Reading again, yes.....but.......nevermindObviously; but never mind, some people do enjoy their grudges, I’m not the one to spoil their fun.
Hi krivium,
You're right about the studio process. They mix what they think will sell based on the artist, producer and engineer's input.
As for the speakers they use, studio mains are there to be loud and are often anything but flat - and they are all different (as are the rooms). The NS-10M near field monitors were supposed to represent the average pair of bookshelf speaker at the time. They had really nice tweeters. More importantly they were a standard every large studio had. That way the mix could be heard the same way no matter where the project went. So getting a different monitor defeated the entire purpose of them. Finally there were "awful tones" (Auritone I think) that were representative of TV speaker, or table radio speaker. They gave a general idea on level and how things would sound out of those devices. They have value and were yet another standard on the mixing console.
The standard amplifier was the Crown DC300, a class "B" thing that I don't think sounds very good. Others used Bryston 4B amplifiers. Another iffy sounding amp. So the average person looking at the studio environment might decide that these things represented the goal to reach, but that would be a mistake. Studios needed standards that were reliable and not terribly costly. That's the truth of it.
-Chris
You're right about the studio process. They mix what they think will sell based on the artist, producer and engineer's input.
As for the speakers they use, studio mains are there to be loud and are often anything but flat - and they are all different (as are the rooms). The NS-10M near field monitors were supposed to represent the average pair of bookshelf speaker at the time. They had really nice tweeters. More importantly they were a standard every large studio had. That way the mix could be heard the same way no matter where the project went. So getting a different monitor defeated the entire purpose of them. Finally there were "awful tones" (Auritone I think) that were representative of TV speaker, or table radio speaker. They gave a general idea on level and how things would sound out of those devices. They have value and were yet another standard on the mixing console.
The standard amplifier was the Crown DC300, a class "B" thing that I don't think sounds very good. Others used Bryston 4B amplifiers. Another iffy sounding amp. So the average person looking at the studio environment might decide that these things represented the goal to reach, but that would be a mistake. Studios needed standards that were reliable and not terribly costly. That's the truth of it.
-Chris
The math used to calculate the effect of various types and distributions of noises is way over your head, so I would refrain of mentioning anything about. About hearing and discriminating noise types and distributions, you know my opinion, no need to reiterate.
Hi Chris,
We agree. When i talk about big mains i talk about the rooms i used to work in, mostly T.Hidley's rooms from late 70's early 80's, and they were fitted with Kinoshita's RM range ( most of the time changed from Westlake to RM4 once Hidley introduced Kino as 'standard' in it's 'zero environment' rooms... studio owners are like 5 y old kids jealous of the neighbour having new toys) and JMF amp ( french manufacturer, rebranded Kinoshita for his system but still JMF amps: incredible beast able to deliver a lot of amperes!).
I never liked ns10 and prefered the Auratones ( mostly because they have nothing below 150hz and an awful 11khz peak which mimics small portable radio behavior and put voice intelligibity range in front ).
I wonder if the ns10 have became a ref because M.Jackson's engineer used them ( because of portability/ easily moved).
I agree about Bryston and Crown/Amcron. But Crown are ok in multiamp setup ( this is what i use atm). Not state of the art in anyway but once bandlimited they are ok. I've heard much better amp though and in my next system they'll be some Ncore or Ucd ( heretic i am i told you so no need to start a flamewar for those inclined to).
We agree. When i talk about big mains i talk about the rooms i used to work in, mostly T.Hidley's rooms from late 70's early 80's, and they were fitted with Kinoshita's RM range ( most of the time changed from Westlake to RM4 once Hidley introduced Kino as 'standard' in it's 'zero environment' rooms... studio owners are like 5 y old kids jealous of the neighbour having new toys) and JMF amp ( french manufacturer, rebranded Kinoshita for his system but still JMF amps: incredible beast able to deliver a lot of amperes!).
I never liked ns10 and prefered the Auratones ( mostly because they have nothing below 150hz and an awful 11khz peak which mimics small portable radio behavior and put voice intelligibity range in front ).
