In my day job, I build computing clouds. I was recently scouring the market for compute nodes that wouldn't break the bank, which were also quiet. (It's easy to find powerful rackmount servers on Craigslist, but they will DEAFEN you with their noisy fans.)
In the process, I realized that this hardware is also ideal for a HTPC.
So I thought I'd share what I found, in case anyone is interested.
First off, these solutions are quite a bit different than what was possible a couple of years ago. In 2015 you would purchase a video card and a motherboard for a HTPC, and each item could cost upwards of $100. Even worse, the power requirements were severe, and this tends to make everything get big and expensive. For instance, a 500 watt power supply is a fairly bulky item.
The innovation that enables us to make some really cheap and small HTPCs in 2017 is the integration of truly powerful GPUs onto the same socket as the CPU.
Here's a table of the APUs that I like in particular:
The A10-7860K is particularly interesting. Based on my reviews of the benchmarks, it appears that the A10-7860K has performance that's comparable to the Radeon R7 250 combined with a four core AMD processor. The big difference is the power requirements; if you were to implement a HTPC with an R7 video card and a 'conventional' AMD CPU, the power requirements are more than double. By going with the A10 APU, the power draw is slashed to sixty five watts.
Another thing that I found interesting about the APU is that it accelerates decoding of videos encoded in H264. I've tested this out personally; I was able to play back a 1080P movie encoded in x264 on a 2160P television with no stuttering or jitter.
At the moment it's not clear to me if x264 decoding is being done by the CPU or the GPU. H264 decoding is definitely being done by the GPU.
One of the things that I found very interesting is that the GPU is so important to this process, you can even get away with a 25 watt CPU! For instance, I put together a system using the AMD 5350 and it was able to accomplish the same task with the addition of a R7 GPU. (A "real" one, on a PCIe slot.) I was surprised that such a low-wattage CPU can be used for 2160P playback.
Here's a couple of setups that I tried:
"fast" setup :
CPU = AMD A8-7600 ($70)
mobo = MSI A68HI AC ($50)
ram = 4GB DDR3 ($25)
case = Thermaltake Core V1 ($50)
power supply = whatever you have laying around
"not as fast" setup :
CPU = AMD 5350 ($20)
mobo = MSI AM1I AC ($30)
ram = 4GB DDR3 ($25)
case = Thermaltake Core V1 ($50)
power supply = whatever you have laying around
I tend to have a lot of PC parts laying around, I put the whole thing together for about $130
Based on what I've read on Wikipedia, both the XBOX and the PS4 are using AMD APUs. So I'm guessing that the reason that we have the opportunity to purchase such powerful HTPC gear for peanuts is because we're benefitting from millions in R&D that was sunk into the development of their APUs. The 5350 in particular appears to be one-half of a Playstation 4, for $20(!)
There's a ton of nice features in this setup:
1) native support for 2160P resolution is GREAT. These APUs are so cheap and quiet, I even turned one of my televisions into a giant 2160P picture frame. At $130, it's not much more expensive than those cheezy lo-def ones you see at department stores.
2) Low power means quiet and affordable. The 5350 APU has a TDP of 25w!
3) If you want to build a "real" PC, this chipset supports a lot of RAM.
Besides being a nice HTPC, this setup also has the horsepower to do things that a Raspberry Pi can't. For instance, you could install re-phase, and with the built-in six channel sound card you could turn this HTPC into a full fledged FIR DSP. If Rephase (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...hase-linearization-eq-fir-filtering-tool.html) is overkill for your setup, check out all the open-source IIR DSPs, like this: https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/
Note that the 5350 is no longer for sale, and seems to have become something of a collector's item, fetching 3x what it sold for new. But the other APUs are even faster and they're available at Amazon right now.
In the process, I realized that this hardware is also ideal for a HTPC.
So I thought I'd share what I found, in case anyone is interested.
First off, these solutions are quite a bit different than what was possible a couple of years ago. In 2015 you would purchase a video card and a motherboard for a HTPC, and each item could cost upwards of $100. Even worse, the power requirements were severe, and this tends to make everything get big and expensive. For instance, a 500 watt power supply is a fairly bulky item.
