Yes the wings on mine are small in comparison…but to be honestthe AE Dipoles are in another league compared to any 15 I’ve heard in an open baffle.
The bass that I get from the combination of the Hypex amps driving the 15” AE Dipole drivers in these baffles is remarkable.
There is no sub in this system.
As I mentioned in my first post…I had to dial the gain on the bass back on the B5 when I fired the system up with the Sonidos.
The Sonidos could also easily produce more mid bass on the new upper section of the baffles as they are larger than my previous design that used the Lii Audio Crystal 10(pic)…but I have never felt a lack of bass response with the AE in these baffles with any combination I’ve tried.
I listen to everything…classical guitar, piano and Guqin performances, all types of Jazz, various Rock, Dubstep, Downtempo you name it. I’m not personally a fan of Country or large scale orchestral music…but there are various recordings in those categories I do have and listen to occasionally.
The bass that I get from the combination of the Hypex amps driving the 15” AE Dipole drivers in these baffles is remarkable.
There is no sub in this system.
As I mentioned in my first post…I had to dial the gain on the bass back on the B5 when I fired the system up with the Sonidos.
The Sonidos could also easily produce more mid bass on the new upper section of the baffles as they are larger than my previous design that used the Lii Audio Crystal 10(pic)…but I have never felt a lack of bass response with the AE in these baffles with any combination I’ve tried.
I listen to everything…classical guitar, piano and Guqin performances, all types of Jazz, various Rock, Dubstep, Downtempo you name it. I’m not personally a fan of Country or large scale orchestral music…but there are various recordings in those categories I do have and listen to occasionally.
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B5 is currently set for a second order 12dB slope at 200Hz for the Sonidos
No baffle step set…haven’t felt compelled to add a shelf filter
Low pass for woofers is set at 160Hz…second order for the low pass
There is a woofer high pass to filter out subsonics with a 6dB bump at 20Hz. A pot appears to allow how much of the bump you want…I have it maxed out.
No baffle step set…haven’t felt compelled to add a shelf filter
Low pass for woofers is set at 160Hz…second order for the low pass
There is a woofer high pass to filter out subsonics with a 6dB bump at 20Hz. A pot appears to allow how much of the bump you want…I have it maxed out.
How about depth perception? I noticed it to suffer a lot by such close to wall speaker placement
To be honest, I haven’t experimented with pulling the speakers out further…not very realistic in this room…so I couldn’t say if it would get better in a room this size.
I don’t feel the sound stage to be lacking regarding depth and width given the limitations of the room
Leon’s placement recommendations are not that far off from my current situation.
As I said, my panels are now an approximation of his design. The wings are slightly shallower and taller for sure.
His article seems to recognize that his design took into consideration smaller rooms.
He prescribes about 2 feet from the rear wall and 1 foot from the side walls as a minimum.
I will try shifting them out into the corners again like his placement illustration and see if I feel it improves imaging or anything else.
As I said, my panels are now an approximation of his design. The wings are slightly shallower and taller for sure.
His article seems to recognize that his design took into consideration smaller rooms.
He prescribes about 2 feet from the rear wall and 1 foot from the side walls as a minimum.
I will try shifting them out into the corners again like his placement illustration and see if I feel it improves imaging or anything else.
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There is a benefit to toe in on a dipole. Since they don't radiate out to the side, you eliminate many of the first reflections from the side walls. Linkwitz suggested toeing in to basically point the plane of the baffle at the first reflection point to improve room acoustics.
^ This is key thing, great benefit with open baffle systems. Using big fullrange driver as tweeter makes this hard though because there is only one toe-in angle where treble is good.
Try to have good listening axis response, proper stereo listening triangle setup and still have side nulls towards first reflection points and possibly head the bulk of back radiation through multiple reflections, long path length difference to direct sound. All at the same time to reap all benefits from such system.
