2" affordable compression drivers

[tinitus]

Thanks guys, seems that 18sound have nice hightech CDs

Fore my future speaker, should I choose right now it would probably be one of the 2 NSD with titan/nitride cone
It would probably be NSD1095N because of price, 185EUR
I may prefer its bigger sister NSD1480N, but its a bit expencive at 425EUR

About their waveguides, well some say they work fine or even nice while others say they dont, but hopefully the new XR models are good, until I get around to making my own

In line with Radians words, I hope that proper implementation will do the job

btw, H-Audio.de seems like a good EU source

 

[sumsound]

I use to work with a system that has a pair of TAD TD-4001 mounted on JBL2395 horns/lenses and they are not that good. I don't know if the problem comes from the horns or from the drivers, but when playing music there are some frequency bands clearly missing above 6Khz and there is no way to recover them with equalization. This suggests comb filtering and/or breakup modes. I think that TD4001 are strongly overpriced and the technology is outdated.

The other reference that I have are the much newer BMS 4552 Nd (ring radiators) mounted on 18sound XT-1086 horns. They are more efficient than the TAD TD-4001 and don't seem to have anything missing in the top end after equalization.

After trying these ring radiators, I'm starting to think that there is something inherently wrong (comb filtering) with domes in the top octave, even when sophisticated time-coherent phase plugs with plenty of slits are employed. The whole dome-plug system is probably not that coherent.

I also worked with the old ElectroVoice DH1A on unknown conical horns, and there seemed to be far less stuff missing above 6Khz after equalization. Interestingly, the phase plug in these drivers uses conic holes in a semi-random pattern rather than slits.

Your kidding me right, those lenses are not going to take advantage of the HF capabilities of the TAD. The comb filtering and lack at 6kHz is probably the JBL lense. That is a really outdated concept, have you noticed nobody uses diffraction lenses anymore.

Why don't you contact the guy at DDS he makes some decent horns.

You can't fool physics. The TAD has a 4" diaphragm and for that
reason is not able to reproduce the heights of a well designed
driver with a small lightweight diaphragm.
Because integrating a tweeter is no trivial task in most cases
people like the full range of a well designed driver better than with
a tweet.
If a good tweeter like Fostex T925 or Fane ST5020 is well implemented there is no way a one driver approach can be better.
Many might argue this point but the little better coherency if at all, can not make up for the extra detail, air, and depth you get from a
tweeter. The people that argue adding a tweeter is not as good are mostly not aware that the fault lies often with bad alignment;
wrong crossover; or a mismatch of material.
Try to listen to a Titan without the Fane Tweeter you will miss more
than you gain.
I even use the Fane as a slot tweeter which just sounds better off axis.


Greets,
Klaus

The 4" Tad is still lighter and more ridged than an aluminum or Titanium diaphragm. And any Mylar Diaphragm isn't going to be as ridged. They can perform well close to 20kHz. No other 4" diaphragm can claim that.

Tweeters are nice depending on the application.

 

[sumsound]

Angelo,
Mike has always given the edge in sonics to the 850PB in the mid
and upper range. He recommended the 850PB to Linn and also to
me when I called him about three years ago.
I don't know why he recommended the 950PB to you, maybe
because you wanted to cross it over lower than 500hz. Or maybe
they want to sell more of the expensive 950PB.

I am still waiting on a 850 Neo version, which would probably be
a killer driver.

I have yet to hear a 4" diaphragm driver that has the magic of the
Yamaha JA-6681b. This must be the best ceramic magnet driver
ever build. The expensive TAD TD4001 can not compete with
the smoothness and the naturalness of this driver. I have spoken to
three people that compared them and they all like the
Yamaha better.

Here is a frequency sweep on the Azura 160hz horn.
Look at the amazing low end response from that tiny diaphragm:

Don't post a graph with 120dB of dynamic range, it skews the perspective to what the frequency response really is.

 

[oliAudio]

Hi,

Hi Brett,

Oli, please post your experiences with the Trax and BMS.

I haven't received stereolab horn yet , I use today the BMS4591 with a PAudio horn PH-4530 and the tweeter BMS4540Nd with the 18Sound horn XT120. I haven't a lot of experience with other compression drivers but what i can say:

- BMS4591 : Don't go upper than 6K-7K. Sounds good but it has the same base of coaxial BMS driver, and people say that radian PB950 (or beyma) + super tweeter sounds better than coaxial BMS drivers. Anyway I will better apreciate this driver with the sterelab horn.

- BMS4540Nd : I use it with the XT120 horn. The XT120 is a very good value for money horn (15 - 20 euros). I realy suggest 18sound horn, they can be used for hifi. The 4540Nd needs to be cut high : I try at the beginning : 800 < BMS4591 < 3500 < 4540Nd and now I have 1300 < BMS4591 < 6300 < 4540Nd which is far better.The result, I had to buy a 10" (PHL3431). The BMS4540Nd have to be equalised. I use a FIR filter and the improvement is realy appreciable.


