We recently had "Horn vs Open baffle bass"
But as you know, most of the music is in the mids, and the need for a massive horn doesn’t apply over the mids.
Driver budget say max $US 300 per side.
Over 300 Hz, room modes are less of an issue, though still effect sound quality
And good off axis response is *highly desirable.
So to start the discissions, some contenders from both ‘corners’:
Horn:
Not my area, though maybe will be:
PHL/ Audax Pro 170/ Fostex??/ B&C 6PEV13 or with Faraday ring B&C 8PE21: dB = ??
I hear conical horns are best. Are pyramidical horns equally good?
Is a back chamber necessary?
Dipole:
From the SL school:
- Two SS/ Usher/ Excel mids (two = lobing): 94 dB
- Or one (-6 dB, no lobing Problems): 88 dB
Towards horn sensitivity:
- PHL 3451: 100 dB
What's best?
But as you know, most of the music is in the mids, and the need for a massive horn doesn’t apply over the mids.
Driver budget say max $US 300 per side.
Over 300 Hz, room modes are less of an issue, though still effect sound quality
And good off axis response is *highly desirable.
So to start the discissions, some contenders from both ‘corners’:
Horn:
Not my area, though maybe will be:
PHL/ Audax Pro 170/ Fostex??/ B&C 6PEV13 or with Faraday ring B&C 8PE21: dB = ??
I hear conical horns are best. Are pyramidical horns equally good?
Is a back chamber necessary?
Dipole:
From the SL school:
- Two SS/ Usher/ Excel mids (two = lobing): 94 dB
- Or one (-6 dB, no lobing Problems): 88 dB
Towards horn sensitivity:
- PHL 3451: 100 dB
What's best?
A large horn <b>is</b> necessary to cover 300hz and up - a 150hz flair rate horn would be a good start. This is because horns store a lot of energy at their low end, at least in limited measurements I have taken (working on taking more, but that means I have to build more horns). With a 500hz tractrix horn, I had to go an octave or more above the flair frequency to get clean output.
size & smoothness
Hi John
Good point - how big might a 150hz flair rate horn be?
Hi Miguel
The B&C 6PEV13 spec gives 99 dB. What approx dB do you think it’s giving in your pyramidical conical horn?
I note the curves are unsmoothed, but I might have hoped for more smoothness. Do you think that’s more driver or specific horn configuration?
What do you not like about rear chambers?
> sure deserves further investigation
What will you change?
Driver wise:
What’s the best up to $US 300/ driver
Any Fostex contenders?
Regards
Richard
Hi John
Good point - how big might a 150hz flair rate horn be?
Hi Miguel
The B&C 6PEV13 spec gives 99 dB. What approx dB do you think it’s giving in your pyramidical conical horn?
I note the curves are unsmoothed, but I might have hoped for more smoothness. Do you think that’s more driver or specific horn configuration?
What do you not like about rear chambers?
> sure deserves further investigation
What will you change?
Driver wise:
What’s the best up to $US 300/ driver
Any Fostex contenders?
Regards
Richard
I tried PR170M0 on OB and liked it
Hi Rick57,
One speaker project I put together recently uses one Audax PR170M0 on a 3'-wide OB on each side to covery 300Hz to 8KHz, and this system sounds quite good to me. I also have a pair of JBL CS3115 speakers that have horn-loaded 8" drivers covering 400Hz-1600Hz. They both sound great, but I like the overall presentation of the Audax system better. The Audax on OB is not as efficient as the horn-loaded JBL midrange, but 98dB is not too bad.
Kurt
Hi Rick57,
One speaker project I put together recently uses one Audax PR170M0 on a 3'-wide OB on each side to covery 300Hz to 8KHz, and this system sounds quite good to me. I also have a pair of JBL CS3115 speakers that have horn-loaded 8" drivers covering 400Hz-1600Hz. They both sound great, but I like the overall presentation of the Audax system better. The Audax on OB is not as efficient as the horn-loaded JBL midrange, but 98dB is not too bad.
Kurt
I see that many horn ‘mids’, at least those listed at http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-6.php3
Do not go below 500 or 1000 Hz.
