I think that will work fine.
I checked the specs and it is a little light for the job, but it's what you have right now and there is no reason you can't grow into a bigger system at some date in the future when you want.
The sub has:
°*100 watt subwoofer amplifier w/ 10" woofer
°*Tuned port cabinet design for extended low frequency reproduction
°*Adds impact and realism to any audio/video presentation
°*Variable active crossover 40-180 Hz
Hi,
Okay, in that case the first order of business is to make sure your two main speakers can go low enough to give a satisfying low end on their own with most music.
If you do not do that (e.g. do it doug20's way) you MUST use an active crossover to keep really low stuff out of your mains speakers (with 15" woofers) and instead hope that the single 10" driver in your sub does all the bass.
The alternative is to make the mains go low, even if the bass more lean than fat and to use the speaker level feeds your sub has to drive it from the mains (the thing doug20 so violently objects to as foolishness) if needed. You can still also run a line level LFE and Sub mix feed from your AV Amp to Sub to get some extra punch and boom for explosions etc...
In that case your Sub and the two mainspeakers share the load in the bass. It can be a little tricky to get set up right, but it works very well.
I used to use a Visaton 10" active subwoofer together with my 15" Tannoy Coaxials, simply because the Tannoys went down only into the lower 30's, so I used this little box just to add a bit extension at the very bottom. Played very loud the visaton Sub would compress heavily (the manufacturer had sensibly fitted a limiter), but it die not matter that much as the main speakers did not compress.
So, yes, there are ways of doing this.
But the key is to get the main speakers to do as much as they can.
Ciao T
Okay, in that case the first order of business is to make sure your two main speakers can go low enough to give a satisfying low end on their own with most music.
If you do not do that (e.g. do it doug20's way) you MUST use an active crossover to keep really low stuff out of your mains speakers (with 15" woofers) and instead hope that the single 10" driver in your sub does all the bass.
The alternative is to make the mains go low, even if the bass more lean than fat and to use the speaker level feeds your sub has to drive it from the mains (the thing doug20 so violently objects to as foolishness) if needed. You can still also run a line level LFE and Sub mix feed from your AV Amp to Sub to get some extra punch and boom for explosions etc...
In that case your Sub and the two mainspeakers share the load in the bass. It can be a little tricky to get set up right, but it works very well.
I used to use a Visaton 10" active subwoofer together with my 15" Tannoy Coaxials, simply because the Tannoys went down only into the lower 30's, so I used this little box just to add a bit extension at the very bottom. Played very loud the visaton Sub would compress heavily (the manufacturer had sensibly fitted a limiter), but it die not matter that much as the main speakers did not compress.
So, yes, there are ways of doing this.
But the key is to get the main speakers to do as much as they can.
Ciao T
Yes, I think trying to get the main speakers to go as low as they can while being safe is fine by me.
If by doing that we are compromising the integrity of the speakers too much then no.
As you said earlier, the frequencies under 60Hz are pretty much Big organs and bass guitars, something I rarely listen to so I would think ( I may be wrong ) that the only time I will be using frequencies under that will be in movie explosions and spacecrafts, where maybe the sub should be enough since I will not have the system cranked up that much.
Leo
Working pretty well and doing it right are too different things.
The OP does not even have a sub out though so this discussion is pointless
Hi,
Unless you try to use it as a major PA system I doubt in your room you will run into big trouble. I use much less efficient speakers and a fairly low powered amp in a larger size room.
Actually, I said "below 40Hz"... But especially stuff like Trance/Techno/Dancefloor can have vicious artificial synth bass...
You may be right. So I would probably recommend the EBS tuning. This will get you down to the lowest bass note in "good old rock'n'roll".
Ciao T
Unless you try to use it as a major PA system I doubt in your room you will run into big trouble. I use much less efficient speakers and a fairly low powered amp in a larger size room.
Actually, I said "below 40Hz"... But especially stuff like Trance/Techno/Dancefloor can have vicious artificial synth bass...
You may be right. So I would probably recommend the EBS tuning. This will get you down to the lowest bass note in "good old rock'n'roll".
Ciao T
FYI - Here is the SPL plot for 150 liter box tuned to 40 Hz radiating into 2∏ space:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sorry I was lazy and didnt go back to read it. I didnt know Trance or techno could have that low frequencies. then again I have never measured any frequencies so I was guessing.
Leo
There is a lot of content from a lot of music that goes down below 40Hz. Any drum or bass guiter can easily do that, Techno and trance will go below 30Hz somtimes too!! Explosions in movies is all about the < 30Hz content. You won't have that until you have a real subwoofer system ( I have 27 liters of displacement in one room and 18 in another
)You are handcuffing yourself with all this 2.0 discussion.
