500€ DAC, in search of suggestions

[00940]

Hi,

I've been asked by a friend how good a DAC one could build for 500€. I've not followed closely what was out those days as far as kits go, so I'd be really glad if I could gather suggestions on what is considered as "good value" those days.

The requirements are:

- Less than 500€, case included;
- For the smallish smd stuff, I'd rather use kits with the expensive smd ICs pre-soldered or prebuilt modules (I take chances for my own stuff, not with someone's else money);
- I'm not after cute wima red caps or NOS stuff

What I had thought of as an easy to put together DAC :

- WM8084 spdif receiver from sure-electronics (15€)
- Amanero usb receiver (69€)
- OTTO-II mux from Twisted Pear (30$)
- A WM8741 Opus from Twisted Pear (75$)
- Neutrik NTL1 or Sowter 3575 or Lundahl LL1527 as output stage (100-120€).
- Galaxy 40-330-230 case (30€)
- Connectors, homemade PS (60€).

So about 400€ before shipping costs.


I'm a bit unsure about the quality of the wm8404 board...

 

[esgigt]

ESS9018...

my 2 cents

 

[abraxalito]

Can't quite figure out the logic of putting some expensive trafos after such a cheap and relatively poor-sounding DAC chip..... I'd have thought that with those, you'd want a TDA1541A or at least a PCM63 to feed them? Is it that there aren't any decent kits around based on those chips?

 

[00940]

@esgigt: yes, even I can't ignore the ES9018. It's gonna be a real tight fit under 500€ though.

Can't quite figure out the logic of putting some expensive trafos after such a cheap and relatively poor-sounding DAC chip..... I'd have thought that with those, you'd want a TDA1541A or at least a PCM63 to feed them? Is it that there aren't any decent kits around based on those chips?

Everything is quite subjective in this hobby and I'm affraid our tastes differ quite a bit. I never got why people are so obsessed with the tda1541a. PCM63 is probably ok, never heard it in a good implementation. But kits with df1706+pcm63/1704 and decent layout get pricey fast. I can search a bit more around.

And the wm8740 sounds fine to me (I liked what I heard from some Arcam cdps using those). Actually, my chip of choice would be the PCM1794. But then I need more supplies for the I/V stage.

Thing is, those transformers are pretty expensive but save a lot of hassle and other parts. They also are the only suitable ones you can get in the EU.

 

[abraxalito]

Everything is quite subjective in this hobby and I'm affraid our tastes differ quite a bit.

Listening is totally subjective, I'd agree. And also from previous discussions I'm aware that about the only thing we've agreed on so far is that trafos are fine to put in an audio appliance without worries about distortion.

You didn't say in your original post what 'good' meant to your friend - 'good' measurements or 'good' sound? And if the latter, according to his (seems less likely to be 'her') taste or yours?

I never got why people are so obsessed with the tda1541a.

I've not done any listening to one myself in a well worked out implementation, but even on paper it beats the pants off any other 16bit chip for THD+N. Of course if your friend needs 24bits its ruled out.

PCM63 is probably ok, never heard it in a good implementation. But kits with df1706+pcm63/1704 and decent layout get pricey fast. I can search a bit more around.

PCM1702 might be more easy to find, being a newer chip.I've noticed more than one design on Taobao but perhaps the layouts suck. But I'd avoid the DF myself, just reduces dynamics.

 

[esgigt]

Quote:
I never got why people are so obsessed with the tda1541a.

I've not done any listening to one myself in a well worked out implementation, but even on paper it beats the pants off any other 16bit chip for THD+N. Of course if your friend needs 24bits its ruled out.

Recently I bought a cheap 24/192K dac (AK4396), which costed me some € 25,- and an additional € 35,- to modify the board. with a 2x15V transformer it already sounds better than the TDA1541A S1 in my CD player. And I'm not done yet. So, I'm one of the people that do not share that obsession, having heard both extensively.

From my point of view, investing in higher quality, PSU, Receiver, DAC, clock and especially the I/V filter, will sort more effect than investing in expensive output-trafo's. What you lose at the start, you'll never make up at the end.

