In regard to post #478
I think the most appropriate way of presenting a loudspeaker selection would be to link each suggestion to a real life commercial loudspeaker photograph with a NOTE that some of the specs may be altered in our favor, which we will be dealing with at some point later in time. People will most likely build a loudspeaker that they have confidence in and the confidence
$ comes with advertising and we know that commercial products have that covered already. Each loudspeaker design should have its description and specs as presented by a manufacturer in its own unique post number. And there should be a waveguide tweeter among these as well.
I think the most appropriate way of presenting a loudspeaker selection would be to link each suggestion to a real life commercial loudspeaker photograph with a NOTE that some of the specs may be altered in our favor, which we will be dealing with at some point later in time. People will most likely build a loudspeaker that they have confidence in and the confidence
$ comes with advertising and we know that commercial products have that covered already. Each loudspeaker design should have its description and specs as presented by a manufacturer in its own unique post number. And there should be a waveguide tweeter among these as well.I don't find a Ciare 12 inch driver with these parameters, which is the type number?
I found the Ciare 12 inch FXC 12-3. In a 80 L basreflex tuned at 45 Hz, the F3 is 45 Hz and the full space sensitivity is 90 dB.
The volume can also chosen smaller, in a 65 L basreflex cabinet tuned at 48 Hz, F3 = 48 Hz.
Interesting driver for some concepts.
We have to limit our options for poll (cannot include 21 suggestions).
So I tried to limit the options by the design type and target they are proposing, which I think make sense, since for example NS-5000 and Harbeth both have similar coffin style box with similar speaker sizes, more detailed features can be discussed later, also tried to represent all suggested design types so let me know if i miss something.
also I used "Classic Box" term instead of monkey coffin so it won't confuse people w certain design goal/look.
1- Classic Box - 10" Woofer + 5-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (90-92db+ , F3~40-50Hz)
2- Classic Box - 10" Woofer + 5-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (86-88db+ , F3~30-40Hz)
3- Classic Box - 12" Woofer + 5-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (~90db , F3~35-40Hz)
4- Classic Box - 2x 8" Woofers + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (90-92db+ , F3~35-45Hz)
5- Tower - 2x 8" Woofers + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter ((90-92db+ , F3~30-40Hz)
6- Sealed Box - 10-12" Woofer + Open Baffle 5-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (~90+ F3~50Hz)
7- Stand Mount - DSP Controlled Narrow Bandwidth - 4x 6.5" Woofers + 5" Midrange + 1" Dome Tweeter (~100db , ~30Hz)
if this is acceptable to you let know so we can start the poll asap
ps: didn't include the wave guided tweeter option here since it would be more than 10 options again, we can discuss it later.
I'd think a smaller midrange would be better for the Classic Box, 3"-6" or so. Also, a dome midrange (e.g., Volt VM752) might be a good option instead of a cone midrange.
Aatto: It seems people are more hung up on volume than driver size. Maybe instead of just saying type of box and driver size, go for type of box and internal box volume + sensitivity. And given the limited volumes people are mentioning just forget low frequency extension, if it goes below 50hz it should be good enough, especially if it's a closed box.
Edit:
Maybe volumes should be increments of 20 liters?
so 40 - 60 - 80 - 100 - 120 ?
Edit:
Maybe volumes should be increments of 20 liters?
so 40 - 60 - 80 - 100 - 120 ?
sorry if i don answer each reply individually,
I think including a picture as merlin el mago suggested would be confusing since it will not represent the final product but as Lojzek suggested it is a good idea to include similar commercial products for each option. for 12" classic we do have Harbeth and NS-5000 and classic 10" would be smaller version of mentioned products, we also have the OB5 and Alons for OB option, for stand mount DSP controlled we have kii three but I do not have similar products suggested for 2x8" classic and the tower speaker.
I will include this in final post before the poll, if you have more suggestions please leave a reply.
as for size and volume, I think we need to set an approximately size/volume before the poll, same as some other features need to be set as well, poll options are limited to 10 and it is not possible to include all asked suggestions.
