A 1200 Hz crossover frequency is worth trying to design a 2-way with 12 inch bass-mid.
The XT1086 datasheet suggests it is usable from 1200 Hz up:
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1086.PDF
The XT1086 datasheet suggests it is usable from 1200 Hz up:
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1086.PDF
Sounds interesting.
At this moment i am awaiting arrival of the 1 inch nsd1095n drivers.
The woofers are commonly on stock so i can choose these at the last moment.
The HF drivers needed to be produced (new batch), and this would be done in januari so they will be ready soon i hope.
Next i will be asking the supplier also to set me up with a crossover suggestion.
Think it is going to be a sealed enclosure with the 12inch woofer (maybe 12W500 / 12W700 or 12NMB420 (neo) ) and the compression tweeter.
This on top of a Linkwitz Transform driven double subwoofer sealed enclosure with Hypex model. Size of the woofers in this enclosure still to be determined.
Because of this thread my building plans have changed. New ideas and inspiration!
So i will be working on a new enclosure design. And of course as soon as this is done i will post it here. Also there will be a new thread with a building report.
Meanwhile hoping there will be more posts and maybe also a crossover suggestion at 1.2 or 1.6 Khz ? The top cabinet part should be like approx. the size as on Charles his photo (XT1086 horn loaded cabinet) in Post # 18
Help and suggestion is welcome...
At this moment i am awaiting arrival of the 1 inch nsd1095n drivers.
The woofers are commonly on stock so i can choose these at the last moment.
The HF drivers needed to be produced (new batch), and this would be done in januari so they will be ready soon i hope.
Next i will be asking the supplier also to set me up with a crossover suggestion.
Think it is going to be a sealed enclosure with the 12inch woofer (maybe 12W500 / 12W700 or 12NMB420 (neo) ) and the compression tweeter.
This on top of a Linkwitz Transform driven double subwoofer sealed enclosure with Hypex model. Size of the woofers in this enclosure still to be determined.
Because of this thread my building plans have changed. New ideas and inspiration!
So i will be working on a new enclosure design. And of course as soon as this is done i will post it here. Also there will be a new thread with a building report.
Meanwhile hoping there will be more posts and maybe also a crossover suggestion at 1.2 or 1.6 Khz ? The top cabinet part should be like approx. the size as on Charles his photo (XT1086 horn loaded cabinet) in Post # 18
Help and suggestion is welcome...
It's a trade-off.
I'm using the 1095 driver with a CD Eminence H290 horn in a 3 way setup after reading a lot of positive posts about the 1095. I had Altec 902's before this which have a lot of respect. The 18 sound drivers are clear, detailed, and go higher for sure. Vintage is wonderful, the 1095's great.
I'm running them crossed at 1600 as per recommendation. Running them at 1200 would mean you shouldn't use what they are capable of volume wise if I understand this right. That's the trade-off.
I'd rather be able to use them when I feel the urge.
Grant.
I'm using the 1095 driver with a CD Eminence H290 horn in a 3 way setup after reading a lot of positive posts about the 1095. I had Altec 902's before this which have a lot of respect. The 18 sound drivers are clear, detailed, and go higher for sure. Vintage is wonderful, the 1095's great.
I'm running them crossed at 1600 as per recommendation. Running them at 1200 would mean you shouldn't use what they are capable of volume wise if I understand this right. That's the trade-off.
I'd rather be able to use them when I feel the urge.
Grant.
MAYBE....Cut cardboard to match three cabinet FOOTPRINT options. Test room layouts.
Exterior: W=18" x D=22" x H=46" ~ 6cu ft for 18" sealed woofers
Exterior: W=17" x D=20" x H=46" ~ 5cu ft for 18" sealed woofers
Exterior: W=16" x D=18" x H=46" ~ 4cu ft for 12" sealed woofers
Why does the cabinet need to be so BIG?
1) Charle's cabinet uses a 10" midbass, so a cabinet for a 12" midbass will be at least 2" wider.