The innovation that enables us to make some really cheap and small HTPCs in 2017 is the integration of truly powerful GPUs onto the same socket as the CPU.
Here's a table of the APUs that I like in particular:
The A10-7860K is particularly interesting. Based on my reviews of the benchmarks, it appears that the A10-7860K has performance that's comparable to the Radeon R7 250 combined with a four core AMD processor. The big difference is the power requirements; if you were to implement a HTPC with an R7 video card and a 'conventional' AMD CPU, the power requirements are more than double. By going with the A10 APU, the power draw is slashed to sixty five watts.
Another thing that I found interesting about the APU is that it accelerates decoding of videos encoded in H264. I've tested this out personally; I was able to play back a 1080P movie encoded in x264 on a 2160P television with no stuttering or jitter.
At the moment it's not clear to me if x264 decoding is being done by the CPU or the GPU. H264 decoding is definitely being done by the GPU.
One of the things that I found very interesting is that the GPU is so important to this process, you can even get away with a 25 watt CPU! For instance, I put together a system using the AMD 5350 and it was able to accomplish the same task with the addition of a R7 GPU. (A "real" one, on a PCIe slot.) I was surprised that such a low-wattage CPU can be used for 2160P playback.
Here's a couple of setups that I tried:
"fast" setup :
CPU = AMD A8-7600 ($70)
mobo = MSI A68HI AC ($50)
ram = 4GB DDR3 ($25)
case = Thermaltake Core V1 ($50)
power supply = whatever you have laying around
"not as fast" setup :
CPU = AMD 5350 ($20)
mobo = MSI AM1I AC ($30)
ram = 4GB DDR3 ($25)
case = Thermaltake Core V1 ($50)
power supply = whatever you have laying around
I tend to have a lot of PC parts laying around, I put the whole thing together for about $130
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Based on what I've read on Wikipedia, both the XBOX and the PS4 are using AMD APUs. So I'm guessing that the reason that we have the opportunity to purchase such powerful HTPC gear for peanuts is because we're benefitting from millions in R&D that was sunk into the development of their APUs. The 5350 in particular appears to be one-half of a Playstation 4, for $20(!)
There's a ton of nice features in this setup:
1) native support for 2160P resolution is GREAT. These APUs are so cheap and quiet, I even turned one of my televisions into a giant 2160P picture frame. At $130, it's not much more expensive than those cheezy lo-def ones you see at department stores.
2) Low power means quiet and affordable. The 5350 APU has a TDP of 25w!
3) If you want to build a "real" PC, this chipset supports a lot of RAM.
Besides being a nice HTPC, this setup also has the horsepower to do things that a Raspberry Pi can't. For instance, you could install re-phase, and with the built-in six channel sound card you could turn this HTPC into a full fledged FIR DSP. If Rephase (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...hase-linearization-eq-fir-filtering-tool.html) is overkill for your setup, check out all the open-source IIR DSPs, like this: https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/
Note that the 5350 is no longer for sale, and seems to have become something of a collector's item, fetching 3x what it sold for new. But the other APUs are even faster and they're available at Amazon right now.
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Thanks sharing experience and tips, personal can agree about audio task in have old generation A8-3870 that on dedicated computer run Rephase loaded filters into JRiver steering four channels output via Essence II soundcard, and this setup is working using CPU speed category that back in time had max core speed of 3Ghz so can imagine these new higher core speeds and less power draw is exelent for a silent computer at low costs.
I was quite surprised that the GPU is offloading so much work.
If someone would have told me that a $20 1.5ghz CPU was sufficient for UHD playback, I wouldn't have believed it.
I think the big 'sea change' that we're seeing here is that the low powered APUs are beginning to include a ton of features that used to be done by the CPU.
For instance, I've seen Linux benchmarks which indicate that offloading tasks from the CPU to the GPU is netting improvements of 200-300% in some cases.
Unfortunately this is exposing an 'Achilles heel' for Linux multimedia now, which is that the Windows driver support for a lot of these features is just light years ahead of Linux. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool UNIX guy, and I initially built one of these boxes on Redhat. (Redhat is my bread and butter.)
