Hi sketchyphish,
For what it's worth - the horn profile would be very close to a simple exponential flare.
Kind regards,
David
Phi and the Top for Tat
Hello,
yeah im aware that the horn is close to an EF but its specifically the fact that this item uses the ratios of the golden number.
This has been a very specific number in ancient and modern civilizations that relate to art, science and architexture not to mention audio. If we can work something out (as im still a bit of a noob at HR, and need to get a good CAD program) that would be great.
As for the tops that epa suggested i was getting confused on what was what on that post so wanted to check whether he was on about http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/190647-top-tap-11.html#post2653587.
If so then this cabinet would be much wider than the TH i was suggested. Really what im looking for is something that will sit nicely atop the TH's.
I was looking at going three way so i need to cover say 120hz to whatever the high's drop off at.
Of course i havent looked at HF drivers yet so want to design from the bottom up if my crossover for mid/top is somewhere between 800/1000hz then this may make the mid design easier.
I quite like the look of these MT-130. What i really want is separate mids and tops so i can arrange the sound better.
Maybe i should be going for something that isnt a horn, but then thats why im here to get the best advice on the net...........Pheeeewww
P.L.U.R
Hello,
yeah im aware that the horn is close to an EF but its specifically the fact that this item uses the ratios of the golden number.
This has been a very specific number in ancient and modern civilizations that relate to art, science and architexture not to mention audio. If we can work something out (as im still a bit of a noob at HR, and need to get a good CAD program) that would be great.
As for the tops that epa suggested i was getting confused on what was what on that post so wanted to check whether he was on about http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/190647-top-tap-11.html#post2653587.
If so then this cabinet would be much wider than the TH i was suggested. Really what im looking for is something that will sit nicely atop the TH's.
I was looking at going three way so i need to cover say 120hz to whatever the high's drop off at.
Of course i havent looked at HF drivers yet so want to design from the bottom up if my crossover for mid/top is somewhere between 800/1000hz then this may make the mid design easier.
I quite like the look of these MT-130. What i really want is separate mids and tops so i can arrange the sound better.
Maybe i should be going for something that isnt a horn, but then thats why im here to get the best advice on the net...........Pheeeewww
P.L.U.R
I'm guessing by your comment that it doesnt matter if the horn is narrower and taller, as its the mouth circumference that decides the response, pressuming that it will still effect the spread. Sorry for seeming nieve but i need to find out which parts of HR effect the band width, HF cutoff and LF cutoff. I have looked but its not clear, and well id quite like to design a horn that will fit atop the TH's without a HF driver as i would like this to be separate (i undesrtand that i can just leave it out of the above design) but any links to the effects each parameter has in HR will allow me to design something different.
I would like to have a go at tweaking some existing designs, but somehow can never get the responses that others get. What were peoples thoughts on the MT-130 it looks like a nice cabinet that will fit ?
I would like to have a go at tweaking some existing designs, but somehow can never get the responses that others get. What were peoples thoughts on the MT-130 it looks like a nice cabinet that will fit ?
the lf cut is determent by the flair /lenght and mouth,
a smaller troath gives some extension on the top end of the bandwidth.
the easy way is to let hr calculate the horn.
punch in the driver you want to use>tools>systemdesign>with driver>put in lf and hf cuts.
when your happy >shematic diagram>export>horndata.
then you get a textfile with all crossections
a smaller troath gives some extension on the top end of the bandwidth.
the easy way is to let hr calculate the horn.
punch in the driver you want to use>tools>systemdesign>with driver>put in lf and hf cuts.
when your happy >shematic diagram>export>horndata.
then you get a textfile with all crossections
i tired this approach and found it quite wonderful, except the dimentions. The main problem at the moment is working out how to fit the horn mouth to the width i need.
I.e with the system design i get quite a wide horn, if i am meant to be using a specific horn shape/flare etc i cant wok out how to apply this to a specific cabinet width, i dont want them to be wide than the TH's and well not any or too much deeper as they will become unstable.