I wonder if the ns10 have became a ref because M.Jackson's engineer used them ( because of portability/ easily moved).
I agree about Bryston and Crown/Amcron. But Crown are ok in multiamp setup ( this is what i use atm). Not state of the art in anyway but once bandlimited they are ok. I've heard much better amp though and in my next system they'll be some Ncore or Ucd ( heretic i am i told you so no need to start a flamewar for those inclined to).
Last edited:
I'm usually confused because there are things in other amplifiers that do not exist in my amplifier
I think that the illusion of space and reverberation can be added by harmonics in the amplifier (even though it does not exist in recording).I have always thought that bipolar amplifiers sound wrong. Sound in a can. Giving sound information that shouldn't be there. Mosfet is the opposite. Incomplete information such that there is this terminology: "dark background"...
Cool. Yes.
Hi krivium,
We certainly are on the same page here.
Hi johnego,
So, most amplifiers designed with Mosfets aren't designed properly and have high distortion compared to what they could have. I get superior results using Bipolar transistors of recent manufacture. In fact, I am redesigning the Counterpoint amplifier output sections with Bipolar transistors and getting superior results that people prefer in listening tests. This is a study over more than a decade involving many people who liked the original design.
I suspect you need to listen to some good bipolar amplifiers, ones from good designers.
-Chris
We certainly are on the same page here.
Hi johnego,
Okay, but that is an effect you are adding. That's fine for you.
That statement is far too general! So many different sounding bipolar amplifiers! You must be listening to poorly designed models to come to that conclusion.
Most Mosfet amplifiers are driven by a low current / high impedance stage (ie: done wrong) and they suffer from high dynamic distortion especially at higher frequencies. They also tend to have a higher impedance. Mosfet amps can sound good, but that is not common. Most high end amplifiers made with Mosfets are designed by people who don't understand how to drive them. I would consider Nelson Pass to be an expert, but his interests right now are into low powered systems and may not represent a good system for many of us. Excellent work on his part.
So, most amplifiers designed with Mosfets aren't designed properly and have high distortion compared to what they could have. I get superior results using Bipolar transistors of recent manufacture. In fact, I am redesigning the Counterpoint amplifier output sections with Bipolar transistors and getting superior results that people prefer in listening tests. This is a study over more than a decade involving many people who liked the original design.
I suspect you need to listen to some good bipolar amplifiers, ones from good designers.
-Chris
Johnego yes i understand.
And i agree we don't all listen to the same things. One of the things i learned visiting this place and i couldn't thank you all enough for that! ( Scottjoplin have been a whitness of my revelation about it some years ago, as in good french people i had the arrogance to think that what i liked is what everyone should! ).
Why i think we should all take things with a bit of a stepback. We love same thing afterall, just different way.
And i agree we don't all listen to the same things. One of the things i learned visiting this place and i couldn't thank you all enough for that! ( Scottjoplin have been a whitness of my revelation about it some years ago, as in good french people i had the arrogance to think that what i liked is what everyone should!
).Why i think we should all take things with a bit of a stepback. We love same thing afterall, just different way.
I'm actually against it. But it is not easy to know who is adding something and who is missing something.
That was a generalization (on my part).
Even most of his design is I will consider UNDERBIASED. This is the reason why many prefer say KSA50/100 than most Aleph amps. But Aleph current source is about increasing efficiency of class-A. It is obvious that (as long as there is no problem with higher Zout) removing this current feedback will improve the sound.
Believe it or not, there are a lot more people in this world that would prefer the sound of bipolar than the sound of mosfet (doing interpolation here). I call that preference. I think what is preferred here is the effect of high transconductance that make bipolar amps sound smooth and effortless. Then probably because people have grown up listening to music produced by bipolar amplifiers. And because most music are amplified, people are so used to low quality amplification that they cannot hear the problem with the sound.
I have.
Last edited:
WHOA!
I have found a way to widen the soundstage upwards
[--snip--]
Yes, floor to ceiling speakers will give an expanded & theatrical soundstage......
