After trying 2nd order L-R crossing in points for the Vitavox S2 upper mid channels, I turned my attention to the X/O of the Raal Lazy Ribbons.
These provide the snow above 11000Hz or so.
I turned my measuring mic on them and wondered what they would sound like coming in with 2nd order L-R instead of 1st order Butterworth?
Let the S2 sound be more dominant or more alone at these heady frequencies, perhaps less smeared?
Measuring showed me that really a 12000Hz 2nd order could do better.
I've lashed up a C1 at 470nF and L1 at 0.37mH XO as below.
Ignore the S2 woofer😂
This measured nicely on its own and together with the S2.
I'm listening now to evaluate.
These provide the snow above 11000Hz or so.
I turned my measuring mic on them and wondered what they would sound like coming in with 2nd order L-R instead of 1st order Butterworth?
Let the S2 sound be more dominant or more alone at these heady frequencies, perhaps less smeared?
Measuring showed me that really a 12000Hz 2nd order could do better.
I've lashed up a C1 at 470nF and L1 at 0.37mH XO as below.
Ignore the S2 woofer😂
This measured nicely on its own and together with the S2.
I'm listening now to evaluate.
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My previous tweeter X/O experiments peaked my interest..
In need of the 9th and 10th output (Najda expansion board that I never got to acquire), I wanted to quickly test many different X/O points and slopes on the Raal Lazy Ribbon tweeters.
I have a spare Nadja setup.
I took the paired output from the amp that drives the upper mid channels and fed it to the analogue input of the 2nd Nadja.
Then using just 1 pair of outputs from the 2nd Najda fed the tweeter amp.
Great result, no discernable loss of quality, volume was the same with the 2nd Najda on 0dB and I could mess about to be hearts content listening to 2nd / 3rd / 4th order high pass X/Os played from the 2nd Najda.
I settled on 12KHz, 3rd order.
This is both higher and steeper than I originally used and thought was fine for years[emoji849][emoji23]
I subsequently made up a pair inductors to sit and the caps necessary to do this in passives.
These worked very nicely and the 2nd Najda can go back into mothballs.
Stopping the Raals playing 1st order low has really cleaned up the upper mid sound. The S2s are not muddied by the Raals playing down over them I guess.
In need of the 9th and 10th output (Najda expansion board that I never got to acquire), I wanted to quickly test many different X/O points and slopes on the Raal Lazy Ribbon tweeters.
I have a spare Nadja setup.
I took the paired output from the amp that drives the upper mid channels and fed it to the analogue input of the 2nd Nadja.
Then using just 1 pair of outputs from the 2nd Najda fed the tweeter amp.
Great result, no discernable loss of quality, volume was the same with the 2nd Najda on 0dB and I could mess about to be hearts content listening to 2nd / 3rd / 4th order high pass X/Os played from the 2nd Najda.
I settled on 12KHz, 3rd order.
This is both higher and steeper than I originally used and thought was fine for years[emoji849][emoji23]
I subsequently made up a pair inductors to sit and the caps necessary to do this in passives.
These worked very nicely and the 2nd Najda can go back into mothballs.
Stopping the Raals playing 1st order low has really cleaned up the upper mid sound. The S2s are not muddied by the Raals playing down over them I guess.
Congrats!! Great to experiment, confirm and build the definitive xo.
I am running AMTs which I really like, but up high measurements show they aren't the best. But when running sweeps I can hear up to 16kHz or so, so I have sort of ignored the measurements up high.
Was wondering how high do you hear the sweeps? Since for you the improvement in sound above 12kHz is worth another driver, I'm thinking there might be more to it than just how high I can hear sweeps. Are you going to make me buy a spertweeter??
Cheers!
I am running AMTs which I really like, but up high measurements show they aren't the best. But when running sweeps I can hear up to 16kHz or so, so I have sort of ignored the measurements up high.
Was wondering how high do you hear the sweeps? Since for you the improvement in sound above 12kHz is worth another driver, I'm thinking there might be more to it than just how high I can hear sweeps. Are you going to make me buy a spertweeter??
Cheers!
I use my Raal 14-150D down to 2000 Hz. They are currently sharing the channel to the midhorn on a channel from 450-20khz. But I really want everything active. I used them 2nd order and 4th order and really prefer the 4th order. The passive crossover is probably completely wrong, but sounds okay. I am more concerned to get it right with the midhorn that is sharing the channel with the Raal tweeter.
They are currently sharing the channel to the midhorn on a channel from 450-20khz. But I really want everything active. I used them 2nd order and 4th order and really prefer the 4th order. The passive crossover is probably completely wrong, but sounds okay. I am more concerned to get it right with the midhorn that is sharing the channel with the Raal tweeter.
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So many ways to skin the proverbial cat.
If it sounds good, Just do it[emoji3]
The Lazy Ribbons only go down to 3khz (reportedly).
I've tried them as a 4 way with the mid horns a few times. Pretty darn good!
I always end up missing the Vitavox S2 sound, esp on Le Clèac'h horn I now have, and put them back[emoji23]
4 way with Raals doing 3.5KHz and up.
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As a little test, I swapped the Raals and the S2 about.
So S2s were higher up. Raals at ear level.
Did the time alignment.
Listened.
Interesting to hear a different presentation. Lots of strengths to this driver combo in any orientation.
But ultimately the sound is coherent and more pleasantly presented with the S2s at ear height and the Raals the snow on top.