Basically i et the idea that if i use the mouth area/width i should get the mouth height, but i fea that sticking to a specific width will not give me the simmed horn ??
I.e with the system design i get quite a wide horn, if i am meant to be using a specific horn shape/flare etc i cant wok out how to apply this to a specific cabinet width, i dont want them to be wide than the TH's and well not any or too much deeper as they will become unstable.
Basically i et the idea that if i use the mouth area/width i should get the mouth height, but i fea that sticking to a specific width will not give me the simmed horn ??
So i get the idea now about getting data from HR. Ive attached the data to this post just as an example as i dont quite get how to use it.
I get the idea about the colums but the data seems inconsistent to me some values are less than others although they come after higher ones. I hav read about drawing out the values to create the horn but i cant get my head around drawing values that have no continuity.
If anyone is interested in giving me a quick explanation or pointing me to another source, as i am nearly at the point of actually designing the horns i would like, just need a few more pointers.
Of course the optimum horn that HR comes up with is too long, but im guessing that i can always fold the horn, if only i could get my head around the export data.
Oh and as a final thought, as the mids are a little more powerful than the bass is it worth just designing some reflex enclosures for them instead of going for horn mids ? Of course these are all low power drivers (for a reason) so efficiency and volume will come will horns........
Cheers all
I get the idea about the colums but the data seems inconsistent to me some values are less than others although they come after higher ones. I hav read about drawing out the values to create the horn but i cant get my head around drawing values that have no continuity.
If anyone is interested in giving me a quick explanation or pointing me to another source, as i am nearly at the point of actually designing the horns i would like, just need a few more pointers.
Of course the optimum horn that HR comes up with is too long, but im guessing that i can always fold the horn, if only i could get my head around the export data.
Oh and as a final thought, as the mids are a little more powerful than the bass is it worth just designing some reflex enclosures for them instead of going for horn mids ? Of course these are all low power drivers (for a reason) so efficiency and volume will come will horns........
Cheers all
UPDATE
Have finally aquired some nice 19mm ply and will commence build in 2 weeks.
Have decided the system will be 5 way.
TH sub, w bin kicks, TOA mids, Comp-44 mid/high and some ring radiators to do the say 8-10k and up as i have found out that the CD's bail out after about 10k.
anyways more to come, i will probably have a lot of fiddling to do to get it all working together.
Have finally aquired some nice 19mm ply and will commence build in 2 weeks.
Have decided the system will be 5 way.
TH sub, w bin kicks, TOA mids, Comp-44 mid/high and some ring radiators to do the say 8-10k and up as i have found out that the CD's bail out after about 10k.
anyways more to come, i will probably have a lot of fiddling to do to get it all working together.
Just thought I would update this post with some final pics.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v11m789u0mb3n3r/120203164833613.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhgef31baosas62/120200284833901.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e87msqyc8g8lc2s/132731230247473.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jyny49ljf7ju6yr/132731286914134.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v11m789u0mb3n3r/120203164833613.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhgef31baosas62/120200284833901.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e87msqyc8g8lc2s/132731230247473.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jyny49ljf7ju6yr/132731286914134.jpg
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Last edited:
@ sketchyphish
Hi it's been a while Your builds look Very nice I like the way you have managed to fold the grill edges & sink them into the sides of the boxes Or did you buy/get them already folded ? Anyway a nice touch & pro looking I wonder if there is enough Free Area in the grills for the air not to be constricted too much though ?
I havn't seen a mid driver with a metal dome for some years. Well it appears as if it is ? They can make a difference
What happened with the Ring Tweeters plan ? I agree, horns do roll off towards the top end
Have you done any gigs with it yet ? What Amps are you using for each bandwith ?
Regards
Hi it's been a while
Your builds look Very nice I like the way you have managed to fold the grill edges & sink them into the sides of the boxes Or did you buy/get them already folded ? Anyway a nice touch & pro looking I wonder if there is enough Free Area in the grills for the air not to be constricted too much though ?I havn't seen a mid driver with a metal dome for some years. Well it appears as if it is ? They can make a difference
What happened with the Ring Tweeters plan ? I agree, horns do roll off towards the top end
Have you done any gigs with it yet ? What Amps are you using for each bandwith ?