If you stack the same speaker on top of itself, it achieves the same effect.
If you have two pairs of the same speaker i.e. four in total, you should put 1 in each corner of a square shaped room, then just multiply the stereo cable, at least this is how my mind usually works~
I have had the opportunity to do this. Two bookshelves wired in series on top of each other to make an MTTM.
So that is why you have a unique way of thinking
Initially i though Peufeu was refering to a kind of approach which have been used in the past and which i know there was a crew doing this in the town he live in ( Lyon iirc):
Acousmonium - Wikipedia
Then i understood i was located in the same place as the bees-bees with my own ramble about loudspeaker/acoustic...
Acousmonium are based upon stereo for 'multichanel' playback effect through different phase behavior, freq response, etc,etc...of the forest of loudspeakers installed, all that driven by a 'director' at a big mixing desk.
Very interesting, i used to go to a festival in 'Les salines royales d'Arc et Senans' in Jura, France called 'Les nuits bleues' where it was two days in a row of Acousmonium deligth ( ambient or neo classical - Boulez or GRM/IRCAM style, electronica,...) laying on the floor surrounded by loudspeakers... i liked it!
Festival de musique Nuit Bleue a Arc-et-Senans dans le Doubs
Acousmonium - Wikipedia
Then i understood i was located in the same place as the bees-bees with my own ramble about loudspeaker/acoustic...
Acousmonium are based upon stereo for 'multichanel' playback effect through different phase behavior, freq response, etc,etc...of the forest of loudspeakers installed, all that driven by a 'director' at a big mixing desk.
Very interesting, i used to go to a festival in 'Les salines royales d'Arc et Senans' in Jura, France called 'Les nuits bleues' where it was two days in a row of Acousmonium deligth ( ambient or neo classical - Boulez or GRM/IRCAM style, electronica,...) laying on the floor surrounded by loudspeakers... i liked it!
Festival de musique Nuit Bleue a Arc-et-Senans dans le Doubs
Last edited:
A definite yes, not a maybe, for snake oil peddlers. Vive les colporteurs.
The fish comment is a common technique to sidetrack the thought of readers, it bears no relation to probability to gain benefit from more research.
Honest experienced people like Chris, Krivium and Charles Darwin have nothing to lose and help by sharing their thoughts, findings and experiences. In contrast, I seriously question the motive behind the pestering and use of derogatory nonsense designed to dissuade people in the dark like me from asking questions, doing experiments or research.
+1
You noticed that too. Crank the bias then do it mu follower style.
Perhaps a supposedly dark unknown area.
His post wasn't meant for you. It was meant for those who easily fall for audio FUD.
Then i understood i was located in the same place as the bees-bees with my own ramble about loudspeaker/acoustic...
It is absolutely possible that the (unplugged) speakers on top of the speakers actually playing music had an acoustic effect due to making the baffle taller. Maybe has to do with diffraction on the edge of the baffle or something. But it is just as likely that it was just suggestion and mind games: taller speakers, taller image.
The JBLs I bought used yesterday are now in the office. I'm very happy with this purchase.
My bad Peufeu, i really thought you were joking about it!
And tbh i appeared in the thread without reading the previous page so wasn't into dacs and all... and brought my own bias and obsessions to it.
So fair game to be teased to me ( i didn't save N101N so it's fair to have a feedback... no please, no feedback!! ).
Indra1,
As you rotated the loudspeakers and things was better this was 'lobing' at play. One whole subject in itself...
And tbh i appeared in the thread without reading the previous page so wasn't into dacs and all... and brought my own bias and obsessions to it.
So fair game to be teased to me ( i didn't save N101N so it's fair to have a feedback... no please, no feedback!!
).Indra1,
As you rotated the loudspeakers and things was better this was 'lobing' at play. One whole subject in itself...
Last edited:
I don't understand the hate hehe. I don't really care with those trying to sell sweet-coated ****. This is how the world is. I assume they are trying to find money to feed their families
I just care with myself and families to be different, to have higher standard in morality.- Status
- Not open for further replies.