@Andre Bellwood What do you think about Xcite, are they also clueless?
I could insert some printed TPU parts to hold the exciter in place, but I do think that can be risky as well because even the slightest misalignment would probably be worse than gravity. I guess that is why they recommend to avoid bracing.
Even with the good precision of 3D printed parts, I think it is hard to make a bracing that is 100% guaranteed not to cause any misalignment. Perhaps using a frame with machined metal parts like Tectonic seem to do could work, but for DIY it is not that easy to solve.
Soundimports admit sag can be an issue on the Daytons, but claims that Xcite has been trying to fix that. I would think that means that Xcite have tested what they are trying to fix, and while soundimports said they of course they cannot know if they will last for many years, they do clearly recommend against bracing.
I could insert some printed TPU parts to hold the exciter in place, but I do think that can be risky as well because even the slightest misalignment would probably be worse than gravity. I guess that is why they recommend to avoid bracing.
Even with the good precision of 3D printed parts, I think it is hard to make a bracing that is 100% guaranteed not to cause any misalignment. Perhaps using a frame with machined metal parts like Tectonic seem to do could work, but for DIY it is not that easy to solve.
Soundimports admit sag can be an issue on the Daytons, but claims that Xcite has been trying to fix that. I would think that means that Xcite have tested what they are trying to fix, and while soundimports said they of course they cannot know if they will last for many years, they do clearly recommend against bracing.
Hoping our old friend, @BurntCoil, returns soon. He started a great project on new exciter designs:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dml-exciter-design.393544/post-7209266
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dml-exciter-design.393544/post-7209266
Leob:
Can I ask why you don't just fashion a hanger support as described in past posts and be done with it?... Flexible, fixed to the panel itself, no effect on the sound, no more bracing needed...You printed the corner brackets, print a trial hanger and test it
Edit ..I see your later post answered this in part. I can tell you that I have been using hanger supports since my first build and have had no problems at all. The first ones were fashioned from modified plastic coathangers with pivot mounts on the panels, later ones simply used modified zip ties..Again ... No problems at all so far
Eucy
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Hi Leob,
I've been in direct contact with the guys at Xcite, and they seem to be a helluva lot more knowledgeable and helpful than other suppliers/manufacturers. I have no doubt that they will be solving the sagging issue soon.
The other thing is that the technical support at Dayton and Parts Express etc are not manufacturers. They are merely retailers. Dayton drivers come from BillionSound, China. Whereas the Xcite blokes, as far as I know, are the hands-on designers of their own product.
In the mean time, when I get Xcite drivers, I will be mounting the motor magnet through a hole in the back plate, centre it very carefully while laying the whole assembly flat on the workbench, and then seal the driver into place with something that will support and keep it stable over the long run. Until one of the manufacturers come up with very good evidence that the suspension is sufficient to counter the sagging issue, and that heavy drivers do not require bracing, then I'll just play safe.
@Andre Bellwood
You have any good ideas how to mount the motor magnet to the back plate?
The back of the Xite is not even, and seems very easy to get some slight misalignment, especially when trying to mount a cluster of 4 exciters.
One can make it more forgiving by using a softer more compliant material to hold up the exciter, but how much does it help in that case? Then there will be room for sagging eventually as well. And you also need to make sure it doesn't push or pull on the exciter at all, which will reduce sensitivity and possibly cause distortion as well. So you really need a very precise solution that is rigid enough to be very stable over time with a lot of playing and handling.
And due to the shape of the back of the exciter, I would get very limited adhesion surface, so I think it will be some risk that it will not stick over time, which would also cause distortion. I could cover the whole exciter to improve adhesion, but that would result in bad ventilation.
Have you discussed sagging and bracing with Xcite? I did reach out to them on Facebook but never got a reply there, so I should probably mail them instead.
You have any good ideas how to mount the motor magnet to the back plate?
The back of the Xite is not even, and seems very easy to get some slight misalignment, especially when trying to mount a cluster of 4 exciters.
One can make it more forgiving by using a softer more compliant material to hold up the exciter, but how much does it help in that case? Then there will be room for sagging eventually as well. And you also need to make sure it doesn't push or pull on the exciter at all, which will reduce sensitivity and possibly cause distortion as well. So you really need a very precise solution that is rigid enough to be very stable over time with a lot of playing and handling.
And due to the shape of the back of the exciter, I would get very limited adhesion surface, so I think it will be some risk that it will not stick over time, which would also cause distortion. I could cover the whole exciter to improve adhesion, but that would result in bad ventilation.
Have you discussed sagging and bracing with Xcite? I did reach out to them on Facebook but never got a reply there, so I should probably mail them instead.
I could print out
For the plate I'm testing with Xcites, I'm using the same brace construction as I used before, but only to help with cable management and to offer som protection against bumping the exciters. You cannot really see in the picture, but there is around 10mm space between the brace and exciters.
I could easily add some printed TPU spacers that holds up the exciters, but I'm still not really convinced it would be a good idea. It seems logical, and is what I did with my Daytons, but they still developed issues and makes things much more complicated and sensitive to the tiniest misalignments.
Probably what I should do is run a low frequency sine for extended time, same as when preconditioning woofers. That should soften up the suspension and make them sag...if there is an issue with the Xcites as well.