Try to have good listening axis response, proper stereo listening triangle setup and still have side nulls towards first reflection points and possibly head the bulk of back radiation through multiple reflections, long path length difference to direct sound. All at the same time to reap all benefits from such system.
My latest OB speakers, just finished, tweaked a bit and now running...
It's a very frugal project, all drivers are from old Yamaha and Kawai organs, carefully selected and matched for the project.
All the wood is also recycled, reclaimed stuff, even the screws are reclaimed from the old organs.
The wall panels follow the same approach, recycled wood pieces and wine corks.
Started as a 2-way with Kawai 30p09, Kawai 20spfn and a Yamaha JA0560 helper tweeter but now added Yamaha JA3063 as a 0.5 woofer.
XO for upper woof and fullrange is a Series one @1kHz, lower woof is fed through a 5mH coil (for roughly 200Hz cut) and the tweet through 1uF cap (for approx. 12kHz cut). All 1st order, no Zobels, no resistors.
Speakers are driven by a 5W ACA amp, thank you Mr. Pass. Driven with aplomb, very effortless open and detailed sound.
Sensitivity is 95 dB.
These are my 5th OB speakers and probably the best so far.
Have plans for at least 2 other OB projects, also have the drivers.
Here are some pics:
It's a very frugal project, all drivers are from old Yamaha and Kawai organs, carefully selected and matched for the project.
All the wood is also recycled, reclaimed stuff, even the screws are reclaimed from the old organs.
The wall panels follow the same approach, recycled wood pieces and wine corks.
Started as a 2-way with Kawai 30p09, Kawai 20spfn and a Yamaha JA0560 helper tweeter but now added Yamaha JA3063 as a 0.5 woofer.
XO for upper woof and fullrange is a Series one @1kHz, lower woof is fed through a 5mH coil (for roughly 200Hz cut) and the tweet through 1uF cap (for approx. 12kHz cut). All 1st order, no Zobels, no resistors.
Speakers are driven by a 5W ACA amp, thank you Mr. Pass. Driven with aplomb, very effortless open and detailed sound.
Sensitivity is 95 dB.
These are my 5th OB speakers and probably the best so far.
Have plans for at least 2 other OB projects, also have the drivers.
Here are some pics:
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Not sure what you mean?…is Leon not around anymore?…I took the Crystal 10 out?…they’re no longer made or sold?
Couldn’t find anything about Leon.
Lii is evidently still offering the Leonidas…with their newer “flagship” drivers I believe.
https://www.lii-audio.com/product/p...drivers-simple-and-musical-complete-solution/
I still have the Crystal 10…they will most likely make an encore performance on a new baffle section that more closely matches the current design which as I mentioned mimics Leon’s design reasonably but is not an exact replica.
I may try adding a sandwich layer to the wings to make them deeper.
For now, I’ve been playing with positioning in the room. Here is a pic of them shifted out.
I mimic Leon’s positioning map in my room. They’re 8 feet apart, a little over 2 feet off the end wall, minimum of 1 foot off the side walls (spacing slightly asymmetric from left to right due to room dimensions) and toed in so that I am slightly off axis with overlap behind me.
I think this has added some more width and depth to the imaging.
Today I played one of my most familiar childhood albums to see what it was like to ask the system to rock and throw images back and forth in the room…Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon.
I was impressed. Have I heard more spatial presentations? I think so.
Part of the reason I say that is that this is a wideband Sonido driver. Some of the sparkle and air that defines things is not quite there. I wouldn’t call them deficient by any means…they have an enormously enjoyable balance to them. The flip side to that is no shout apparent at all.
The Sonido’s sound rich and lush in their presentation without being completely dull…which is a welcome experience in this type of driver.
I can probably try playing them a bit more on axis and pic up a little more air in the high frequencies.
My other option…and it is something I want to try either way…is to integrate my Fostex T90A.
For now I want to play them, enjoy listening, tweak the crossover and see if there is any apparent “break in”.