Hi Kurt
That comparison is interesting. JBL's being reasonavbly good, though I don't know that model; what was the horn profile?
There’s a trade off in most things, and I don’t yet know what the trade off with horns may be for the higher efficiency.
As you say, 98dB is not too bad; the PHL 3451 (although 10 inch) has similar db & FR specs.
Richard
Do not go below 500 or 1000 Hz.
Hi Kurt
That comparison is interesting. JBL's being reasonavbly good, though I don't know that model; what was the horn profile?
There’s a trade off in most things, and I don’t yet know what the trade off with horns may be for the higher efficiency.
As you say, 98dB is not too bad; the PHL 3451 (although 10 inch) has similar db & FR specs.
Richard
JBL CS3115
Hi Richard,
The CS3115 is nearly identical to the VS3115 model shown here:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/venue/vs3115.pdf
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Venue Series/VS3115-WH.pdf
The midrange horn looks like a rectangular conical horn to me.
Kurt
Hi Richard,
The CS3115 is nearly identical to the VS3115 model shown here:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/venue/vs3115.pdf
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Venue Series/VS3115-WH.pdf
The midrange horn looks like a rectangular conical horn to me.
Kurt
A 150hz horn is big. Here is a 150hz tractrix I built a long time ago:
A Le Cleac'h flair with a rollback at the mouth would be even bigger. You can find calculators or equations online to calculate the exact size.
Most pro-sound response ratings (especially for compression drivers) are not necessarily indicative of what you can do for hi-fi usage. You will typically be using 1/10 to 1/100 the power, different horns, and so the response range you can get is different.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A Le Cleac'h flair with a rollback at the mouth would be even bigger. You can find calculators or equations online to calculate the exact size.
Most pro-sound response ratings (especially for compression drivers) are not necessarily indicative of what you can do for hi-fi usage. You will typically be using 1/10 to 1/100 the power, different horns, and so the response range you can get is different.
Hi Kurt
Looking at the JBL PDF, I didn’t realise quite how directional horns were, or how small purpose built morns mids were.
When you said “I like the overall presentation of the Audax system better”, could you elaborate – in what respect?
Hi John
To me, that 150 Hz horn doesn’t look too big. (My other half may see things differently). On the aesthetic side, the colour isn’t exactly low key – is that Coca Cola Red?
How might a conventional driver with the right parameters for horn loading (eg B&C, PHL) compare with a compression driver (cd)?
I assume a cd is more efficient – any other differences?
Thanks
Looking at the JBL PDF, I didn’t realise quite how directional horns were, or how small purpose built morns mids were.
When you said “I like the overall presentation of the Audax system better”, could you elaborate – in what respect?
Hi John
To me, that 150 Hz horn doesn’t look too big. (My other half may see things differently). On the aesthetic side, the colour isn’t exactly low key – is that Coca Cola Red?
How might a conventional driver with the right parameters for horn loading (eg B&C, PHL) compare with a compression driver (cd)?
I assume a cd is more efficient – any other differences?
Thanks
Horns vs OB
I'll chime in, too. I think either system can sound very good, but there are two different approaches here, naturally.
The OB school suggests a wide range high efficiency (generally) mid driver covering the vast majority of the spectrum with supplemental drivers added top and bottom for the extremes.
This is an ideal place to start in diy due to the simplicity of crossovers and enclosures.
Due to the nature of the beast, a horn midrange is not so broad in its coverage, and also due to its limited bandwidth (relative to full or wide range mids) needs to be matched well with other drivers because the crossovers fall into the more audible portions of our hearing.
The result, however, can be well worth the additional complexity.
Tim
I'll chime in, too. I think either system can sound very good, but there are two different approaches here, naturally.
The OB school suggests a wide range high efficiency (generally) mid driver covering the vast majority of the spectrum with supplemental drivers added top and bottom for the extremes.
This is an ideal place to start in diy due to the simplicity of crossovers and enclosures.
Due to the nature of the beast, a horn midrange is not so broad in its coverage, and also due to its limited bandwidth (relative to full or wide range mids) needs to be matched well with other drivers because the crossovers fall into the more audible portions of our hearing.