2) Charle's' cabinet has high diffraction sharp edges on all sides. Reducing nasty diffraction requires either radius edges or chamfered (beveled) edges, which increases the width of the cabinet.
3) Charle's cabinet butts the XT1086 horn to the top sharp-edge board. Since a 1600Hz wavelength is 8.5", a taller cabinet with the XT1086 1"-2" below the top PLUS a radius top edge can have smoother, more uniform treble directivity through the crossover's 1st octave.. i.e. the midbass does not have to compensate for the -1600Hz drop at the cabinet's top edge.
4) Charle's cabinet appears to use a 0.75" walls. My sketch, like the BMF-1, assumes 0.75" exterior Baltic Birch glued to interior 0.75" MDF for big-box strength and some vibration control from different mass densities, which requires a 1.5" wider cabinet.
5) It is common to put the center of the horn at ~ 40" - 42" ear level, creating a 46" - 48" tall horn cabinet.
6) 1600Hz Xover looks best
Attachments
You're welcome!
Sub system design, implementation: INNOVATION | Harman
http://www.harman.com/sites/default...08:20/files/AES_Preprint_8748_color_plots.zip
http://www.harman.com/sites/default...015 - 06:18/files/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt1.pdf
http://www.harman.com/sites/default...015 - 06:20/files/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2.pdf
http://www.harman.com/sites/default...015 - 06:25/files/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf
Absolutely, though <80 Hz is the norm, so that it doesn't have to be quite as close to the mains.
GM
To make things clear: This cabinet is not finished yet ! The picture has been taken before even the reflex port had been routed. The whole thing will be run as two-way (i.e. no sub)and I don't want to cross over in the 6" woofer plus dome territory. Although I wouldn't mind going a little higher if necessary. It would even make the intended group-delay equalisation a little easier.
The 10" shown is a real woofer. It is not a PA low-mid but a crossbreed between PA and HiFi. These things are not easily obtained anymore nowadays but were available in abundance during the eighties when fostex, coral etc made lots of drivers like that. That's one of the reasons for the size, the other reason is the compartment on the backside for the electronics.
I know I could countersink the 1086 also but that was too much of a hassle to me. The cabinet edges will also get a small roundover but only for aestetics, they will not have a lot of effect acoustically. The board thickness is around 0.75" the baffle thickness is slightly below 1". Vibration control will be done by the use of Hawaphon and felt.
My targets were full range capability (i.e. cutoff below 40 Hz), very low crossover-induced group delay distortion and dynamics (it will not go as loud as a box with PA drivers because of the efficiency in the low ninties and a nominal woofer power handling of 120 Watts, but now you can see why I can probably cross the HF driver lower than 1200 Hz).
Regards
Charles
BTW: This one is what inspired me, it does also use this horn with an xover frequency of 1200 Hz:
— STRAUSS-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM
I heard them as rears and central in the following surround setup and they were stunning:
— STRAUSS-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM
The 10" shown is a real woofer. It is not a PA low-mid but a crossbreed between PA and HiFi. These things are not easily obtained anymore nowadays but were available in abundance during the eighties when fostex, coral etc made lots of drivers like that. That's one of the reasons for the size, the other reason is the compartment on the backside for the electronics.
I know I could countersink the 1086 also but that was too much of a hassle to me. The cabinet edges will also get a small roundover but only for aestetics, they will not have a lot of effect acoustically. The board thickness is around 0.75" the baffle thickness is slightly below 1". Vibration control will be done by the use of Hawaphon and felt.
My targets were full range capability (i.e. cutoff below 40 Hz), very low crossover-induced group delay distortion and dynamics (it will not go as loud as a box with PA drivers because of the efficiency in the low ninties and a nominal woofer power handling of 120 Watts, but now you can see why I can probably cross the HF driver lower than 1200 Hz).