My personal understanding is a volume size of 100 liter fits well for 12 inchers and 80-100 for 10inch ones and 2x 8", and maybe 60-80 liter for tower ? thoughts ?
also, about sealed vs ported unfortunately I don't think we can include that for each option since it will double the number of options to have in the poll which is not possible. so any suggestion how to decide on this ? my vote goes to ported also i suggest a TL design, it can reduce the cabinet size (a bit harder to build)
I think including a picture as merlin el mago suggested would be confusing since it will not represent the final product but as Lojzek suggested it is a good idea to include similar commercial products for each option. for 12" classic we do have Harbeth and NS-5000 and classic 10" would be smaller version of mentioned products, we also have the OB5 and Alons for OB option, for stand mount DSP controlled we have kii three but I do not have similar products suggested for 2x8" classic and the tower speaker.
I will include this in final post before the poll, if you have more suggestions please leave a reply.
as for size and volume, I think we need to set an approximately size/volume before the poll, same as some other features need to be set as well, poll options are limited to 10 and it is not possible to include all asked suggestions.
My personal understanding is a volume size of 100 liter fits well for 12 inchers and 80-100 for 10inch ones and 2x 8", and maybe 60-80 liter for tower ? thoughts ?
also, about sealed vs ported unfortunately I don't think we can include that for each option since it will double the number of options to have in the poll which is not possible. so any suggestion how to decide on this ? my vote goes to ported also i suggest a TL design, it can reduce the cabinet size (a bit harder to build)
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Aatto, I had no intention of doing a sealed vs ported vs everything in between kind of thing. Easiest is just saying what volume + general form it should be and what sensitivity (in the lower end of the spectrum).
In general 100 liters does fit well with 12" if it's a ported design, but it's a bit difficult to say "this size should be ported, that should be sealed!" etc. before the work has even begun.
So my point was, all this talk about driver sizes etc is completely irrellevant, it does not matter what some poll says, just go for volume, general form of the box, and intended spl goal.
Nothing about driver sizes, type of loading, frequency extension and such, please. The discussion automatically descends into nitpicking and complete lack of productivity. Driver sizes, type of loading and frequency extension will give itself when people start working on a design towards a specific set of goals.
There's my 3 and a half cents.
If theres no progression here within the coming week I am removing myself from this topic. It has gone on for too long allready.
Edit:
Not intending to deliver melodramatic ultimatums, it's just that my time can be more meaningful doing something else.
In general 100 liters does fit well with 12" if it's a ported design, but it's a bit difficult to say "this size should be ported, that should be sealed!" etc. before the work has even begun.
So my point was, all this talk about driver sizes etc is completely irrellevant, it does not matter what some poll says, just go for volume, general form of the box, and intended spl goal.
Nothing about driver sizes, type of loading, frequency extension and such, please. The discussion automatically descends into nitpicking and complete lack of productivity. Driver sizes, type of loading and frequency extension will give itself when people start working on a design towards a specific set of goals.
There's my 3 and a half cents.
If theres no progression here within the coming week I am removing myself from this topic. It has gone on for too long allready.
Edit:
Not intending to deliver melodramatic ultimatums, it's just that my time can be more meaningful doing something else.
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I appreciate you contribution to this, based on suggested designs, some of the design goals you are talking about are pretty much there, if you look at the suggestions most designs suggests a medium size box, I would say 60-100 liters, high SPL 90-92db+, and deep bass extension, about the driver size, it is been discussed as we get ahead of ourselves but it will not be final till after poll.
the reason that I try to put as much information in the poll as I can is in fact each thread can have one poll only and now with help of forum moderators, they will reset and edit the poll, so to prevent having more and more polls for each step I try to limit that.
so unless i m wrong, box size, general form and SPL is already talked about, they are some suggestions in posted poll option that does not follow this criteria, but they are there in case there are more people interested to go in that direction but are not involved in conversations
the reason that I try to put as much information in the poll as I can is in fact each thread can have one poll only and now with help of forum moderators, they will reset and edit the poll, so to prevent having more and more polls for each step I try to limit that.
so unless i m wrong, box size, general form and SPL is already talked about, they are some suggestions in posted poll option that does not follow this criteria, but they are there in case there are more people interested to go in that direction but are not involved in conversations
OK, correct me if i m wrong, having high SPL and going deep (f3 of 30-35hz) with one driver (not talking bout exotic expensive ones) is not something we can pull easily if ever, also going deep goes against a sealed cab with one driver, so based on the fact that almost all the suggested designs are ported and have lower SPL, just to get things going, I would suggest to lower our expectation for SPL and also go ported (eliminate the sealed cab).
I mean we have to make compromises here.