You either need to build full range speakers (down to 30Hz) or you need to have a sub and build main speakers down to 50 or 60Hz.
Everything else is just a compromise.
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And now... 4∏ space:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi,
4PI is free space. In other words, the speaker is suspended high up in the air, higher above the ground than the longest wavelength radiated.
It is one of these things that seem to make to sense, but are not relevant outside acoustically large rooms and large systems (e.g. PA Systems).
2PI is halve space, meaning the speaker is mounted into an infinite size wall.
In a normal room the woofer is at worst 60cm above the floor and at the worst a meter or two from rear walls.
Two meters are equal to a 170Hz wavelength. Normally, walls within quarter wavelength of the frequency may be considered to be part of the "infinite" baffle.
In normal rooms, at LF most speakers radiate not into 4PI or 2PI conditions, but into halve to quarter PI spaces. This means low frequencies are boosted substantially inside a room, over free/halve space (eg PA Systems).
Commenting on the curves shown, Loren42, can you add the following network to the Driver:
8.2 Ohm in series with 10uF as impedance compensation, plus 3.3mH series inductor
Also, can you show a plot for 1/8th space (1/2PI)?
These two combined would show what I am proposing to use, when placed into a room designed according to the IEC recommendations referenced earlier.
As it stands now all the plots need considerable interpretation to be able to relate them to the real world happenings.
Ciao T
4PI is free space. In other words, the speaker is suspended high up in the air, higher above the ground than the longest wavelength radiated.
It is one of these things that seem to make to sense, but are not relevant outside acoustically large rooms and large systems (e.g. PA Systems).
2PI is halve space, meaning the speaker is mounted into an infinite size wall.
In a normal room the woofer is at worst 60cm above the floor and at the worst a meter or two from rear walls.
Two meters are equal to a 170Hz wavelength. Normally, walls within quarter wavelength of the frequency may be considered to be part of the "infinite" baffle.
In normal rooms, at LF most speakers radiate not into 4PI or 2PI conditions, but into halve to quarter PI spaces. This means low frequencies are boosted substantially inside a room, over free/halve space (eg PA Systems).
Commenting on the curves shown, Loren42, can you add the following network to the Driver:
8.2 Ohm in series with 10uF as impedance compensation, plus 3.3mH series inductor
Also, can you show a plot for 1/8th space (1/2PI)?
These two combined would show what I am proposing to use, when placed into a room designed according to the IEC recommendations referenced earlier.
As it stands now all the plots need considerable interpretation to be able to relate them to the real world happenings.
Ciao T
2∏ is when the speaker radiates on an infinite baffle. It would be like mounting the speaker cabinet flush into one of your walls.
4∏ is when the driver is radiating into open space from its own speaker cabinet. It is also known as Baffle Step where the radiation of sound transitions from 4∏ to 2∏ space.
Imagine suspending the cabinet outside 50 feet off the ground (as in an anechoic chamber). Sound radiates forward, but the lowest frequencies (below 600 Hz) radiate not only forward, but bend and extend around the cabinet.
This is the difference between sound radiating directly at you (beaming) and when it is distributed more evenly in all directions. Obviously, the overall power level is the same, but since half of it is radiating backwards you don't hear it. This causes a theoretical 6 dB loss in SPL for the listener.
However, that is theoretical. Nobody listens to their speakers suspended 50' in the air. The real situation is that the sound that goes backwards hits walls and things in the room and is reflected back to the listener. The real result is probably only a 3 dB loss in bass.
Then there is room gain. Many rooms (not all) artificially boost some of the bass frequencies.
You may have seen the thread 'Loudspeakers and room as a system' going on and on. In a nutshell, loudspeakers and rooms work together. However, my preference is to work on getting the loudspeaker to play flat, then work on the room to get it the best you can make it sound, then EQ what you can't. So I don't play too much attention to any particular room when I design a loudspeaker at first, then try to tame the room. I am sure someone here will want to spank me for that.
Now I probably told you too much. ;-)
I see ThorstenL did a good synopses of the question. When you design a loudspeaker you really are designing for something in the middle of these two spaces and calling that flat. Many times manufactures just ignore 4∏ space.
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Hi,
Including your system... And mine...
And the OP's system will be compromise too.
Perfection is not a magisteria which men (yet?*) deals.
Compromises are the best we manage. And one Mans Meatloaf is anothers Steak Tartare, one Mans "Gosh is she ever a Fox" is another Mans "If she was the last woman on earth and I the last man, I'd rather have Rosy Palm and her five friends.".