 

[abraxalito]

Hearing one implementation in a CD player (which CD player btw?) hardly counts as 'hearing something extensively'. Seems likely if the chip's in a CD player it has opamp I/V - if so then you're not hearing the DAC so much as the O/P stage and its PSU.

I agree with your final remark - GIGO. In fact its the other way around in practice - the hash you add at the start can never be removed, only amplified. The result though is the same. Hence putting a soso DAC chip in can't be redeemed no matter how much is spent on PSUs and downstream I/V stages and trafos.

 

[esgigt]

Hearing one implementation in a CD player (which CD player btw?) hardly counts as 'hearing something extensively'. Seems likely if the chip's in a CD player it has opamp I/V - if so then you're not hearing the DAC so much as the O/P stage and its PSU.

I agree with your final remark - GIGO. In fact its the other way around in practice - the hash you add at the start can never be removed, only amplified. The result though is the same. Hence putting a soso DAC chip in can't be redeemed no matter how much is spent on PSUs and downstream I/V stages and trafos.

CD player is CD880. I've been comparing both DACs for several days using a wide range of music. Both DACs use opamps CD880: ne5532, AK4396: OPA2604, but even with the ne5532, which I replaced, the AK4398 sounded better.

Imho listening to a DAC without using opamps etc. comes down to (partially) listening to PSU and peripheral components/implementation. So, please explain how one should make a setup in which one only listens to the DAC?

 

[abraxalito]

I don't know how one could listen purely to the DAC, one can only take steps to minimize the contributions of the following stages. Having a stiff power supply for the active stages is certainly a necessary step. Implementing a passive filter is another as in general passive circuits contribute less to the sound than active ones.

In your case listening to the TDA1541A via a 5532 as I/V is really barely listening to the DAC at all. This is because its input stage is overloaded on a regular basis with the fast edges arising from the TDA. Its no wonder you've yet to become captivated by the sound of that DAC chip.

 

[esgigt]

In your case listening to the TDA1541A via a 5532 as I/V is really barely listening to the DAC at all. This is because its input stage is overloaded on a regular basis with the fast edges arising from the TDA. Its no wonder you've yet to become captivated by the sound of that DAC chip.

I always had the impression this part of the implementation sucked

 

[00940]

Could we avoid this being turned into a war about the TDA ?

It turns out that I also agree with GIGO. I just don't think that the amanero nor a wm8804 are exactly garbage parts, nor is the wm8741. The output transformers are expensive but you pay for convenience (bal to se and some hf filtering without another active stage with its supply).

But I'm still reading on the es9018 various implementations. And I noticed the Fetaudio kits, which are interesting on paper: FET Audio | Hi-End Audio ProjectsFDA-2A AD1955-WM8805 DAC kit launched now

 

[esgigt]

Could we avoid this being turned into a war about the TDA ?

I did not intend to start one. The discussion just awakened my curiosity to the subject. E.g. what abraxalito wrote about the input-stage of the ne5532, was completely unknown to me. But I agree with you that the discussion was bound to hijack your thread, for which I apologize.

But I'm still reading on the es9018 various implementations. And I noticed the Fetaudio kits, which are interesting on paper: FET Audio | Hi-End Audio ProjectsFDA-2A AD1955-WM8805 DAC kit launched now

Please keep us informed...

 

[00940]

No worry. Just a preemptive strike ;-)

If you're interested by the issue (problems and solutions) of opamps as I/V converters, there are some classical readings, such as:

Op amp myths – by Barrie Gilbert | EDN
http://www.linearaudio.nl/linearaudio.nl/images/pdf/Are Op Amps Really Linear.pdf
Andy_c has posted somewhere on the web a thread on the effect of the capacitor in // with the I/V resistor, which reduces the problems quite a lot for modern DAC with a lot of oversampling. This has been completed by quite a few posts by jcx on this topic on this forum (notably wrt to the rising output impedance of the opamp).

But, yeah, a ne5532 at a tda1541 output isn't really optimal.