Regards
Charles
BTW: This one is what inspired me, it does also use this horn with an xover frequency of 1200 Hz:
— STRAUSS-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM
I heard them as rears and central in the following surround setup and they were stunning:
— STRAUSS-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM
I looked it up in your post #10:
Quote;
4) The 18LW1400 models well for equalized deep bass, but requires more power than the Faital 18FH500. The 18LW1400 looks like a very good woofer choice with a solid state amp. The 18LW1400 is 8.5" deep, so two side-side woofers require a 19" wide cabinet for a perfect fit.
So i guess 2 inch between magnets should be enough?
I'm asking to see if 2x 15" woofers would be an option.
I already cut a paper floorplan to measure the size. It is going
to be too big for 18 inch. I cannot open a door that is near to the speaker.
So it's going to be 12 inch (or maybe 15) woofers i guess. Inner cabinet size than
can be a bit smaller. Try to narrow the widt down to 15"
As a second option i was wondering (taking Sd vs. cone diameter into mind)
would it be a lot of different if the bass would be produced by 2x 12" woofers in the side or with one 15" woofer in the front baffle? I mean not from calculation but from hearing and experiencing?
Btw;
I'll take in acount your horn placement suggestion.
Thanks.
Quote;
4) The 18LW1400 models well for equalized deep bass, but requires more power than the Faital 18FH500. The 18LW1400 looks like a very good woofer choice with a solid state amp. The 18LW1400 is 8.5" deep, so two side-side woofers require a 19" wide cabinet for a perfect fit.
So i guess 2 inch between magnets should be enough?
I'm asking to see if 2x 15" woofers would be an option.
I already cut a paper floorplan to measure the size. It is going
to be too big for 18 inch. I cannot open a door that is near to the speaker.
So it's going to be 12 inch (or maybe 15) woofers i guess. Inner cabinet size than
can be a bit smaller. Try to narrow the widt down to 15"
As a second option i was wondering (taking Sd vs. cone diameter into mind)
would it be a lot of different if the bass would be produced by 2x 12" woofers in the side or with one 15" woofer in the front baffle? I mean not from calculation but from hearing and experiencing?
Btw;
I'll take in acount your horn placement suggestion.
Thanks.
For your modest size room, two side-side 12" can provide deep bass with the help of equalization(DSP or Linkwitz Transform) and a high power amp. With smaller woofers, you accept REALITY = reduced dynamics, and lower efficiency. "Reality" always beats the "I have a Dream" speech.
I could not find a 12" with good woofer T/S parameters in the standard 18Sound Catalog.
SBacoustics woofers have low inductance motors for clean, extended bass. Can you get good prices on SB?
--The SBacoustics 12” SB34NRXL75-8 models well with two in a 3cuft sealed volume.
The 12NMB420 still looks like the best 18Sound midbass for the 1600Hz Xover favored by the NSD1095N. The 12NL9300, with its heavier ribbed cone is probably better suited for a different horn and compression driver providing a 1300Hz Xover point. I have not heard these speakers, so local expert advice is important.
Probably time for a more accurate CAD drawing to get closer to exact sizes.
The internal volume available for the woofers is needed for equalization simulation.
--3cuft looks good for two sealed 12" SB woofers.
--Cabinet edge diffraction control is important, so explore cabinet shops which can put a large radius(1.5" - 3") on the front baffle edges.
==========
WORTH SIMULATION:
Width ~ 16" for 12" midbass with proper cabinent construction 12NMB420
Depth ~ 16" for two 12" woofers with >3cuft SB34NRXL75-8
Height 46" for a 42" ear height on XT1086 + NSD1095N
==========
POSTED:
--Bragging data for TiN diaphragms $$
--Bragging Tech behind side-side woofers $$
--Quick XSim LR4/LR4 crossover of the XT1086+NSD1095N to the 12 NMB420
----FRD and ZMD came from 18Sound Plots.
---"SPL bump" from 1K-2KHz from sum of 12NMB420 beaming plus the start of 1600Hz XT1086 peaking...wait for real measurements
I could not find a 12" with good woofer T/S parameters in the standard 18Sound Catalog.