Ciao T
*) I once wrote a piece called 13 biblical questions - it answers why I am putting the "yet?".
Including your system...
And mine... And the OP's system will be compromise too.
Perfection is not a magisteria which men (yet?*) deals.
Compromises are the best we manage. And one Mans Meatloaf is anothers Steak Tartare, one Mans "Gosh is she ever a Fox" is another Mans "If she was the last woman on earth and I the last man, I'd rather have Rosy Palm and her five friends.".
Ciao T
*) I once wrote a piece called 13 biblical questions - it answers why I am putting the "yet?".
Hi Loren,
Nah, I'm not into that.
My view as capsule is like this:
1) If you know that your speaker is going to play in rooms designing it to be flat in free space creates problems.
2) If you create a problem, you will have to fix it.
3) It is smarter to avoid foreseeable problems, then to fix them later.
So, I do not only ignore 4PI but even 2PI. Neither are truly relevant in normal rooms. As said, few speakers have their bass drivers more than 60cm from the nearest surface (usually floor, or with WMTMW towers floor/ceiling instead).
That means that speakers in normal rooms with solid floors) look at a 2PI load below around 150hz. Below 75Hz we tend to get 1Pi (quarter space) and by 30Hz we have 1/4 PI quite reliably. At least in my living room (all solid walls - no sheet-rock, double windows with double-glazing each [mainly to cut noise]).
Modern active studio monitors usually include position switches to correct the room load. My commercial speakers use mechanical means to allow a similar adjustment in the midbass.
Ciao T
However, my preference is to work on getting the loudspeaker to play flat, then work on the room to get it the best you can make it sound, then EQ what you can't. So I don't play too much attention to any particular room when I design a loudspeaker at first, then try to tame the room. I am sure someone here will want to spank me for that.
Nah, I'm not into that.
My view as capsule is like this:
1) If you know that your speaker is going to play in rooms designing it to be flat in free space creates problems.
2) If you create a problem, you will have to fix it.
3) It is smarter to avoid foreseeable problems, then to fix them later.
So, I do not only ignore 4PI but even 2PI. Neither are truly relevant in normal rooms. As said, few speakers have their bass drivers more than 60cm from the nearest surface (usually floor, or with WMTMW towers floor/ceiling instead).
That means that speakers in normal rooms with solid floors) look at a 2PI load below around 150hz. Below 75Hz we tend to get 1Pi (quarter space) and by 30Hz we have 1/4 PI quite reliably. At least in my living room (all solid walls - no sheet-rock, double windows with double-glazing each [mainly to cut noise]).
Modern active studio monitors usually include position switches to correct the room load. My commercial speakers use mechanical means to allow a similar adjustment in the midbass.
Ciao T
My speaker room...
Here is a simple drawing of the room where I have the speakers.
The base of the woofers will be around 6" or 15 cm from the floor and they will be around 16" to 20" or 40 to 50 cm from the rear walls. As I said, the room has 15 feet wide by 30 feet long with the couch being in the middle.
I dont know if the fact that the rear walls have that angle will cause much problem?
Leo
Here is a simple drawing of the room where I have the speakers.
The base of the woofers will be around 6" or 15 cm from the floor and they will be around 16" to 20" or 40 to 50 cm from the rear walls. As I said, the room has 15 feet wide by 30 feet long with the couch being in the middle.
I dont know if the fact that the rear walls have that angle will cause much problem?
Leo
Speakers should be designed flat because the in room response should have a downward tilt to it. The Room gain creates this proper tilt.
I will find the Harman link explaining this if you do not understand it. The did extensive listening tests with many groups and the conclusions are obvious.
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Here is what Sean Olive has written...
Harman International makes some of the best speakers based on measurements and based on sound. They do extensive proper listening tests and they measure way beyond what others could remotely do. Their speakers are designed with a great power response and they utilize the room gain properly.
So this build should be designed with a great power response, that starts with a flat on axis response but it does not end there. Placing the well designed speakers in a room adding the room gain will give the speakers the most likeable curve.
The OP will be happier with this then other suggestions.
Harman International makes some of the best speakers based on measurements and based on sound. They do extensive proper listening tests and they measure way beyond what others could remotely do. Their speakers are designed with a great power response and they utilize the room gain properly.
So this build should be designed with a great power response, that starts with a flat on axis response but it does not end there. Placing the well designed speakers in a room adding the room gain will give the speakers the most likeable curve.
The OP will be happier with this then other suggestions.
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You will have standing wave issues with the couch in the middle of the room.
If its 30 feet long then you either place the couch at 10 feet or 20 feet....15 feet is bad acoustically speaking.
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