Yersterday I sent an email to Marc Henry from Musique Concrete, concerning the Radian 950 and the Beyma 850. His answer is :

"la Radian montera plus proprement que la Beyma, vers le bas c'est pareil.
d'un point de vue subjectif, je ne peux pas te dire, je ne les ai
jamais comparées dans le même pavillon."

"Translation" : The Radian is better in high frequencies, and in the bottom of the spectrum, it is the same. But I haven't listen them on a same horn.

So +1 for the Radian 950PB again!!


Regards,

Oli

 

[Radian]

Don't post a graph with 120dB of dynamic range, it skews the perspective to what the frequency response really is.

You can still see the relation to other drivers if you go to the Azura
horns web page.

I agree that EVA's way to use the TAD was not valid to command
on its sonics.
Don't get me wrong I believe that the TAD TD4001 is an exceptional
piece of engineering, but it is not without it's faults. No matter how
high it goes, those are still the heights of a 4” diaphragm lacking
the transparency, speed and definition of a good ring radiator or a
RAAL tweeter.
As I said before Bruce Edgar's titans use a Fane tweeter. It is
crossed over with just a cap at 10khz giving it a flat frequency
response from about 6khz on up.
This is a scenario were the high end of the 4001 even gets in the
way because it's to authoritative in that range ruining the fantastic
disappearing ability of the Fane.
Now the question comes up, why use a driver that cost an arm and
a leg using expensive materials to achieve good heights on the
plot, when those heights are still not good enough to satisfy
discerning audiophiles.
Now if you take the smooth and natural mids of a well
designed driver like the Yamaha JA-6681b, Vitavox S2 or Radian
850PB with those 3” aluminum diaphragms that behave very well in
the crossover region to the tweeter and combine it with a good
tweeter, the TD4001 (like all the 4” diaphragm drivers that are
pushed to do what a tweeter is made for) have just lost their
purpose of existence.

All this expensive Alnico and Beryllium is just waisted in comparison
to the sonics that can be achieved by the above mentioned
approach.
The TD4001 might still be the driver to beat for a tweeter-less horn
design, but I could not live with this compromise.
What I also don't like with the tweeter less designs is having
friends over for some good music and taking turns for the middle
seat. It's just not what I call relaxing.
That's why I use a slot tweeter even though I might loose a hair of
this or that compared to a bullet tweeter.

Don't hear me saying that beryllium or 4” diaphragms are to be
avoided. I don't like these black statements, because there always
seems to be the exception to the rule.
Some say Alnico is the only valid magnet material but yet the
Yamaha JA6681b is a ceramic magnet driver.
Some say that titanium is to be avoided but the Fane ST5022 with
it's titanium ring when implemented right is very detailed and
transparent, better than the JBL2405 (aluminum), or EV T350 (Phenolic).

We all have different opinions and that's ok.

Audio is all about compromises and we all choose which ones we
have to make in our situation.
Even Roomy has to make some compromises.

Greets,
Klaus

 

[barossi]

Hi Klaus,

thanks for sharing your point of view.

Klaus have you ever used a MAGNETOSTAT for the hights!?

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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

Kind Regards

Hauke

 

[Radian]

Hi ??? Hauke,

I never used ribbons because the ones that I can afford are not
efficient enough to match my tractrix horns.
I want to stay with passive 6db crossovers if possible. In domestic
situations these provide a very good transition and phase if the drivers are well behaved.
I will however compare passive to active just for knowing what is
possible. I have made my own boards of modified Marchand
crossovers but they still need to be populated. Time is just not
something I have in spades.

Greets,
Klaus

 

[barossi]

Hi Klaus,

nearly 100dB with a Magnetostat...should be feasible with passive components to match your woofer....

Kind Regards

Hauke

 

[angeloitacare]

i have reached the best results so far, using the Vitavox S2 with a 23" tractrix horn, and cross a Coral H104 at 10khz.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page1/

the Radian 950pb in a 27" horn, crossed at 300hz, sounds also terrific. Similar to Vincent Brient's one :

http://vincent.brient.free.fr/principale.htm

treble however will not have the same delicacy and transparence.

 

[Radian]

Hi Klaus,

nearly 100dB with a Magnetostat...should be feasible with passive components to match your woofer....

Kind Regards

Hauke

I hate resistors in my speakers.
My tweeters are 107db efficent.
My tractrix horns are 107db efficient.
And my bass-mid horns (100 - 700hz) will be 107db efficient
when they are finally finished.
Only the sub (WO32) will be actively
crossed over with a 24db low-pass.

The Fane is so transparent and has so little signature of it's
own that I'm not in a hurry to find something better.

Greets,
Klaus

 

[oliAudio]

Hi,

Some people are happy with the Stage Accompany SA8535 pro ribbon tweeter.

@+

 

[Radian]

Hi,

Some people are happy with the Stage Accompany SA8535 pro ribbon tweeter.

@+

$$$$$$$

 

[tinitus]

Do you know how low the SA ribbon can be XOed ?