SBacoustics woofers have low inductance motors for clean, extended bass. Can you get good prices on SB?
--The SBacoustics 12” SB34NRXL75-8 models well with two in a 3cuft sealed volume.
The 12NMB420 still looks like the best 18Sound midbass for the 1600Hz Xover favored by the NSD1095N. The 12NL9300, with its heavier ribbed cone is probably better suited for a different horn and compression driver providing a 1300Hz Xover point. I have not heard these speakers, so local expert advice is important.
Probably time for a more accurate CAD drawing to get closer to exact sizes.
The internal volume available for the woofers is needed for equalization simulation.
--3cuft looks good for two sealed 12" SB woofers.
--Cabinet edge diffraction control is important, so explore cabinet shops which can put a large radius(1.5" - 3") on the front baffle edges.
==========
WORTH SIMULATION:
Width ~ 16" for 12" midbass with proper cabinent construction 12NMB420
Depth ~ 16" for two 12" woofers with >3cuft SB34NRXL75-8
Height 46" for a 42" ear height on XT1086 + NSD1095N
==========
POSTED:
--Bragging data for TiN diaphragms $$
--Bragging Tech behind side-side woofers $$
--Quick XSim LR4/LR4 crossover of the XT1086+NSD1095N to the 12 NMB420
----FRD and ZMD came from 18Sound Plots.
---"SPL bump" from 1K-2KHz from sum of 12NMB420 beaming plus the start of 1600Hz XT1086 peaking...wait for real measurements
Attachments
Looks like a well designed monitor. The XT1086 horn has the rare 27-degree mouth that exactly matches the 18Sound 1" compression drivers.
I've noticed that some engineers use the horn position on the cabinet baffle to improve the crossover performance, or to tweek the polar pattern for a smoother controlled directivity function.
Measure...Design...Measure...Design....Measure...
Attachments
At this moment i am designing the cabinet.
The whole speaker will be a sealed enclosure.
It will be build up with the nsd1095n & 12NMB420.
Hypex AS2.100 module.
Woofers for sub, still not specified. But 12" for sure.
The local store where i buy my supplies will be helping,
making and measuring the crossover for this speakerplan.
At this moment still awaiting arrival of the HF drivers.... :-(
I will be posting a new thread in which the speaker/cabinet building
and the final product will be displayed.
Thanks a lot for your input. Hope you'll enjoy the process of finishing the
speaker (in the nearby future!)...
Greetings!
The whole speaker will be a sealed enclosure.
It will be build up with the nsd1095n & 12NMB420.
Hypex AS2.100 module.
Woofers for sub, still not specified. But 12" for sure.
The local store where i buy my supplies will be helping,
making and measuring the crossover for this speakerplan.
At this moment still awaiting arrival of the HF drivers.... :-(
I will be posting a new thread in which the speaker/cabinet building
and the final product will be displayed.
Thanks a lot for your input. Hope you'll enjoy the process of finishing the
speaker (in the nearby future!)...
Greetings!
For those who are interested in the performance of the Faital HF10AK on the XT1086 horn I made an informal measurement tonight. The response shown is on-axis. Driver laying on the floor, horn facing upwards (without any baffle). Measuring distance was 70 cm.
For the price of this combination I would say that it measures quite well. There is nothing that couldn't be EQed with reasonable effort. And I think a crossover point around 1300 Hz would also be possible with this combination for loud home listening levels.
Regards
Charles
For the price of this combination I would say that it measures quite well. There is nothing that couldn't be EQed with reasonable effort. And I think a crossover point around 1300 Hz would also be possible with this combination for loud home listening levels.
Regards
Charles
Attachments
I bought the HD1050 and the 12NLW9300 from 18sound in the hope to build something better than my Klipsch Forte I.
The difficulty was of course the crossover.....
After half a year of tries with LTSpice, IPad with calibrated mike and hearing, I had the idea to make a transfer from the 18dB crossover 18sound itself offers at his home page for a two way system.
Helas other drivers....but not too different to have a try.
