You're right, and I apologize for doing it, in spite of it being a redundancy. Even I fall victim to this laziness.
I'm still trying to understand what 'hard to listen to' means. I'm at a loss.
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hard to listen to.
I think that the hash from 1-4khz is the area the an12 gets into trouble.
There is a huge lift in the smoothed responses, or a few spikes (resonances).
Most like the voice on the an12, but I think guitar (for rock) has strong harmonics in the 1-4khz region, that might be why people find it "hard to listen to".
Norman
I think that the hash from 1-4khz is the area the an12 gets into trouble.
There is a huge lift in the smoothed responses, or a few spikes (resonances).
Most like the voice on the an12, but I think guitar (for rock) has strong harmonics in the 1-4khz region, that might be why people find it "hard to listen to".
Norman
nope, that's the an12 cast. Look closely at the frequency.
it's the rise past 800hz (like 5db and +10db spikes), then you will lose highs off axis fast above 1,200hz also.
You really want a dip in that area, it sounds better than even flat to my ears.
Think of a bbc dip, or the smile shape on a 10 band equalizer. It sounds much better, especially below 90db.
Norman
it's the rise past 800hz (like 5db and +10db spikes), then you will lose highs off axis fast above 1,200hz also.
You really want a dip in that area, it sounds better than even flat to my ears.
Think of a bbc dip, or the smile shape on a 10 band equalizer. It sounds much better, especially below 90db.
Norman
Ok, I'm looking at it right here:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm keeping in mind that graphs can be made to look better than they would under normal circumstances. For example most of the graph deals with the 20-5,000hz portion. This tends to stretch out the horizontal movement, showing less sudden vertical shifts, as seen in the 2k-10k range. But even taking that into account, it certainly looks better than just about any full range driver I have seen in a good while.
I'm trying to recall the beta 12 series and I don't believe they have anything near that.
i had these speakers, 12" cast frame.
Was very happy with them, sounded good to my ears in my first ever blh.
Problem is xmax. If you're a fan of playing loud like me, and you try to make them play bass, you might end up assigning them to the garbage bin before long. I do miss these speakers, but it would be nice if they just had a little bit more xmax.
And they are "beamy".
Was very happy with them, sounded good to my ears in my first ever blh.
Problem is xmax. If you're a fan of playing loud like me, and you try to make them play bass, you might end up assigning them to the garbage bin before long. I do miss these speakers, but it would be nice if they just had a little bit more xmax.
And they are "beamy".
Perhaps a nice older pair of 12" Cerwin-Vegas, from an older two-way system, and mated with a good high end driver, using a competent crossover, would do the trick. I know that there are two lines prior to the 'D' series, where people had a choice of two-way, or three-way, speakers.
By the 'D' series, the two-way was history, to the best of my knowledge. One of the earlier 12" two-ways had a 2500hz crossover, and the other one had a 3000hz crossover. Getting down there, or lower would be doable.
Has anybody tried out the Cerwin-Vega, which has very good sensitivity, with a high frequency driver? I feel certain that someone has.
By the 'D' series, the two-way was history, to the best of my knowledge. One of the earlier 12" two-ways had a 2500hz crossover, and the other one had a 3000hz crossover. Getting down there, or lower would be doable.
Has anybody tried out the Cerwin-Vega, which has very good sensitivity, with a high frequency driver? I feel certain that someone has.
OP , I own the AN Cast Frame 12's and you will not need a tweeter .
Since you mentioned adding one I thought I'd let you know the treble response is excellent on the driver alone .
If you have a tube amp you will want to add a zobel . It works out really well.
The contour circuit Michael Chua recommends at the AN CF 12 parameters measured post elsewhere here at DIY audio smoothes things out and I use a 31 band graphic eq to notch a few db's cut at the couple of midrange spikes mentioned in previous posts.
With none of these the speakers sound good, but with each of my simple tweaks they are fine as wine.
Probably not the best for symphony crescendos or metal but I really enjoy mine for my listening tastes.
They're sensitive to insulation changes and overdamped sound stuffy..... so experiment. They need large cabinets too . 2.8 cu. ft. are what mine are in but I'm going to build some larger ones for them . Maybe 4 ft. or so,
Our living is too small for the 5.6 cabs.
Since you mentioned adding one I thought I'd let you know the treble response is excellent on the driver alone .
If you have a tube amp you will want to add a zobel . It works out really well.
The contour circuit Michael Chua recommends at the AN CF 12 parameters measured post elsewhere here at DIY audio smoothes things out and I use a 31 band graphic eq to notch a few db's cut at the couple of midrange spikes mentioned in previous posts.
With none of these the speakers sound good, but with each of my simple tweaks they are fine as wine.
Probably not the best for symphony crescendos or metal but I really enjoy mine for my listening tastes.
They're sensitive to insulation changes and overdamped sound stuffy..... so experiment. They need large cabinets too . 2.8 cu. ft. are what mine are in but I'm going to build some larger ones for them . Maybe 4 ft. or so,
Our living is too small for the 5.6 cabs.
John L -
I returned home from RMAF last Oct. convinced that I had found the Holy Grail of audio in single driver, full-range, high-efficiency speakers. I went on a quest and stumbled upon CommonSenseAudio/Audio Nirvana. I live relatively close to CommonSenseAudio/Dave Dicks and road tripped to his place a couple of months ago to check'em out. I listened to a pair of Audio Nirvana 15" cast frame neodymiums mounted in his simple 5.6cf bass reflex boxes for a long time... hours. Mr. Dicks is a quite gratious host and is a dedicated music lover, let there be no doubt.