I m not saying there are no ways to get around these obstacles, it just requires more conversations that may lead to loose interest.
1- Classic Box - 10" Woofer + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
2- Classic Box - 10" Woofer + Dome Midrange + Dome Tweeter
3- Classic Box - 12" Woofer + 4-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
4- Classic Box - 12" Woofer + Dome Midrange + Dome Tweeter
5- Classic Box - 2x 8" Woofers + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
6- Tower - 2x 8" Woofers + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
7- Sealed Box - 10-12" Woofer + Open Baffle 5-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (~90+ F3~50Hz)
8- Stand Mount - full DSP Controlled direcivity - 4x 6.5" Woofers + 5" Midrange + 1" Dome Tweeter (~100db , ~30Hz)
All Classic and Tower cabinets are ported and have the volume of 60-100 liters based on driver size and F3, also will have SPL of 86-90db (full space) with expected f3 of 30-35Hz.
I mean we have to make compromises here.
I m not saying there are no ways to get around these obstacles, it just requires more conversations that may lead to loose interest.
1- Classic Box - 10" Woofer + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
2- Classic Box - 10" Woofer + Dome Midrange + Dome Tweeter
3- Classic Box - 12" Woofer + 4-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
4- Classic Box - 12" Woofer + Dome Midrange + Dome Tweeter
5- Classic Box - 2x 8" Woofers + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
6- Tower - 2x 8" Woofers + 4-6" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter
7- Sealed Box - 10-12" Woofer + Open Baffle 5-8" Cone Midrange + Dome Tweeter (~90+ F3~50Hz)
8- Stand Mount - full DSP Controlled direcivity - 4x 6.5" Woofers + 5" Midrange + 1" Dome Tweeter (~100db , ~30Hz)
All Classic and Tower cabinets are ported and have the volume of 60-100 liters based on driver size and F3, also will have SPL of 86-90db (full space) with expected f3 of 30-35Hz.
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Uhm, it's easier doing that with one driver than with two. Dual drivers means each driver has to be 16 Ohm, which greatly reduces the choices. Finding a suitable 8 Ohm driver is much easier because there are a lot more 8 Ohm drivers out there.
I don't get this. Ported tends to give better bass efficiency / extension, because it "recycles" the energy that was radiated from the back of the driver. Going to 90 dB or less means we're giving up the "weak amp compatibility" that was mentioned in numerous posts. I think that's a bad idea.
Yes. The right compromises! To figure this out, we need to nail down the design goals.
It seems that so far in the discussion about the poll questions the there was a tendency to confuse/mix design goals with implementation approaches. I'd say the poll should ask for the design goals only.
Examples:
(1) Should the speaker design focus on "amplifier friendliness + WAF (sacrificing deep bass)" vs "amp friendliness + deep bass (sacrificing WAF)" vs "WAF + deep bass (sacrificing amp friendliness)"?
(2) What is the largest acceptable size of the speaker (provide choice of different volumes)?
(3) Do you prefer the tower or "monkey box"/monitor format?
(4) What is the max. allowed parts cost?
etc.
Getting the answers to such questions will narrow down our design goals. Once we have these, we can discuss options to implement those design goals.
Asking for implementation approaches like "ported" vs "closed box" or "10 inch" vs "12 inch" is not helping us to get a clear picture of what we're trying to achieve.
Originally Posted by Aatto
7- Post #306 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer, 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
For the BMF1 style design described in post #493
If you can accept a 12cuft ported woofer cabinet, the 18" Faital 18FH500 or $215 Peavey LoRider18 can produce -F3 ~30Hz with ~95-96db sensitivity. A TALL MLTL cabinet will produce smoother, slightly deeper bass .. maybe put the port near the top of the cabinet?
that's what I meant.
got me wrong, I meant we may need to forget about the sealed option since we can't go deep with one woofer in sealed cabinet
I m in for ported design and I meant we MAY need to compromise "amp friendly" to get more bass even in a ported design Agreed, this is what KaffiMann was talking about, these questions should be answered but not by the poll, these are not poll questions, it will be too many options to mix all these questions for poll, it would be nice if people leave their suggestions in replies. any suggestions ?
I start w myself :
(1) Should the speaker design focus on "amplifier friendliness + WAF (sacrificing deep bass)" vs "amp friendliness + deep bass (sacrificing WAF)" vs "WAF + deep bass (sacrificing amp friendliness)"?
