They don't. You must be really new to this
And while i agree with eriksquires about the "darkness", again, a very polite term, some listeners no doubt will appreciate this as smoothness and lack of edge.
And this is why subjective opinions should always be taken in context. And objective data describing sound outside of gross distortion, has still be discovered. Perhaps mid next century.
Pygmy : I really really wish they showed up!
One of the most dramatic examples of capacitors and their sounds was when breaking in new Mundorf MKP's in a Focal speaker. Something VERY weird was going on. I was getting surround-sound effects from music. Some notes or instruments would cause me to hear something on the floor behind my chair and it would scare me. 2-3 days later this all went away.
My hypothesis is that something related to head related transfer function effects was happening. Some delicate manipulation of amplitude and phase which my ear/brain interpreted as being behind me.
As an engineer/scientist/data guy, I really wish I had empirical understanding of what exactly was going on. I do not. I have my ears, and my trust in them. I could think of experiments and measurements to undertake, but I lack the resources and time. It would be super interesting to compare actual signals at the driver in high resolution looking for shifts in time and phase because I do not believe steady state measurements could pluck these results out.
Best,
E
One of the most dramatic examples of capacitors and their sounds was when breaking in new Mundorf MKP's in a Focal speaker. Something VERY weird was going on. I was getting surround-sound effects from music. Some notes or instruments would cause me to hear something on the floor behind my chair and it would scare me. 2-3 days later this all went away.
My hypothesis is that something related to head related transfer function effects was happening. Some delicate manipulation of amplitude and phase which my ear/brain interpreted as being behind me.
As an engineer/scientist/data guy, I really wish I had empirical understanding of what exactly was going on. I do not. I have my ears, and my trust in them. I could think of experiments and measurements to undertake, but I lack the resources and time. It would be super interesting to compare actual signals at the driver in high resolution looking for shifts in time and phase because I do not believe steady state measurements could pluck these results out.
Best,
E
Last edited:
Sorry if it was an uninformed question, or sparking HiFi guru debate, I am indeed pretty green on all this.. :/
I'm usually very analytical minded - "if there's a substantial difference, it should be measurable, right?" ...
But I know especially in audio not everything has been measured, let alone every combination of properties of components have been figured out.
I somehow want to keep an open mind without letting my brains fall out
I'm usually very analytical minded - "if there's a substantial difference, it should be measurable, right?" ...
But I know especially in audio not everything has been measured, let alone every combination of properties of components have been figured out.
I somehow want to keep an open mind without letting my brains fall out
Last edited:
Sure you are in the right forum?I somehow want to keep an open mind without letting my brains fall out
This often amuses me as to how a passive component like a capacitor can have 'a sound of its own' that it can impart to a loudspeaker and yet not be measurable. If such a capacitor does do that then it is clearly not of pure capacitance but rather has been fiddled with.
In electrical theory at this level (forgetting quantum mechanics) we only have 3 fundamental elements available to us that we can manipulate, inductance, capacitance and resistance. For tweaking a capacitor resistance would need to be placed in parallel with it to enhance the higher frequencies over lower frequencies.
But that paralleled resistance would be easily detectable with modern measuring equipment as 'leakage'. Inductance on the other hand can be added in series internally to a audio capacitor to form a series resonant circuit which, over a narrow range of frequencies high up in the audio band produces a small but noticeable increase in output to the tweeter.
The series resonant circuit formed in the capacitor will at resonance become a short circuit as the capacitive and inductive reactances of those elements cancel out. This slight boost in high frequencies gives the boutique capacitor a sense of airiness or brightness over that of an unadulterated capacitor which you may only pay a few dollars for.
Of course this is only a suggestion as to how it may be done and tested it may not appear to be significantly out of the ordinary. Putting a high price on something so often hides tricks of the trade in making something appear more refined than it really is.
C.M
In electrical theory at this level (forgetting quantum mechanics) we only have 3 fundamental elements available to us that we can manipulate, inductance, capacitance and resistance. For tweaking a capacitor resistance would need to be placed in parallel with it to enhance the higher frequencies over lower frequencies.
But that paralleled resistance would be easily detectable with modern measuring equipment as 'leakage'. Inductance on the other hand can be added in series internally to a audio capacitor to form a series resonant circuit which, over a narrow range of frequencies high up in the audio band produces a small but noticeable increase in output to the tweeter.
The series resonant circuit formed in the capacitor will at resonance become a short circuit as the capacitive and inductive reactances of those elements cancel out. This slight boost in high frequencies gives the boutique capacitor a sense of airiness or brightness over that of an unadulterated capacitor which you may only pay a few dollars for.