Regards
Hi thanks for the interest.
SO far I have painted the rig to match in colour and cleaned it up a lot more.
I ended up removing the grills in the end, but yes I had folded them, but found that because I used a router on the edges I had no where to attach.
The ring Radiators, well lets put it this was im in the process of moving back to the uk and I have ditched the tops. They were very heavy and old and not matched to the driver in anyway, more just something to fill the top end. Gave away the HF Horns to a friend, I built him some sealed 15" cabinets with the horns for some party speakers.
The Mids I still have, I really liked them actually, Old but good. They are HH Acoustics 1200E and i think handle about 200-250w which to be honest I was happy with, so ive kept them for now, maybe make some monitors. Ives seen 4 more on ebay that I may buy as I really liked these ones.
My plan it to replace the top end with some MT-130's. I was going to go with the MT-122 (double) x4, but i think this is too mucc for 4 subs and 4 single kick bins. SO will go with 4x MT-130 instead, they meet the 1" a lot better and throw a little further.
I had a few gigs with it so far. One Party in an old wine celler where the rig filled the end of the room (about 50m long), that was amazing bass and a good clear sound.
Then another outdoor festival in the Czech republic called Funny Moon. At this event I was only a little concerned with the direction of the bass, I had setup the kicks either side with the tops above them. Then place the two subs flat across the middle with the mouths together. I found that the bass was strong enough in the middle but to the sides it diminished too much. I blame this on the cheap light wood and probably my setup andgle as I had not way to test other than EARS.
Only let down at this festival was after 5 days one of the subs eventually started to smoke, but no dead. I guess my limiters were not quite set right and this was the first go at setting up the system so couldnt be sure. It was a Psy chillout gig, so lots of deep long basses, I think maybe the power compression came into it as she was running pretty much on full to achieve the levels I wanted from only 2 subs, hence now the plan is to have at least 4.
As for power I used a Camco DL30002P (3000w 4) bridged for the subs, I need to get an amp sharpish for the festival so ordered a T.Amp 2400 (3000w 4) for the Kicks again bridged. Delivered straight to a hilltop in Czech (GREAT !!)
For the Tops I used 2 what seemed to be custom built amps I got from a guy in Vienna 600w Mono blocks (well 2x 300w bridged inside), cant remember the actual make, but they were reliable. Then for the HF Horns I used a custom build amp by myself, using a pair of L25D (look on ebay) (2x 180w 8) a channel.
As for crossovers, 72hz of the subs, 220hz for the kicks (dont think those mid horns played that low) and 1.7khz for the mids. Using a Bunker BPD-1 Processor, which to be honest at the moment Im really happy with.
But yes, plan is to get back to the UK with all of my gear (from Austria) and start on the tops and sub cabinets. Once this is making its worth, I can concentrate the funds on the 10k (My dream rig).
I never really wanted more than 10k, you have to set a limit somehwere otherwise you go on forever. I just wanted to hit 10k, then make it the best sounding 10 k I can. I look at F1 etc and say, hey I got 20 years or so to get that good.
Anyway peace out, must get on wih work.
Geoff
SO far I have painted the rig to match in colour and cleaned it up a lot more.
I ended up removing the grills in the end, but yes I had folded them, but found that because I used a router on the edges I had no where to attach.
The ring Radiators, well lets put it this was im in the process of moving back to the uk and I have ditched the tops. They were very heavy and old and not matched to the driver in anyway, more just something to fill the top end. Gave away the HF Horns to a friend, I built him some sealed 15" cabinets with the horns for some party speakers.
The Mids I still have, I really liked them actually, Old but good. They are HH Acoustics 1200E and i think handle about 200-250w which to be honest I was happy with, so ive kept them for now, maybe make some monitors. Ives seen 4 more on ebay that I may buy as I really liked these ones.
My plan it to replace the top end with some MT-130's. I was going to go with the MT-122 (double) x4, but i think this is too mucc for 4 subs and 4 single kick bins. SO will go with 4x MT-130 instead, they meet the 1" a lot better and throw a little further.