With the data given, I first made a Spice model of the 18db crossover and looked especially a the frequency equalization of the horn.
Then I made a similar crossover, but with 12dB that should show a similar crossover point and especially the same frequency curve for the horn.
The horns needs a special equalization, look at the pdfs of 18sound.
That was difficult for me.
Of course I had many variants and it seems I am friend of a broad dip in the medium area.....
The reason might be my small hearing room....the most fascinating for me is the balave between stage of room and presence of solo instruments.
With the MaX crossover shown you can start and look yourself.... I made no dip this time.
Attachments
I bought the HD1050 and the 12NLW9300 from 18sound in the hope to build something better than my Klipsch Forte I.
The difficulty was of course the crossover.....
After half a year of tries with LTSpice, IPad with calibrated mike and hearing, I had the idea to make a transfer from the 18dB crossover 18sound itself offers at his home page for a two way system.
Helas other drivers....but not too different to have a try.
With the data given, I first made a Spice model of the 18db crossover and looked especially a the frequency equalization of the horn.
Then I made a similar crossover, but with 12dB that should show a similar crossover point and especially the same frequency curve for the horn.
The horns needs a special equalization, look at the pdfs of 18sound.
That was difficult for me.
Of course I had many variants and it seems I am friend of a broad dip in the medium area.....
The reason might be my small hearing room....the most fascinating for me is the balave between stage of room and presence of solo instruments.
With the MaX crossover shown you can start and look yourself.... I made no dip this time.
Hi generg,
Can you give more details on how this sounds. Is it close to the Max1
Is your crossover at 2k like the max and do you have any pictures of your speakers. Nice to see someone has done this
HI Audio Elite,
I had all kind of sounds of course during my experiments.....
This one is the most natural up to now, big room, sound not bound to the speakers.
I dare to say this because the clapping of hands is like you hear it in the concert room.
I never heard an original MAX 1. Seems there is a slight enhancement of the medium area, especially at the beginning. Some people find it annoying after some time, some like the freshness.
Some recommend to inverse the connections of the horns on the terminal, of course this takes away some sharpness.
I hope that I have sometimes the opportunity to hear this speaker in real some time.
Caps used are the Jantzen Z superior. Volume of the case around 75l.
Tuning of the ports is still to be done.
Sorry for the mess on the crossover board, it was the 579th change.....
I had all kind of sounds of course during my experiments.....
This one is the most natural up to now, big room, sound not bound to the speakers.
I dare to say this because the clapping of hands is like you hear it in the concert room.
I never heard an original MAX 1. Seems there is a slight enhancement of the medium area, especially at the beginning. Some people find it annoying after some time, some like the freshness.
Some recommend to inverse the connections of the horns on the terminal, of course this takes away some sharpness.
I hope that I have sometimes the opportunity to hear this speaker in real some time.
Caps used are the Jantzen Z superior. Volume of the case around 75l.
Tuning of the ports is still to be done.
Sorry for the mess on the crossover board, it was the 579th change.....
Attachments
Last edited:
yeah, the crossover point is near 2kHz.
I fully understand what LineSource commented....about shortcomings.
Nevertheless the reviews are mostly good and I had bought the speakers before reading Line Source lines....
So no way back, too much money.
They sound for sure more precise in all aspects than my old Forte I.
But maybe they need a crossover change only.
I fully understand what LineSource commented....about shortcomings.
Nevertheless the reviews are mostly good and I had bought the speakers before reading Line Source lines....
So no way back, too much money.
They sound for sure more precise in all aspects than my old Forte I.
But maybe they need a crossover change only.
Thanks so much for the reply genreg. Looks like you are having fun at least
and your speakers look like they have a lot of potential. I also have not heard the real max1's but a few people here have and like them. 2k seems a little high for a 12" but if it works then that is fabulous.
Keep us updated
and your speakers look like they have a lot of potential. I also have not heard the real max1's but a few people here have and like them. 2k seems a little high for a 12" but if it works then that is fabulous.
Keep us updated