couldn't accept the distortion. I have heard others LR2 design, same result. I remember when I used crossoverless Lowther. Very enjoyable, but after listening for a few hours I always found my ears hot and ringing.

So yes, I want good phase but I want no distortion either. So it must start with drivers that has low-linear distortion, has smooth roll-off, then find the simplest crossover that will put distortion at optimal value.

Great to exchange experience discuss and make construtive critical shooting for RS225-10F FAST and get it is not your cup of tea, but find it bit off when pointing to xrk971 should make the build 3 way because that was not design target and in fact he has a very serious 3 way with Heil AMT tweeter, design target was to get a single full ranger to perform better setting it up as FAST with drivers a step or two higher in cost and better objective datasheets than cheap ones.

It was just a "suggestion". I knew it was a FAST demonstration. And that I'm not a FR guy, that should be clear, no offense to FR guys And I think X understand that.

Remember the debate between JonBocani and 5th_Element in the other thread. Like most debates, all are correct. Just like 7 blind people trying to describe an elephant, all are correct but at the same time none can see the bigger picture.

 

[Cal Weldon]

I finally got to hear the Vifa TC9FD 18-08. Not quite the same as the Vifas tested but I am hoping they are close enough to evaluate. They are in a sealed 6 litre box with no filters. I played a test disc I use to evaluate.

So I'm listening to song after song thinking something must be wrong with my ears. These drivers are well respected. Inexpensive, yes, but drivers that won a listening contest. OK, so what's wrong?

There was little bass, that's to be expected.
The mids were in your face, no perceived depth or soundstage.
The highs, especially cymbals sounds like plastic similar to those 99 cent mylar tweeters.

Hmmm... guess I'll turn it off and try later. On second thought I have some salvaged JVC drivers on hand that I know sound really good, I'll just pop them in to compare.

A different world. The music returned. There was at least a little bass, the mids had depth and the cymbals sounded like cymbals.

Swap them back and all that went away. Now don't be mad, I'm not here to bad mouth the drivers or use ambiguous terms that may or may not be relevant, I am here to say that the JVC drivers, which were satellites in an HT system are leaps and bounds ahead. There's no comparison. So that begs the question what is it about the Vifas and the test that made them win? I know everyone's ears are different but this is not something you hum and haw over, this is night and day. I'm just curious, not here to beat my chest, what it was about the way they were presented that made them win?

I wish more than that, that some of you could come on over and have a listen.

2 cents.