I had a few gigs with it so far. One Party in an old wine celler where the rig filled the end of the room (about 50m long), that was amazing bass and a good clear sound.
Then another outdoor festival in the Czech republic called Funny Moon. At this event I was only a little concerned with the direction of the bass, I had setup the kicks either side with the tops above them. Then place the two subs flat across the middle with the mouths together. I found that the bass was strong enough in the middle but to the sides it diminished too much. I blame this on the cheap light wood and probably my setup andgle as I had not way to test other than EARS.
Only let down at this festival was after 5 days one of the subs eventually started to smoke, but no dead. I guess my limiters were not quite set right and this was the first go at setting up the system so couldnt be sure. It was a Psy chillout gig, so lots of deep long basses, I think maybe the power compression came into it as she was running pretty much on full to achieve the levels I wanted from only 2 subs, hence now the plan is to have at least 4.
As for power I used a Camco DL30002P (3000w 4) bridged for the subs, I need to get an amp sharpish for the festival so ordered a T.Amp 2400 (3000w 4) for the Kicks again bridged. Delivered straight to a hilltop in Czech (GREAT !!)
For the Tops I used 2 what seemed to be custom built amps I got from a guy in Vienna 600w Mono blocks (well 2x 300w bridged inside), cant remember the actual make, but they were reliable. Then for the HF Horns I used a custom build amp by myself, using a pair of L25D (look on ebay) (2x 180w 8) a channel.
As for crossovers, 72hz of the subs, 220hz for the kicks (dont think those mid horns played that low) and 1.7khz for the mids. Using a Bunker BPD-1 Processor, which to be honest at the moment Im really happy with.
But yes, plan is to get back to the UK with all of my gear (from Austria) and start on the tops and sub cabinets. Once this is making its worth, I can concentrate the funds on the 10k (My dream rig).
I never really wanted more than 10k, you have to set a limit somehwere otherwise you go on forever. I just wanted to hit 10k, then make it the best sounding 10 k I can. I look at F1 etc and say, hey I got 20 years or so to get that good.
Anyway peace out, must get on wih work.
Geoff
Geoff,
The drop in bass on the sides was a result of the destructive off axis interference from the interaction of the subs and kicks in the acoustical crossover region, right in the middle of the bass range.
The problem was a product of the crossover frequency and the separation distance between the subs and kicks (and time alignment between them if you have not already corrected the path length difference with DSP) not from the cheap light wood
.Art
As for the Drop in Bass,
I had time aligned the cabinets accordingly using the processor. The kicks were cut at 72hz with a 24db crossover. They bottom out at 67hz according to design.
Maybe the only thing was that the distance to the sweetspot was not aligned as they sat in the middle and the kicks on the outside.
I have included a picture for reference......
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nm6h1buc5bwh4ay/funnymoon.jpg
To be honest is was bass lower than the crossover, I was expecting it to eminate quite nicely from the centre horn out to at least 90 dg. The Dj got lots of nice bass, I def blame this on the light wood.
I had time aligned the cabinets accordingly using the processor. The kicks were cut at 72hz with a 24db crossover. They bottom out at 67hz according to design.
Maybe the only thing was that the distance to the sweetspot was not aligned as they sat in the middle and the kicks on the outside.
I have included a picture for reference......
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nm6h1buc5bwh4ay/funnymoon.jpg
To be honest is was bass lower than the crossover, I was expecting it to eminate quite nicely from the centre horn out to at least 90 dg. The Dj got lots of nice bass, I def blame this on the light wood.
Yes I had already mentioned in another one of my posts :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/250003-wbin-2x15.html
about closing them up.
This being that the horns themselves are long enough to get to 67hz and to be honest I think they would be a little tighter if i sealed up the ports.
See the post for more info.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/250003-wbin-2x15.html
about closing them up.
This being that the horns themselves are long enough to get to 67hz and to be honest I think they would be a little tighter if i sealed up the ports.
See the post for more info.
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