If you have any other specific questions about the Sonido or Lii please ask and I will try and answer.
Other drivers I have and might want to try again possibly are Lowther DX3, Tang Band W8-1808 and Fostex 206E.
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It's because the driver is too big which will make it beam and lower the overall high frequency energy in the room which will result in less airy sound. An 8 inch driver such as your full range driver will start beaming at roughly 1000hz which means that you're basically missing most of the highs above 2khz because of the falling response off axis. To fix this you need significantly smaller full range drivers, 3 inch or smaller would be a good start or add a tweeter, I personally found the missing highs (mostly lack of air) still perceivable on 5 inch voxatives and even a bit on 3 inch eads so take that for what you want.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Lowther.htm here is an example showing measurement of a similar driver (they all have roughly the same problem some a bit worse and some better) showing what I am saying, you can see that at 2khz 60 degrees off axis the frequency response already dropped 6db, it is slightly better because of the whizzer cone which acts as a secondary driver extending the response a bit and the fact that it is not on an open baffle which would further lower it due to cancelation effects. The Fostex T90A will not improve it much as it can't be crossed over low enough with its high fs (3k) to the 8 inch driver nor does it have a dipolar response (not that the Sonido has that either due to the big baffle but it at least radiates some energy to the back while the fostex will not) which will also impact the perceived quality of the highs.
I’ve dealt with my share of beaming issues with larger wideband drivers…I’ve owned quite a few now.
It was especially difficult to deal with having used front horns with these drivers for a while.
I’ve used several 3-4 inch widebands. However, I prefer how a larger 8-10” wideband delivers the 300-3000 Hz range much better…that’s why I still own so many of them, where as I’ve passed the smaller drivers on.
My experience has been that high frequency response is not the end all of hi-fidelity.
Let’s face it, at the age of 55 I’m lucky if I can here 13kHz.
By adding the T90A I’m not trying to create the perfect frequency response…that would be ridiculous to expect.
I’m simply trying to “pull the frame into focus” a little better…so to speak.
It was especially difficult to deal with having used front horns with these drivers for a while.
I’ve used several 3-4 inch widebands. However, I prefer how a larger 8-10” wideband delivers the 300-3000 Hz range much better…that’s why I still own so many of them, where as I’ve passed the smaller drivers on.
My experience has been that high frequency response is not the end all of hi-fidelity.
Let’s face it, at the age of 55 I’m lucky if I can here 13kHz.
By adding the T90A I’m not trying to create the perfect frequency response…that would be ridiculous to expect.
I’m simply trying to “pull the frame into focus” a little better…so to speak.
Than use the 8/10 inch for that range or cross it around 1/2k with a low order corssover for a good blend and use a 3 inch above that, it's that simple, obviously a 3 inch fr alone won't give good output at 300hz or really much below 800hz on an open baffle, I really meant with assistant woofers to relief its lowend.
The frequency response of most systems is almost 1:1 related to the perceived sound.... The point i am trying to make is that crossing over a beaming supertweeter at 6k (because that is the consequence of the 3k fs, you can't really cross it much lower) is not making your response much better (read fixing your problem) and you would do better fixing the root cause instead. I seriously doubt it does much if anything for the highs beside changing the tonal balance (because most people probably won't filter the fullrange too which will result in too much highs), the fostex ain't really much better in dispersion than just the fullrange in itself maybe 2db less beaming.
As said the problem already starts at 2k and at 5k it's a severe problem I don't think your hearing is that bad, if that was the case the fostex tweeter wouldn't do much either anymore at that point.
exaggerate problem good 8" FR goes up quite well !.....I suggest to you use normal speakers
is always little trade off ,only one thing is to avoid the whizzer use a little smaller ones
I’m not trying to argue any point on what is right or wrong regarding speaker design here.
My experience dictates my preferences. This is a hobby of experimentation.