I don't know how to explain the anomalies in the frequency response graphs that even Mr. Dicks publishes, no misrepresentation there at all, but the speakers just sound "live". Like "real" music. This is one case where you must trust your ears - and forget the specs. I was convinced enough that I'm building a pair. I'm about 50% of the way thru my build of a pair of 5.6cf boxes, with much enhanced bracing over the simple "box" plans they provide, and aesthetics tailored to my "liking".
I'm to the point where I need to order the drivers and have them in my hands to fine-tune dimensional tolerances, cut baffle holes, etc. But I'm a bit torn between just getting the ferrite cast frame 12's here on the first buiild, or spend the extra $$ for the Alnico or Neodymium versions. There is a huge price penalty for the more exotic magnet material versions. I wish I could audition all three side-by-side to see if I can actually "hear" differences. I don't suppose anybody on this forum has heard all three have you?
most like the cast frame 15's (only $400). If you heard the 15" alnicos and loved them, save some more moolah and buy them, don't doubt yourself.
Cone area helps to sound good. Even last night, my 8" 2 way with a 10" sub run wide open (good sub bass and baffle step fill) just sounded weak at normal levels. Dynamics suffered. So back in goes my big rig (dual 15's).
Cone area helps to sound good. Even last night, my 8" 2 way with a 10" sub run wide open (good sub bass and baffle step fill) just sounded weak at normal levels. Dynamics suffered. So back in goes my big rig (dual 15's).
Hello Norman,
BTW, in your big rig dual 15, are you using a 15 as FR or for bass only ?!
I am using Eminence alpha 15 in Martin Style H-frames for bass but still not finalised the mid driver for an active 3-way OB. For the tweeters I am keeping the Fountek Neo 3.
So far, the fostex FE 208ESigma sounds the cleanest one (guess that means least resonant) compared to Eminence 12cx, B102, and Fostex FF225WK. However the Eminence drivers have fuller low end and less detail. The AN drivers will be up next for trial to cover 150-4k Hz on the OB. Which one do you guys suggest, the Super 12 or super 15.
Thanks for the great discussion.
BTW, in your big rig dual 15, are you using a 15 as FR or for bass only ?!
I am using Eminence alpha 15 in Martin Style H-frames for bass but still not finalised the mid driver for an active 3-way OB. For the tweeters I am keeping the Fountek Neo 3.
So far, the fostex FE 208ESigma sounds the cleanest one (guess that means least resonant) compared to Eminence 12cx, B102, and Fostex FF225WK. However the Eminence drivers have fuller low end and less detail. The AN drivers will be up next for trial to cover 150-4k Hz on the OB. Which one do you guys suggest, the Super 12 or super 15.
Thanks for the great discussion.
lol, my setup depends on my mood, but I have a big room also (16x19 with hallway off of it, many windows also, sit 12' away). I usually run the big rig (15's crossed at 750hz), but sometimes use 4x4" in a focused array (with or without bass support), and sometimes a klipsch rb75. But I'm mid process of a silver flute/mcm round horn thing also, and occasionally I like a 6" crossed at 5khz to a piezo.
I wasn't keen crossing my 4x4" full rangers at 150hz-200hz, the phase wrap (24db) just sounded wrong to me in the bass.
I've been looking at the 12" AN and the 15" AN and if you have the room for a big box or open baffle, I'd get the cast frame 15's. Flatter response without nearly the tweaking needed of the an12.
Norman
I wasn't keen crossing my 4x4" full rangers at 150hz-200hz, the phase wrap (24db) just sounded wrong to me in the bass.
I've been looking at the 12" AN and the 15" AN and if you have the room for a big box or open baffle, I'd get the cast frame 15's. Flatter response without nearly the tweaking needed of the an12.
Norman
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This is about Affordable$$Audio, the EZine. I don't find David Dicks associated with the publicacation anywhere. Do you know something? Ortherwise that's a fairly damning statement.
Well, everything is a compromise. No matter what i choose for my next project i really doubt i will remain happy for long. I started buying parts for some unity horn project, but had to turn around because of various reasons.
So my preferences are:
I really like point source sound.
A good fullrange is only comparable to another good fullrange, coax is not fullrange.
I do not like xo's, least of all passive ones after power amp, not very fond of dsp's either.
I hate beamy drivers.
I like playing loud (and clean), so high-ish spl is preferable.
Although i do sort of miss the AN CF 12", I do not like the beaming and the limited power handling, i felt that they are also a little bit shouty. On the + side they are relatively cheap, they have decent spl, they are also relatively cheap, and they are not that expensive.
I guess you get what you pay for.
I have some Hawthorne SSI 10"s now, they are also good i guess, using them with minidsp at the moment, sounds decent and everyone coming to visit is impressed, but although i get spl, power handling, punch, and everything is really well knit together (cannot really point out any obvious flaws at xo points), it sounds lifeless and un-engaging. Not to mention the problems with my TH in this room.
I much prefer the speakers i made for my daughter with some cheap 4" tangband fullranges and just a pair of LM3875 with an alps pot. Slow roll off from ~130hz -3db at 60hz then dives after that. Much more fun.....
Here's a pic.
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Hah! Medium sized....
I think i am starting to lean more towards dual 4" fullrange per box with maybe a helper tweeter with a good cap for roll off, or a really good and sensitive 8" pro driver with a small compression thingy on top. The stands would be some 12" subwoofer boxes or something, been eyeing the Beyma 12BR70, compared to the stuff i have here now and have thrown out before that would probably just barely hit the definition of medium sized.
The good thing about the 2xFR solution is that i have everything except a matching tweeter, it would definately be compact, 10L or so.... More tempting than going back to the AN 12" since it's a very short trip to my mess in the basement, rather than 2 weeks wait and a trip to the post office + more cash for the AN's.
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