Of course this is only a suggestion as to how it may be done and tested it may not appear to be significantly out of the ordinary. Putting a high price on something so often hides tricks of the trade in making something appear more refined than it really is.
C.M
Last edited:
Oh, no relation to the Real (Physical) World out there.
For a Capacitor to be actually "Dark" it should either have *huge* inductance so it kills treble or have such high internal resistance (say from 5 ohm up) that involved Tweeter (if used in a speaker crossover that is) gets attenuated by at least 2 dB, preferrably more or frequency selective losses, which absorb a lot of highs..
All readily *measurable* parameters of course.
Anything else is subjective, expectation fulfillment, placebo effect, you name it.
About 0.5dB change over a wide bandwidth is audible. -0.5dB is about is 95% in linear or 0.2ohm in series with a 4ohm speaker. Given that many capacitors can have an ESR of 0.1ohm or greater it is quite plausible that different caps could produce an audibly different frequency response. Subtle, but audible. Additionally, different caps will not be exactly the same capacitance so this may cause an audible change due to the crossover points changing.
The classic scenario is that someone replaces some very tired aluminium electros (ESR>1ohm) with a brand new poly film capacitor (ESR<0.2), and proceeds to sing praises about the 'clarity' their new $50 boutique polypropylene capacitors and how all aluminium electrolytics are garbage when in fact all that has happened is that they have raised the level of their tweeter a dB or so, and not actually caused an audible difference in non-linear distortion.
There is also the effect that the listener will want to hear a difference if they are biased. E.g. someone just forks out $200 on polypropylene capacitors, they WILL sound better to them than their existing $25 polypropylene caps even if there is no measurable difference.
Last edited:
Sorry if it was an uninformed question, or sparking HiFi guru debate, I am indeed pretty green on all this.. :/
I'm usually very analytical minded - "if there's a substantial difference, it should be measurable, right?" ...
But I know especially in audio not everything has been measured, let alone every combination of properties of components have been figured out.
I somehow want to keep an open mind without letting my brains fall out
Neperij.
Standard MPP caps are exceptionally close to ideal capacitors and standard noninductive resistors are exceptionally close to ideal resistors. Loudspeakers are, generally speaking, far more flawed than the capacitors and resistors in the crossover. If you want an objective improvement, you'll need to address what's actually bad about the speaker.
Pygmy, one issue I see with this design (Diva Simone) is the use of electrolytic caps. The Mundorf RAW (which I believe are unchanged in the upgraded parts option) are quite good (as far as electrolytic caps go), but remember that electrolytic caps have a finite lifetime (on the order of 10-30 years).
I find all Mundorfs to add something to the sound, have a few at home, have to cut some caps (I also have lots of jantzens and cheapo chinese ones) to see if there`s anything in there that makes them different (I doubt).
If you're not relying on the speaker designer to integrate drivers and crossover parts and enclosure to provide a finished and tested product, then you are effectively on a budget path. Does your budget go to testing the outcome in some objective manner, or are you just going to fit parts and enjoy?
You could of course bypass all the nuances of passive crossover parts by using electronic crossovers and some software to take on the balancing act yourself.
You could of course bypass all the nuances of passive crossover parts by using electronic crossovers and some software to take on the balancing act yourself.
Mario:
You should do a little research on the Mundorf Supreme's. As I understand it, they use 4x the capacitance by internally wiring 2 caps in series. So a 4uF cap has the materials and size of 2x 8uF cap.
Then there is the new EVO windings. I don't know what Clarity does, but their latest CMR models seem to have taken on more of a "puck" like shape than a soda can of the MR line. I wonder if they are following what Mundorf is doing in the EVO line?
Best,
E
You should do a little research on the Mundorf Supreme's. As I understand it, they use 4x the capacitance by internally wiring 2 caps in series. So a 4uF cap has the materials and size of 2x 8uF cap.
Then there is the new EVO windings. I don't know what Clarity does, but their latest CMR models seem to have taken on more of a "puck" like shape than a soda can of the MR line. I wonder if they are following what Mundorf is doing in the EVO line?
Best,
E
That sounds like a compelling reason to up my game again in 10 - 30 years
Well, yeah, as the curtain closes for some of us, the lifetime of electrolytic caps may not really be an issue
Nothing to add here that hasn't been stated (the mid-priced stuff will spec as well as the properly made expensive stuff and better than the philosophically made expensive stuff), but do mind your component layout to minimize coupled magnetic fields. You're in "high current" realm in passive crossovers, so the fields aren't microscopic. Keep things reasonably far away from each other and at 90 degrees.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.