It's a sound I can absolutely lose myself in these days.
So S2s were higher up. Raals at ear level.
Did the time alignment.
Listened.
Interesting to hear a different presentation. Lots of strengths to this driver combo in any orientation.
But ultimately the sound is coherent and more pleasantly presented with the S2s at ear height and the Raals the snow on top.
It's a sound I can absolutely lose myself in these days.
Oops! I ordered a JMLC-Iwata 600 to accompany my JLMC Iwata 220. No more Raal midrange, say hello to proper compression driver midrange! I have no idea what I will do with 1400-20KHz. New territory for me. Is Iwata 600 too big? Idea is for it to take over at 1400Hz and meet the Raal ribbon tweeter, now acting like a real tweeter or even super tweeter.
Then later, much later - Fane S 8M - 80-300Hz channel.
Then later, much later - Fane S 8M - 80-300Hz channel.
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From spec, 1400 to something (driver dependent) looks perfectly doable.
What compression drivers were you thinking?
I've found the Raals are very flexible to cross in to taste high up.
I've gone back to 1st order on the Raal Lazy's, 11.5K. I missed the extra bite and get up and go of them playing down a bit together with the S2, in the end.
Funny game this and long term listening is the true decider.
What compression drivers were you thinking?
I've found the Raals are very flexible to cross in to taste high up.
I've gone back to 1st order on the Raal Lazy's, 11.5K. I missed the extra bite and get up and go of them playing down a bit together with the S2, in the end.
Funny game this and long term listening is the true decider.
What size is your smallest horn before the Lazy Ribbon?
Old Yamahas. They drop like a stone at 10K, but I prefer to cross them before that. I am not wven sure I can hear up to 12K!
The Raal 14-150D works a bit diferent than Lazy Ribbon and has more midrange. The lazy ribbon looks like it drops like a stone just where you want it, needing only a 6dB crossover. But with the ribbon transformer, don't you get a second order anyway? Or is it digital? Even if you just put a protection cap on it, it will be a second order, if I understand it correctly. At 8 ohm, my 14-150Ds transformer is 2mH.
Old Yamahas. They drop like a stone at 10K, but I prefer to cross them before that. I am not wven sure I can hear up to 12K!
The Raal 14-150D works a bit diferent than Lazy Ribbon and has more midrange. The lazy ribbon looks like it drops like a stone just where you want it, needing only a 6dB crossover. But with the ribbon transformer, don't you get a second order anyway? Or is it digital? Even if you just put a protection cap on it, it will be a second order, if I understand it correctly. At 8 ohm, my 14-150Ds transformer is 2mH.
I have Le Clèac'h 550Hz horns now before that I was using either 550Hz or 400Hz tractrix.
Both had their merits.
The Le Clèac'h is smoother / more natural but vivid too. Neat trick!
I just stuck a 1.1 or 1.2uf cap on the Lazy's. Can't remember which.
They give a measurement like a 1st order or so..
When I tried 2nd / 3rd order caps & inductors, the slopes were steeper.
Both had their merits.
The Le Clèac'h is smoother / more natural but vivid too. Neat trick!
I just stuck a 1.1 or 1.2uf cap on the Lazy's. Can't remember which.
They give a measurement like a 1st order or so..
When I tried 2nd / 3rd order caps & inductors, the slopes were steeper.
I think you will like them, but I have never heard them myself.
I have spent 7 years A-B testing back and forth and I am still not sure if I like Iwata or round horn better (Kugelwellen/JMLC-ish). My round horn is slightly smaller and is good from 550Hz minimum and is great for the whole midrange, but my Iwata is 220Hz and can actually play down 270Hz very well, not so great above 2000Hz, because of size and possibly shape: PETF Applied to JMLC Horns – Simulation Results | Sphericalhorns
The main difference is that the iwata sounds more open and relaxed. The round horn is a little like staring down a well, while the Iwata spreads the sound in the room. The Iwata is also made of 5-10 cm thick construction wood so that always helps.
I have spent 7 years A-B testing back and forth and I am still not sure if I like Iwata or round horn better (Kugelwellen/JMLC-ish). My round horn is slightly smaller and is good from 550Hz minimum and is great for the whole midrange, but my Iwata is 220Hz and can actually play down 270Hz very well, not so great above 2000Hz, because of size and possibly shape: PETF Applied to JMLC Horns – Simulation Results | Sphericalhorns
The main difference is that the iwata sounds more open and relaxed. The round horn is a little like staring down a well, while the Iwata spreads the sound in the room. The Iwata is also made of 5-10 cm thick construction wood so that always helps.
Here is a REW measurement I did on the JMLC-Iwata 220 with Umik-1. I am pretty satisfied with that!
Apparently the Iwata-300, the little brother to this one, also goes down very low, but is less good for midrange and treble. Well, I knew that, so I am using a smaller horn for everything above 2500Hz now, but soon I will use another set of compression drivers in a Iwata 1400. Maybe I should go round horn, but I just love the shape of these.
And here is what it sounds like on my cellphone:
More V-Fet goodness. - YouTube
Apparently the Iwata-300, the little brother to this one, also goes down very low, but is less good for midrange and treble. Well, I knew that, so I am using a smaller horn for everything above 2500Hz now, but soon I will use another set of compression drivers in a Iwata 1400. Maybe I should go round horn, but I just love the shape of these.
And here is what it sounds like on my cellphone:
More V-Fet goodness. - YouTube
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