There are 2 version, one with waveguide and one without, any comments on that ?

 

[sumsound]

Hey Radian,

Of course its all compromises,

In audio.

I'd personally go with a TAD 200X series for a little more High frequency, and a little less low end.

Crossing anything over at 10Khz is a huge compromise too.

The wavelengths are so short you really can't get it to combine well with other drivers, and end up getting a lot of comb filtering at Xover.

If some how your tweeter could be coaxially mounted ( without interfering with the other driver) or concentricly mounted with your mid-HF, you will never be able to get it less that 1/4 wave from your mid-hi driver.

I like tweeters too, its actually getting them to play nice with the rest of the system that is to say the least physically impossible.

I have some old JBL 077 slot tweeters I crossed them at around 9kHz with my 2445 drivers. They are bright but things are a little smeared sounding.

I did the best I could to design a good Xover with a TEF20. I use them for PA its an interesting compromise, not the greatest.

Antone-

 

[thoriated]

I use to work with a system that has a pair of TAD TD-4001 mounted on JBL2395 horns/lenses and they are not that good.

Myself, I wouldn't attempt to render an opinion on the TAD's in any application where they are used with the old JBL horn/ lenses which add significant coloration.

I've heard both separately, and their SQ is worlds apart.

A while back, I wound up with a couple of 2301 'potato mashers' in an Ebay buy of 2420's, and, fortunately, I was able to trade the 2301's away for something better.

 

[Radian]

Hey Radian,

.....I like tweeters too, its actually getting them to play nice with the rest of the system that is to say the least physically impossible.

Antone-

Bruce Edgar's Titan (the one with the TD4001) just sounds better with
the tweeter despite it being physically impossible to integrate it and this
is the point I am trying to communicate.
But it would even sound better with a driver that was purely designed
for midrange, falling off gracefully beyond about 8khz. With every decibel
less beyond this band the integration of a tweeter gets less problematic.
Of course the TAD TD 2001 has nice heights compared to the 4001
but it reportedly has it's problems in the lower regions.
Before I use a 2001 I'd rather use the Radian 475PB. The sonic
difference between the two is according to some French audiophiles very
small.
But my main complain about the 500-18000hz one driver approach is still
the sweet spot problem even with the 1” drivers. But I have not tested this
personally. So I might make a 1” driver out of my Yamaha JA6681b to
get some first hand experience.

I always try to find the compromises that bear the least sonic penalty.
But who doesn't?

Greets,
Klaus




I try to find the compromises that bear the least sonic penalty.

 

[tinitus]

Its really not my kind of thing to do that, but I wonder about having a magnetostat mounted on the rear playing "backwards", in phase or reversed I dont know

 

[usa_satriani]

Hello there, nice reading you.

I made some testings with my JMLC 300hz horns and my Mc Cauley 6520. Even if the horns are not finished yet it was possible for me to see how it would go and to lower the xover frequency to 400hz (800hz with JBL 2380A). I still have my JBL 2226H and I was wondering if I would keep them because they did not behave well after 500hz.

So with this new set up it was possible to test with low xofer frequency and hear if the JBL could follow the compression driver and opposite try the punch of the compression at 400hz in a proper horn.

I am really pleased with the first results, lot of details, clear sound, live music ! Way better than the old set up, I don't feel any trouble or difficulties.

This is why I think a 3 way speaker is a real advantage. You can have live results from 50hz to 20khz. I use a Fostex T90A after 8khz, I really love it. I compared it to a T925 which was much quiter, softer and less realistic.

I think TAD are great drivers but it is also true that once you have listened to a 3 way with their tweeter you don't want a 2 way because there is always a lack somewhere.

Anyone tried a JBL 2405H with a 2 compression driver ?

Greg

 

[Radian]

Anyone tried a JBL 2405H with a 2 compression driver ?

The JBL 2405's are not as transparent as your T925.
Strange, you are the first one that I know that prefers the T90 over the T925. The later is a step up in the Fostex line. Your front end or amps might be the deciding factor here.
If you are looking for a better tweeter try the Fane ST-5022/20.
As I said before, Bruce Edgar used it to augment the TAD mids.
It is really an excellent tweeter when crossed right. Much better than
the JBL 2405's.
It needs to be crossed at 10khz 6db or it will sound aggressive. This
is the reason why some people got rid of it. When crossed this way
the tweeter has a 107db flat response from about 7khz on up.

Greets,
Klaus

 

[usa_satriani]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

As I said, I really can't complain about the Fostex T90A, I have always liked it in several set ups. I found that it sounded more transparent, clearer than the T925. Actually the T925 sounded like if I had tube amp & preamp : smooth, harmonics...
I use Lab Gruppen IP450 amps on the compression and the tweeter and Crown K2 on the JBL 2226H. Digital filtering using EMU 1820M. I really love that set up and would not change for much equipements.

I could try the Fane tweeter as it does not seam exepensive, I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip. The problem is that I xover @ 8khz but with an important slope.

Greg.