"WAF + deep bass (sacrificing amp friendliness)"
(2) What is the largest acceptable size of the speaker (provide choice of different volumes)?
100L (similar to Harbeth) 700-750 x 400 x 300-350 for 12".
(3) Do you prefer the tower or "monkey box"/monitor format?
Classic design (monkey style!)
(4) What is the max. allowed parts cost?
I think we decided on 1500$ MAX for drivers and parts (~1000$ for drivers, stereo), the less the better.
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I don't get it. Why can such questions not go in a poll? No need to mix them with the other stuff.
I think everyone agrees that the designs should be 90db/2.83v or higher. Further: type and size of enclosure in relation to goal sensitivity automatically dictates low end response, you can not decide that a 60 liter box should have an f3 of 35hz and at the same time achieve 96dbw sensitivity, it is not possible.
The project team have mandate to; and are expected to; find the best compromise within the given constraints.
If it is obvious that sensitivity rating and box volume dictates it might as well be a closed box with whatever limitations follow, that is fine and completely up to the design team to decide.
My crude suggestions of what the poll should contain, all volumes are internal volume of enclosure IE not including any material:
Option 01: 88-90dbw 60 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 02: 88-90dbw 60 liter Tower/Floorstander
Option 03: 88-90dbw 80 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 04: 88-90dbw 80 liter Tower/Floorstander
Option 05: 88-90dbw 100 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 06: 88-90dbw 100 liter Tower/Floorstander
Option 07: 92-93dbw 60 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 08: 92-93dbw 60 liter Tower/Floorstander
Option 09: 92-93dbw 80 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 10: 92-93dbw 80 liter Tower/Floorstander
Option 11: 92-93dbw 100 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 12: 92-93dbw 100 liter Tower/Floorstander
Option 13: 95-96dbw 120 liter Classic/Bookshelf
Option 14: 95-96dbw 120 liter Tower/Floorstander
As much as I'd like to have an option for even larger solutions, it is not realistic that it will win by vote. Further, I suggest that the largest AND the smallest design with the most votes should be planned in detail and preferably built.
Keep it simple, make it easy to read and understand, no details or promises in the poll please. The design team will work towards the decided goals.
In attachement a figure out of the article of R. Small about vented box systems (reference article). It shows the relation between the cutoff frequency F3, the cabinet volume VB and the maximum efficiency of a vented loudspeaker system. In the figure you see the maximum efficiency. The typical practical efficiency will be 2 – 3 dB lower, because of driver mechanical losses, enclosure losses and the use of less efficient basreflex alignments (cfr. article R.Small).
To be more practical, I have calculated the typical efficiency in terms of the corresponding SPL sensitivity at 1m, 2.83Vrms in full space for a driver DC resistance equal to 6 Ohm (typical value for a 8 Ohm driver). And added these sensitivity values on the corresponding efficiency lines in the figure in red color.
Example:
- a speaker with VB = 80 L and F3 = 40 Hz shows a typical sensitivity of 90 dB.
- a speaker with F3 = 30 Hz with a volume VB not larger than 40 L has a sensitivity lower than 84 dB.
It is easy to see in this graph how F3, VB and sensitivity are related if choosing a speaker concept.
Like Kaffimann is mentioning also, if I understand it well, the combination cabinet volume, F3 and sensitivity has to be chosen first and after that the driver and cabinet setup, etc… that is my opinion also.
If there is interest for it, I can post the same graph for closed box also.
Paul
To be more practical, I have calculated the typical efficiency in terms of the corresponding SPL sensitivity at 1m, 2.83Vrms in full space for a driver DC resistance equal to 6 Ohm (typical value for a 8 Ohm driver). And added these sensitivity values on the corresponding efficiency lines in the figure in red color.
Example:
- a speaker with VB = 80 L and F3 = 40 Hz shows a typical sensitivity of 90 dB.
- a speaker with F3 = 30 Hz with a volume VB not larger than 40 L has a sensitivity lower than 84 dB.
It is easy to see in this graph how F3, VB and sensitivity are related if choosing a speaker concept.
Like Kaffimann is mentioning also, if I understand it well, the combination cabinet volume, F3 and sensitivity has to be chosen first and after that the driver and cabinet setup, etc… that is my opinion also.
If there is interest for it, I can post the same graph for closed box also.
Paul
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