Above and beyond my preference toward the reproduction of what I consider to be the “meat and potatoes” of the frequency range (300-3000) by a larger wideband driver is my desire to maintain a point source as best as I can.
My next stop in this exploration will be to mount a Tannoy dual concentric on open baffle and see what the results are.
I have accepted bass assistance easily because of its more non directional nature and obvious benefits.
I prefer a single wideband up top because of the simplicity and the cohesive nature of its presentation
Whether or not the T90A has any benefit or if I would be satisfied with the outcome is simply a question I have. I won’t know unless I try.
The approach is empirical. I’m open to different ideas. This is just where I’m at right now.
I’m not the first to take this approach, won’t be the last.
My experience dictates my preferences. This is a hobby of experimentation.
Above and beyond my preference toward the reproduction of what I consider to be the “meat and potatoes” of the frequency range (300-3000) by a larger wideband driver is my desire to maintain a point source as best as I can.
My next stop in this exploration will be to mount a Tannoy dual concentric on open baffle and see what the results are.
I have accepted bass assistance easily because of its more non directional nature and obvious benefits.
I prefer a single wideband up top because of the simplicity and the cohesive nature of its presentation
Whether or not the T90A has any benefit or if I would be satisfied with the outcome is simply a question I have. I won’t know unless I try.
The approach is empirical. I’m open to different ideas. This is just where I’m at right now.
I’m not the first to take this approach, won’t be the last.
Your speakers and room look great. With the woofers is their any design reason for the air gap under the baffle rather then sealing to the floor?
“Dimensions are almost identical. Only difference I maintained was leaving a gap at the bottom of the bass panel as I wanted the option of adding a second pair of slot loaded woofers (like Papa Pass’s 2nd gen SLOB) for use with a variety of other high frequency solutions that will have an even higher sensitivity than the current set up.”
It’s a bit of a long story. These panels were built almost 8 years ago.
To elaborate…the panels were originally made from reclaimed laminated IKEA shelves and old lumber I found put out to the curb…so the dimensions were dictated by that a bit.
Originally the gap was there because I wanted to elevate the full range drivers a bit.
The angle of the panels was shallow and I was trying to get the speakers in line with a 38” listening position height.
As time progressed and I wanted to try different things they changed a bit based on the drivers mounted.
When I mounted the Lii drivers and was looking at Leon’s design I thought about extending the bottom of the baffle to the floor.
Based on my listening, I didn’t feel like I needed it for the design to sound good as far as bass response was concerned.
I had in the back of my mind the desire to eventually try two woofers with a more efficient wideband solution or even coaxial (driver or horn).
Having seen Nelson Pass’ second take on his slot loaded open baffle, I decided to just leave the gap because its dimensions matched a 1/3 Sd slot opening for the AE dipole 18 drivers I had.
My idea for a more compact OB with two woofers was to slot load the lower one.
It’s a bit of a long story. These panels were built almost 8 years ago.
To elaborate…the panels were originally made from reclaimed laminated IKEA shelves and old lumber I found put out to the curb…so the dimensions were dictated by that a bit.
Originally the gap was there because I wanted to elevate the full range drivers a bit.
The angle of the panels was shallow and I was trying to get the speakers in line with a 38” listening position height.
As time progressed and I wanted to try different things they changed a bit based on the drivers mounted.
When I mounted the Lii drivers and was looking at Leon’s design I thought about extending the bottom of the baffle to the floor.
Based on my listening, I didn’t feel like I needed it for the design to sound good as far as bass response was concerned.
I had in the back of my mind the desire to eventually try two woofers with a more efficient wideband solution or even coaxial (driver or horn).
Having seen Nelson Pass’ second take on his slot loaded open baffle, I decided to just leave the gap because its dimensions matched a 1/3 Sd slot opening for the AE dipole 18 drivers I had.
My idea for a more compact OB with two woofers was to slot load the lower one.