 

[abraxalito]

Malcolm Hawksford has a very useful paper on the topic entitled 'Current Steering Transimpedance Amplifiers for Hi-Res D/As' which for some reason Google doesn't want to find me. Has Prof Hawksford's page of interesting AES papers been taken down does anyone know?

 

[00940]

It's still on Peufeu's website. http://peufeu.free.fr/audio/iv.pdf

No idea about the original webpage.

 

[abraxalito]

Cool, that link works for me now but a few mins ago I got a 'page not found' error (in French) from it. Perhaps Pierre is hosting it because the original has vanished...

 

[ClaveFremen]

I've been asked by a friend how good a DAC one could build for 500€.

If an already built solution is acceptable you can't go wrong with an Arcam iRDAC (different from RDAC).

 

[esgigt]

Malcolm Hawksford has a very useful paper on the topic entitled 'Current Steering Transimpedance Amplifiers for Hi-Res D/As' which for some reason Google doesn't want to find me. Has Prof Hawksford's page of interesting AES papers been taken down does anyone know?

You mean this one: AES E-Library Current-Steering Transimpedance Amplifiers for High-Resolution Digital-to-Analogue Converters ?

On Ti's website I've found this document: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbaa150/sbaa150.pdf

 

[androa76]

For price 250€ i can sell you
Buffalo 3 dac assembled, tweaked optimised, because you know original version had some problems...
DAC kit contains:
-Buffalo 3 dac
-4Trident regulators..optimized vith oscon and cog capacitors. Analog tirdent reg, has installed new lov noise opamp of course cap optimized.
-4-Channel S/PDIF (or AES-EBU) Level Converter Kit
-toslink module
-IVY 3 analog stage modified with wishay resistors, Silmic 2 capacitors, Styroflex caps and buffer opamp lm4562 replaced first with LME49720 in metal can but after a lot of listening DUAL adapter with Ultralownoise and distorsion UVERTURE opamp LME49990 gives smoother midrange-high range, highs are ultra resolutive but no so agressive, and bass has more weight. Much more pleasant for long time listening.
for only 50€ you can get SALAS shunt regulator for 5V and diyzone shunt regulator for Analog stage Ivy 3 +-15v 300mA

I have 3 month year baby and hobby is stopped for some time. I don*t have time and place to make appropriate enclosure for that dac
For 50€ you get beautifull enclosure...one day of work and you have very very good DAC.
I compared it on a very serrious hi-end gear with modified MINIMAXsabre dac and MODIFIED Buffalo is much better...Original Buffalo vs modified MINIMAX is very similar.

Nice greet Davorin

 

[Ardahan]

Can I recommend to consider these:

Buffalo 3 in the post before me,

Also OPUS is good to go as you can read here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twis...ning-simple-balanced-dac-194.html#post3443546

DAC END R here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/249651-fs-dac-end-r-pics.html

New version 2 is on going GB here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/quan...-es9018-full-assembled-board-version-2-a.html

and amanero here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/216474-usb-i2s-384khz-dsd-converter.html or can buy with DAC END R v2 GB

DDDAC PCM1794 NOS DAC:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html
DDDAC 1794 NOS DAC - Non Oversampling DAC with PCM1794 - no digital filter - modular design DIY DAC for high resolution audio 192/24 192kHz 24bit

Buffalo III/IIIse, DAC END R v2 and DDDAC is my strong considered DACs and recommendations as I read them through. (I don't own any of these as for now or before)

Audiosector USB or SPDIF NOS DAC
DIY Chip Amplifier Kits, PCB's, Components and Information.

Audio-gd
ºÍ§Ó*µ响

AK4396/PCM5102:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/236028-xmos-dsd-384-khz-32bit-usb.html
Products - I2S over USB Audio

and cheap akm AK4393 DAC and small mod:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...-ak4393-dac-kit-cs8416-ak4393-5532-a-266.html
An AKM DAC (any) is my second wanna obtain DAC.

And some other options that I don't recall at first

First/new DAC to buy is a bit confusing (at least for me) so you/your friend need good read about others experience and find your 'will be happy point'.
Good luck