The result, however, can be well worth the additional complexity.
Tim
Which compression driver? They're all different and sound different on different flares.rick57 said:
I don't know of a compression driver that will do an honest 250Hz except maybe the Community M4 and I have no idea how that would sound in a domestic environment. It'll also be way outside your budget.
At your current level of knowledge and experience, either be prepared to do a lot of research and experimental designs for horns (or copy others), or build an OB.
Hi Brett
So is the only common characteristic of a compression driver high dB/ w?
If I say from *350 Hz, maybe only to 1200 Hz, and less than $US c. 350, does that open *any horn driver options?
If no, it would be back to PHL on OB.
I thought the horn fans could suggest some options. Is price the issue?
Richard
So is the only common characteristic of a compression driver high dB/ w?
If I say from *350 Hz, maybe only to 1200 Hz, and less than $US c. 350, does that open *any horn driver options?
If no, it would be back to PHL on OB.
I thought the horn fans could suggest some options. Is price the issue?
Richard
I've done 90hz with a JBL 375 with phenolic diaphragm (made for Dukane). This was a on a 75hz exponential horn about 7 feet long, 26" x 26" mouth. A 2482 is basically the same, and the more recent 2485 is also about the same but ceramic. You can pick these up for as little as $100 on ebay sometimes (that's what I got mine for). 2482's are usually $200 each or more. You could probably do the same with other drivers - remember, the WE555 was a 2" voice coil driver and got below 100hz on a 15A horn (which is really huge).
Horns or o/b,
why not both ? in the front room of our new house we have the space for o/b's and horns. I have always been a great fan of horns until recently when i used 4audax PR170MO per baffle. I hate to say this but, the audax on the o/b show how confused and coloured the sound from horns can be. However, the horns come into their own for very delicate music and the larger spaces.
we now have a major quandary
which is better and which do we prefer
If any of you are ever in Karratha W.A come and have a listen.
As soon as i can get my camera going i'll post some pictures of the setup.
My partner "pinkbits' has just bought some tweeters from dave "planet ten". I wish i had never introduced her to the joys of diy, now we will have our own NOYZWAR
why not both ? in the front room of our new house we have the space for o/b's and horns. I have always been a great fan of horns until recently when i used 4audax PR170MO per baffle. I hate to say this but, the audax on the o/b show how confused and coloured the sound from horns can be. However, the horns come into their own for very delicate music and the larger spaces.
we now have a major quandary
which is better and which do we prefer If any of you are ever in Karratha W.A come and have a listen.
As soon as i can get my camera going i'll post some pictures of the setup.
My partner "pinkbits' has just bought some tweeters from dave "planet ten". I wish i had never introduced her to the joys of diy, now we will have our own NOYZWAR
2482 at low XO
Hi Jeff,
I don't want to **** on your fireworks, but the 2482 is diabolical when crossed at low freq. These horrors have phenolic dias and have an awful bark below 600. we used these for many years and found the best xo to be around 800.
If they are retrofitted with the Ti dias they can sound gorgeous although the xo point should still be above 600.
Hi Jeff,
I don't want to **** on your fireworks, but the 2482 is diabolical when crossed at low freq. These horrors have phenolic dias and have an awful bark below 600. we used these for many years and found the best xo to be around 800.
If they are retrofitted with the Ti dias they can sound gorgeous although the xo point should still be above 600.
Jeff
Thanks for your kind offer; what FR & dB might I expect?
Brett
If I say from 350 Hz to 1200 Hz, and < $US 350 *other than CD*, what good horn driver options does that open?
John
7 feet is getting a bit much, the longest (deepest) I’d want is say 3.5 feet
exurbia
Sounds like war is good in sunny Karratha.
Do you suggest an alternative to the 2482?
Thanks for your kind offer; what FR & dB might I expect?
Brett
If I say from 350 Hz to 1200 Hz, and < $US 350 *other than CD*, what good horn driver options does that open?
John
7 feet is getting a bit much, the longest (deepest) I’d want is say 3.5 feet
exurbia
Sounds like war is good in sunny Karratha.
Do you suggest an alternative to the 2482?
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