But the AMD drivers just completely borked my install. The Windows 10 install was just completely seamless.
TLDR: the combination of great GPU support, low power, and great drivers is yielding solutions which were just impossible three years ago. And it's getting better and better every year.
It's really remarkable!
I think we're on the cusp of an era where we'll have "powered speakers" that don't just include DSP for the playback of audio, but a full-on multimedia solution.
Picture a powered loudspeaker with DSP beamwidth control, but also an HDMI output. A powered loudspeaker that you plug into your TV.
Given we can crunch overly-long, 6+ channel 64bit precision FIR filters off a rpi3 without switching over to higher throughput NEON modules, we're already good on the main core. But there's merits to having the extra horsepower for general overhead/video/etc. The amount of math needed for audio unto itself is pretty light.
No think you right looking x86 CPU that have highest efficiency per core on the market is best for performance plus environment and also bill to the electricity company, but strong point in Patrick's solution is low cost and that will fall apart then as market is.
Agree looks as nice future having features steering correction for audio chain, regarding Beolap 90 as you shared demoed in past, myself later on had half an hour demo and being alone into shop it was fantastic listening experience : )
I'm a little bothered by the GPU support (software implementation), i'm still desactivate it for my video encoding today.
Not only because there is some bugs depending of the regular updates of the drivers but mainly because i always find some visible quality issues.
Do you know the existence of this kind of motherboards ?
ASRock > N3700M
Some of them have a DC jack to be feeded directly by a laptop passive PSU and uses very powerfull laptop Intel coreI7 CPU.
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Just info: RePhase filters can be put into https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/ to do FIR filtering.
Even Atom prosessors can prosess quite long APO FIR filters.
So the prosessorintensive duty is Video.
Even Atom prosessors can prosess quite long APO FIR filters.
So the prosessorintensive duty is Video.
AMD is comming back (and it is not a bad thing) ?
I just have one remark if possible ?
How can you use a Audio dedicated PC with fans that produce 15-30dB per fan without be bored (unless you are deaf).
I'm not a "bat-man" ear equipped guy, but i can hear easely a noiseblocker or an noctua fan at only 3V (400-600 RPM) in the silent passages of my music.
And my room is 47dB... (Z)
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A good fan is only about 9 dB. I didn't realise mine had a fan untill I opened it the first time. I also have some small PC's with small fans, and they are a pain. I bought them in the faith, that they were fanless.
I'm not sure what a noiseblocker is!
edit - my ears are very sensitive to noise
I'm not sure what a noiseblocker is!
edit - my ears are very sensitive to noise
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No, the noiseblocker fans have ball bearings, the really silent fans have FDB motors.
But i've tested some of most silent FDB fans avaliable, and even at low RPM with very soft silicone silent blocks, i hear them (and some others audio enthusiats that i've encountered kidding with that
on listening tests)Kind of off topic. You can get atom PCs without fan.
But not a video monster
My desktop I5 (74W) with its Nvidia powerfull GPU is also totally fanless
My investement in the watercooling in 2004 is the best PC stuff i've ever buy (it is the same system since the Socket A). Because the Zern waterblocks are adaptable on everything of the past and the future.
Kaveri
I believe the answer is "neither" but I'd have to look through the spec sheets to be 100% certain.
Off the top of my head, I believe the 'bulldozer' cores came out about five years ago, and were getting really long-in-the-tooth. Ryzen came out this year. Neither have GPUs.
The interesting thing about the APUs is that they're really starting to demonstrate the synergy of owning a video card manufacturer. (AMD bought ATI a few years ago, and these APUs are arguably the fruit of that labor.)
I would argue that the main reason that the 8350s are so ridiculously cheap and low-power are because they're basically one-half of the processor that's in a PS4. AMD seems to have this thing for grafting two processor cores onto the same die, they have a new CPU coming out that's freaken huge:
Zotac fanless C-Series NUCs. A ZBOX-CI323NANO with Intel N3150 Quad Core is under $140 on Amazon right now. With a little judicious shopping for RAM and a boot SSD it's easy to keep it in the low $200s. OpenElec or LibreElec are free if that's your style.
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