I can pint out a holder that fits in the pattern on the back of the Xcite to keep the exciter in place with very good precision, or use some kind of putty as you suggest. But it is not that easy to ensure that there is no stress in any direction, especially if you want to keep as much as possible of the back of the exciter open to avoid overheating. The screw holes on the Daytons makes it easier, but even then it was a bit tricky. With the Xcite it is even harder.
For the plate I'm testing with Xcites, I'm using the same brace construction as I used before, but only to help with cable management and to offer som protection against bumping the exciters. You cannot really see in the picture, but there is around 10mm space between the brace and exciters.
I could easily add some printed TPU spacers that holds up the exciters, but I'm still not really convinced it would be a good idea. It seems logical, and is what I did with my Daytons, but they still developed issues and makes things much more complicated and sensitive to the tiniest misalignments.
Probably what I should do is run a low frequency sine for extended time, same as when preconditioning woofers. That should soften up the suspension and make them sag...if there is an issue with the Xcites as well.
Attachments
Hi Leob,
This is how I mounted the 30HESF-4 to my back plates. I strip the adhesive tape off the front of the driver and mount it to the front panel with epoxy, The motor magnet is not a tight fit in the hole in the backplate, and I run a bead of silicon all around it to keep it snug. This means that I can centre everything perfectly without alignment problems while the adhesives cure overnight.
Yes, the sticker is removed off the magnet.
I'm using the back plate as a damper/attenuator for the rear wave on stage (so it's not so loud for the musos), and also just to improve the looks for an installation. The other smaller drivers (25FHE's) are mounted via their threaded holes on the inside of the back plate, and you can see only their mounting screws. The 25FHE's are about 6mm shallower than the 30HESF's, and that's another reason that I use adhesives that will cure relatively slowly: The HESF is free to find its own level relative to the height of the 25FHE's which determine the distance from the backplate to the front panel.
Using this method it should be easy to mount the Xciters irrespective the shape of their plastic shrouds. I suspect that epoxy might not adhere to those shrouds (I don't know what material it is) and it might be difficult to mount them directly to a flat brace given their uneven shape.
No I did not address this. When I get my Xciters I'll assess them properly. But I think the above method is a universal solution irrespective the shape and adhesion characteristics of the device.
Hmmm... A cluster like that makes individual hangers impractical...Personally, I'd try and opt for a printed support plate that encompassed all 4 exciters, and fitted over them so the plane of the plate lies on the centre of gravity of the exciter. That plate could in turn be supported from your bracing arrangement. A tad complicated but worth a try. Similar concept to Andre's but without a full backing plate
https://www.parts-express.com/Tectonic-TEAX32C20-8-32mm-Self-Supported-Exciter-8-297-2114?quantity=1
This is the only self supporting exciter that I would use on a rigid panel, but I would have to change how it is mounted to the panel.
Thinking about it, you could probably do something similar to an ordinary exciter ? For testing purposes.
For using multiple exciters on pro gear, I would still use a back brace (probably).
Further back on this thread I posted a short video of two exciters on a panel, they were both reacting different to the panel at low frequencies.
At high power, even with a 100hz cross over this could still be a problem ?
This could be a reason for odd exciter failures on the same panel.
I have still not seen an answer to this problem .
I seem to remember tectonic (i think)discussing this problem and their partial remedy?
These problems (i think)are mainly for high power pro audio gear.
Unless you are using a very inefficient heavy panel , a single exciter with an XO of 100hz should be enough for most peoples audio rooms.
Steve.
This is the only self supporting exciter that I would use on a rigid panel, but I would have to change how it is mounted to the panel.
Thinking about it, you could probably do something similar to an ordinary exciter ? For testing purposes.
For using multiple exciters on pro gear, I would still use a back brace (probably).
Further back on this thread I posted a short video of two exciters on a panel, they were both reacting different to the panel at low frequencies.
At high power, even with a 100hz cross over this could still be a problem ?
This could be a reason for odd exciter failures on the same panel.
I have still not seen an answer to this problem .
I seem to remember tectonic (i think)discussing this problem and their partial remedy?
These problems (i think)are mainly for high power pro audio gear.
Unless you are using a very inefficient heavy panel , a single exciter with an XO of 100hz should be enough for most peoples audio rooms.
Steve.
Although it is of very little difference for pro use, it would be interesting to know how noisy the plastic casing is, compared to a ordinary exciter?
The hdn8 has a very noisy plastic casing , shall we call it self-noise 😀
Ordinary exciters produce noise even when they are not attached to anything, does the casing on the Xcite exciter produce noise or reduce noise?
Everything about the Xcite seems pretty standard to me, except the magnet?
I would still expect sagging to be a problem.
Steve.
The hdn8 has a very noisy plastic casing , shall we call it self-noise 😀
Ordinary exciters produce noise even when they are not attached to anything, does the casing on the Xcite exciter produce noise or reduce noise?
Everything about the Xcite seems pretty standard to me, except the magnet?
I would still expect sagging to be a problem.
Steve.
I cannot comment on the reliability claims yet, but the difference in sound quality between the DAEX30HESF-4 and X32-4 is astonishing really. I thought the description sounded like a lot of hype when I read it, but it really seems to be a big improvement over the other exciters I have tested.
No noise from the casing what I have noticed.
price... $30 pounds... https://www.soundimports.eu/en/xcite-xt32-4.html
Pretty sure some of these are in my future.
Pretty sure some of these are in my future.